Free Byu?

[cinepro]

I have already identified some: the loss of resources it takes to educate each student who enrolls there, resources that are intended for students expected to go on and make a contribution to the Kingdom and establishing Zion; the net loss of enrollment slots that could be offered to students who are eager to live up in every way to the conditions for admission and continued enrollment.

 

This is getting very repetitive. I've not seen any arguments here thus far to counter my position that are the least bit persuasive to me, and I don't expect to persuade anyone posting here right now who contradicts me, so I think we'll have to do one of those "agree to disagree" things and lay the matter down.

 

So you're opposed to any non-Mormons attending BYU, not just the "apostates"?

 

It seems like BYU makes this harder than it should.  LDS students who leave the Church should be able to transition to whatever agreement it is that allows non-LDS students to attend BYU.   Perhaps with an amendment that they won't poach other LDS students. 

 

Perhaps that's it?  There's no problem with an LDS student sitting next to a muslim or protestant student in class, because they are presumably well inoculated against such religions.  But it's too dangerous to have LDS students exposed to formerly believing LDS?

[rockpond]

Agency is the right to choose between right and wrong; it is not entitlement to escape the consequences of choosing wrong.

 

And for the umpteenth time, this is not an issue of religious freedom.

 

I reject the implied accusation that, by supporting BYU's admission and enrollment standards, I am disrespecting agency and religious freedom.

 

Correct, agency is not an entitlement to escape the consequences of one's choice.  And there are consequences to switching religions.  But BYU does not need to create unnecessary consequences.

 

Who's plan was it to force us all to do right?

 

I would argue that being able to choose one's religious affiliation without being kicked out of college is a matter of religious freedom.  I understand the agreement they enter into (I entered into it as well).  I'm saying that it is an inappropriate agreement to force young people to sign onto.  The agreement disrespects agency and religious freedom.  It says:  Mormons and non-Mormons are welcome to attend but Mormons cannot become non-Mormons while they are here.

[Scott Lloyd]

So you're opposed to any non-Mormons attending BYU, not just the "apostates"?

 

I've never said that or even implied it.

 

It seems like BYU makes this harder than it should.  LDS students who leave the Church should be able to transition to whatever agreement it is that allows non-LDS students to attend BYU.   Perhaps with an amendment that they won't poach other LDS students. 

 

 

BYU has made its choice, and it's a reasonable and just one, given the mission of the university vis a vis the Church.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Correct, agency is not an entitlement to escape the consequences of one's choice.  And there are consequences to switching religions.  But BYU does not need to create unnecessary consequences.

 

BYU has set just and reasonable enrollment standards given its reason for existence. It is not morally, legally or ethically required to forsake or alter such standards just to accommodate those who won't live up to commitments.

 

By your reasoning, any entity that preserves his, her or its rights "creates unnecessary consequences" to those who want to violate those right by claiming entitlements. By your reasoning, any party that insists that the provisions of a contract be honored "creates unnecessary consequences" to a party that wants to violate them.

 

 

Who's plan was it to force us all to do right?

 

 

Which anti-Christ in the Book of Mormon was the one who championed entitlements and freedom from consequences by proclaiming that

"^bwhatsoever a man did was ^cno crime"? I'll give you a hint. His name starts with K and you can read about him in Alma 30.

 

 

I would argue that being able to choose one's religious affiliation without being kicked out of college is a matter of religious freedom.

 

No. Being able to choose the college one attends and accept the conditions for enrollment is a matter of freedom. Unilaterally changing the conditions of a contract one has made is a matter of demanding entitlement.

 

 

 I understand the agreement they enter into (I entered into it as well).  I'm saying that it is an inappropriate agreement to force young people to sign onto.

 

 

 

Not inappropriate at all given the purpose of the university in relation to the Church. And as I've pointed out, most students at BYU do live up to the commitment, indicating that young people typically are able to do so.

 

 

 The agreement disrespects agency and religious freedom.  It says:  Mormons and non-Mormons are welcome to attend but Mormons cannot become non-Mormons while they are here.

 

Their agency and religious freedom extends to being able to accept or reject enrollment at BYU conditioned on their pledge to abide by a contract. They don't have any entitlement to change the conditions in the course of their enrollment because they've changed their mind.

 

This really has become repetitive, and you can't strengthen a deficient argument by repeating it, no matter how many times you try.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

Correct, agency is not an entitlement to escape the consequences of one's choice.  And there are consequences to switching religions.  But BYU does not need to create unnecessary consequences.

 

Who's plan was it to force us all to do right?

 

I would argue that being able to choose one's religious affiliation without being kicked out of college is a matter of religious freedom.  I understand the agreement they enter into (I entered into it as well).  I'm saying that it is an inappropriate agreement to force young people to sign onto.  The agreement disrespects agency and religious freedom.  It says:  Mormons and non-Mormons are welcome to attend but Mormons cannot become non-Mormons while they are here.

 

It is not about forcing anyone to "do right".  It is about consequences for not honoring their agreement with BYU and being fair to those that do.

[rockpond]

This really has become repetitive, and you can't strengthen a deficient argument by repeating it, no matter how many times you try.

 

Nothing deficient about my argument.  Your misrepresentation of it is tiresome... I can't tell if you just don't understand or intentionally choose to turn it sideways.

 

I support, 100%, BYU's right to determine its enrollment standards and hold students to those standards.

 

I find it morally indefensible to punish a student's decision to change religions assuming they are still willing to follow the same standards that non-Mormons at BYU are held to.  It's asking a long-term commitment from a teenager that isn't appropriate.

[why me]

At the United States Military Academy at West Point, which I visited just a few weeks ago, the honor code states "A cadet will not lie, cheat, steal or tolerate those who do."

 

I suppose if a cadet has a change of heart and decides he wants to tolerate lying, cheating or stealing among his classmates, he must bear the consequences, up to and including expulsion from the academy.

I think that those who complaon about BYU and its standards should also be critical of other schools that also have standards. The reason for these standards is to build character. Of course, in this day and age standards imposed from the inside such as with BYU will be unpopular for the 'freedom to choose' types that wish to be critical of the lds church. But they will lay off other institutions.

Edited July 23, 2015 by why me

[rockpond]

It is not about forcing anyone to "do right".  It is about consequences for not honoring their agreement with BYU and being fair to those that do.

 

You probably didn't read the thread but I have tried to state very clearly that I think BYU students need to completely live up to the commitment they made when they enrolled.  I did as well when I was there.

[Scott Lloyd]

Nothing deficient about my argument. Your misrepresentation of it is tiresome... I can't tell if you just don't understand or intentionally choose to turn it sideways.

I support, 100%, BYU's right to determine its enrollment standards and hold students to those standards.

I've not misrepresented anything. That's bogus.

I find it morally indefensible to punish a student's decision to change religions assuming they are still willing to follow the same standards that non-Mormons at BYU are held to.

It is not morally indefensible to require LDS students enrolling at the university to remain committed to the faith they have made covenants to uphold

It's asking a long-term commitment from a teenager that isn't appropriate.

This has already been responded to. The vast mjaority of "teenagers" who enroll at BYU are quite capable of and willing to make such a long-term commitment. They certainly don't consider it inappropriate.

Many more would be willing to do so, and that is a prime reason for not allowing those who refuse to keep the commitment to remain enrolled.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[carbon dioxide]

I can understand a situation where a student leaves the Church but still be allowed to attend BYU at non-LDS rates.  The thing that counters my thinking is that there are so many LDS who want to go to BYU but can't.  So there person who left the Church is taking a space for someone else who wants to go to BYU.  it does not seem fair to those people who want to go but can't because this person is taking a spot.

[Scott Lloyd]

You probably didn't read the thread but I have tried to state very clearly that I think BYU students need to completely live up to the commitment they made when they enrolled.  I did as well when I was there.

You have been unsuccessful at articulating a persuasive argument that it is immoral for BYU to formulate admissions and enrollment policies that support its mission.

[mormonnewb]

These students get a rather cheap education that just happens to be good. And these studentsknows the obligations and the rules that are required to remain in the school. Of course, views may change but if these views take them out of the church, well, the university has a right to deal with it as they see fit. I don't think that it is any different at other religious schools also. All schools have rules. And BYU is no exception.

 

To my knowledge, NO other major college or university has this requirement.  Certainly, Notre Dame students can leave Catholicism.  SMU students have leave Methodism.  There may be some small Christian colleges that require one to remain Christian, but they certainly don't limited it to a particular sect of Christianity.

 

That being said, BYU has every right to do what it does.  We ALL agree about that.  The real question is whether it SHOULD.  And the answer to this question is largely a function of what is the primary function of BYU?  Is it first and foremost an educational institution or a training academy?  These are not mutually exclusive goals.  West Point does an excellent job at both.  But, at the end of the day, West Point's primary mission of training military officers wins the day.  So, for instance, a student would have to leave West Point if he "converts" to pacifism and is a result is no longer willing to serve his required military engagement (or at least, not in the capacity as required by West Point).  And this seems appropriate.  This student's new beliefs make his enrollment incompatible with the primary goals of West Point -- training military officers.

 

Perhaps, the same could be said about students who apostatize at BYU.  If the primary purpose of BYU is to train faithful and active Mormons, then someone who loses their testimony of Mormonism is incompatible with the primary goals of the institution.  I think the problem for BYU is that it wants to be seen not as an Mormon training academy but as a full-fledged "university."  After all, the fact that it admits a small percentage of non-Mormons demonstrates that it is not solely interested in just training Mormons (in contrast, West Point doesn't admit ANYONE who isn't committed to future military service).

 

I think a more honest approach would be to name the school -- Brigham Young Academy, but be that as it may.  So long as it is generally understood that BYU is not a university in the traditional sense of the word, then it's probably fair game.  In the immortal words of Super Chicken, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred."

 

The sad part is that for too many young saints BYU is their only viable option because their parents are only willing to pay for a BYU education.  Perhaps, it is similar in military families, but in the Gentile world, kids usually have a wider range of options.  To say that these kids "freely" chose to abide by the "Thou shalt not change thy mind" commandment of BYU seems like a stretch when the other option was to spend the next 12 years working their way through school.  Sure, they had a choice in the matter, but mommy and daddy had their thumbs (and most of their torsos) on the scales as they "weighed" that particularly decision.

[rockpond]

You have been unsuccessful at articulating a persuasive argument that it is immoral for BYU to formulate admissions and enrollment policies that support its mission.

Your statement here shows that you have either misunderstood my point or that you are intentionally misrepresenting it.

Obviously BYU should formulate admissions and enrollment a policies that support its mission. I've never suggested otherwise.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I still don't know what BYU has against beards when the old prophets all had them except for Joseph Smith.

[cinepro]

I can understand a situation where a student leaves the Church but still be allowed to attend BYU at non-LDS rates.  The thing that counters my thinking is that there are so many LDS who want to go to BYU but can't.  So there person who left the Church is taking a space for someone else who wants to go to BYU.  it does not seem fair to those people who want to go but can't because this person is taking a spot.

 

That raises the question why any non-LDS students are allowed.

[cinepro]

No. Being able to choose the college one attends and accept the conditions for enrollment is a matter of freedom. Unilaterally changing the conditions of a contract one has made is a matter of demanding entitlement.

 

Maybe for the record we should see what the actual wording is on the "contract" that LDS BYU students agree to on admission.  Does anyone know where this can be found?

[sethpayne]

Maybe for the record we should see what the actual wording is on the "contract" that LDS BYU students agree to on admission.  Does anyone know where this can be found?

All students applying to a Church Education School which includes, Brigham Young University, Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Brigham Young University-Idaho, LDS Business College, and Salt Lake Center are required to have an Ecclesiastical Endorsement.

 

You may have a bishop, branch president or mission president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fill out this endorsement online for you or you can have your Ecclesiastical Leader fill out a paper form. LDS Leaders can be identified by name or by location. Applicants will be required to obtain a 2nd interview with a Stake Presidency or CES Chaplain.

Applicants to the following programs at BYU must also have two interviews to complete the Endorsement.

 

Bachelor of General Studies

English Language Center

Evening School

Graduate Studies

Jerusalem Center

Law School

Study Abroad

Students who already have an endorsement for the current Academic Year are considered "Continuing" and will only need to get one interview.

Students "Returning" after a period of more than one major semester, will need to get two interviews.

 

All students and applicants need a NetId to login. Make sure that you use the same NetId for your Endorsement and application.

 

 

https://home.byu.edu/webapp/endorsements/

 

From the honor code:

 

http://registrar.byu.edu/catalog/2014-2015ucat/GeneralInfo/HonorCode.php

 

Good Honor Code Standing

Students must be in good Honor Code standing to be admitted to, continue enrollment at, and graduate from BYU. The term "good Honor Code standing" means that a student's conduct is consistent with the Honor Code and the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Excommunication, disfellowshipment, or disaffiliation from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints automatically results in the loss of good Honor Code standing. Further, a student is not in good Honor Code standing if his or her ecclesiastical endorsement has either lapsed or has been withdrawn, or if the Honor Code Office has placed a "hold" on the student's records.

 

All students, upon admission to BYU, are required to observe the standards of the Honor Code at all times, whether on or off campus. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of misconduct prior to a prospective student's admission or readmission, those reports are referred to the Admissions Office for appropriate action. When the Honor Code Office receives reports of student misconduct after admission or readmission, but before registration for classes, the Honor Code Office typically notifies the student, indicating that a "hold" will be placed on the student's registration if the matter is not resolved to the satisfaction of the Honor Code Office by a specified date. The Honor Code Office also reserves the right to place a "hold" on the record of any student based on reports of student misconduct prior to notifying the student.

 

[thatjimguy]

I just learned about the Free BYU movement and its attempt to change current BYU policy regarding ecclesiastic endorsements.  In short, if a BYU student loses their faith in the Church, he/she will lose their ecclesiastic endorsement and therefore, be expelled from the university, evicted from university housing, fired from a university job, and basically, not included in any reindeer games.

 

Am I the only one who finds this requirement strange for an "institution of higher learning"?  The policy of BYU seems to be: "Come to our university and learn many new ideas and concepts, but don't you dare allow any of them to make any fundamental change to your identity."  I've always that this was the precise purpose of being "educated" -- that you leave college as a different person than the one who entered.  And that does not mean that you must (or would even likely) change religious affiliations, but that a true education would not foreclose that possibility.

 

Also, am I the only one who finds BYU's policy in this regard to be just a teensy bit inconsistent? After all, it isn't a requirement that one be a Mormon to attend BYU.  A student can worship Buddha, Krishna or even a head of lettuce and be admitted into the university.

 

Nor does BYU have a problem with anyone changing their religious affiliation.  BYU certainly welcomes those who wish to convert to our brand of Mormonism.  And BYU is "agnostic" in regards to a student converting from, saying, Catholicism to Wiccan.

 

All of that being said, I'm sure that I'm missing something here.  There must be some sound and just reason as to why BYU would enact such a policy (one that I'm not sure has a parallel in any reputable university in America).\

 

And while I'm willing to entertain all possible explanations/theories/apologetics, I'm not particularly interested in hearing that "BYU is a private institution and its students know what they are getting into when they enroll."  I am not challenging the legality or contractual enforcement of the policy.  I'm asking a "normative" question -- SHOULD BYU have such a policy and whether such a policy flies in the face of the entire concept of "education"?  And just so you know, I'm not asking for the point of "intellectual sport."  I'm asking because I have a son who will begin choosing colleges soon and I need to know if I should allow BYU to even be amongst his possible choices.

 

When they say "losing their faith" does that mean "I don't really have much of a testimony" or "I would denounce this church if I wasn't here" type attitude?

[mormonnewb]

When they say "losing their faith" does that mean "I don't really have much of a testimony" or "I would denounce this church if I wasn't here" type attitude?

Good question. From some of the posts in this thread, it appears as if SOME bishops won't pull the students ecclesiastical endorsement unless the student goes "full apostate" (Ie, publicly disclaiming their belief in Mormonism). However, I suspect that there is a fair share of bishop roulette going on here and a student would be wise to keep their doubts/disbelief on the "down low."

[Scott Lloyd]

Just noticed in re-reading that rockpond had said that BYU will enroll ex-Mormons. That's news to me if true. Is this a fact, or is he only surmising?

[Scott Lloyd]

Your statement here shows that you have either misunderstood my point or that you are intentionally misrepresenting it.

Obviously BYU should formulate admissions and enrollment a policies that support its mission. I've never suggested otherwise.

Unless it's a policy that rubs you the wrong way. Then you say it's "inappropriate" or "morally indefensible" or whatever. Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Raingirl]

.

 

 

 

 

The sad part is that for too many young saints BYU is their only viable option because their parents are only willing to pay for a BYU education.

Baloney.

 

Just because a parent may only be willing to pay for attendance at a specific school,does not mean it is the student's "only viable option".   That is, unless the student is lazy and unwilling to work for their own education.

 

There is no law requiring a parent to pay for a college education, so their inability or lack of desire to do so, in no way prevents a student from going to college.

 

 

If someone wants to go to BYU (or anywhere else) and can't get Mommy and Daddy to pay for it, instead of blaming BYU and the church and playing woe-is-me, they should simply get off their fanny, get a job, and get busy applying for loans and grants.

 

We know you hate BYU and all things Mormon, but you can't blame BYU and the church for some mythical student's lack of a college education.

[Scott Lloyd]

And just so you know, I'm not asking for the point of "intellectual sport." I'm asking because I have a son who will begin choosing colleges soon and I need to know if I should allow BYU to even be amongst his possible choices.

So it appears that nubee, though he faults Mormon parents for, according to his own nebulous supposition, virtually coercing their children to attend BYU, is not above applying coercion to his own offspring in their choice of schools.

It seems there is some projecting, if not a double standard, going on here.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[why me]

 

That being said, BYU has every right to do what it does.  We ALL agree about that.  The real question is whether it SHOULD.  And the answer to this question is largely a function of what is the primary function of BYU?  Is it first and foremost an educational institution or a training academy?  These are not mutually exclusive goals.  West Point does an excellent job at both.  But, at the end of the day, West Point's primary mission of training military officers wins the day.  So, for instance, a student would have to leave West Point if he "converts" to pacifism and is a result is no longer willing to serve his required military engagement (or at least, not in the capacity as required by West Point).  And this seems appropriate.  This student's new beliefs make his enrollment incompatible with the primary goals of West Point -- training military officers.

 

I think that the student would need to leave if this person's actions were unbecoming the actions of an officer. It is basically a charater building academy and not just

training officers.

 

Perhaps, the same could be said about students who apostatize at BYU.  If the primary purpose of BYU is to train faithful and active Mormons, then someone who loses their testimony of Mormonism is incompatible with the primary goals of the institution.  I think the problem for BYU is that it wants to be seen not as an Mormon training academy but as a full-fledged "university."  After all, the fact that it admits a small percentage of non-Mormons demonstrates that it is not solely interested in just training Mormons (in contrast, West Point doesn't admit ANYONE who isn't committed to future military service).

 

BYU has a wonderful reputation among top employers. One reason for this is the reputation of the students and also how the school creates a good learning environment. It is not a mormon training academy at all. But it is an university that wishes to train good productive, honest citizens for the competitive workforce. And yes, the student's character is representative of the lds church.

 

I think a more honest approach would be to name the school -- Brigham Young Academy, but be that as it may.  So long as it is generally understood that BYU is not a university in the traditional sense of the word, then it's probably fair game.  In the immortal words of Super Chicken, "You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred."

 

BYU is a reputatable university. It is not a third class learning institution. Why should the lds church lessen its status because of a character building policy? Also, the term academy doesn't have the same connotation of an university. It would become less in the eyes of employers.

 

The sad part is that for too many young saints BYU is their only viable option because their parents are only willing to pay for a BYU education.  Perhaps, it is similar in military families, but in the Gentile world, kids usually have a wider range of options.  To say that these kids "freely" chose to abide by the "Thou shalt not change thy mind" commandment of BYU seems like a stretch when the other option was to spend the next 12 years working their way through school.  Sure, they had a choice in the matter, but mommy and daddy had their thumbs (and most of their torsos) on the scales as they "weighed" that particularly decision.

 

If BYU would charge competitive tuitiion, most lds parents could not afford it. BYU has students from all over the world and many of these students would not be able to afford the tuitioin rates, if the lds church did not subsidize it. Also, since the lds church is basically a community of saints, the university has the obligation to have clear policies to protect the testimonies and faith of other students. What should happen if the student becomes someone who attempts to lead other students astray?

My  comments are in red.

[Scott Lloyd]

Baloney.

Just because a parent may only be willing to pay for attendance at a specific school,does not mean it is the student's "only viable option". That is, unless the student is lazy and unwilling to work for their own education.

There is no law requiring a parent to pay for a college education, so their inability or lack of desire to do so, in no way prevents a student from going to college.

If someone wants to go to BYU (or anywhere else) and can't get Mommy and Daddy to pay for it, instead of blaming BYU and the church and playing woe-is-me, they should simply get off their fanny, get a job, and get busy applying for loans and grants.

We know you hate BYU and all things Mormon, but you can't blame BYU and the church for some mythical student's lack of a college education.

Wow! Thanks for expressing so unflinchingly what was on my mind. Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd