Free Byu?

[rockpond]

A pity that they forfeited that privilege when they apostatized.

 

Fortunately for them, in virtually all cases, they can pursue their degree and finish their coursework elsewhere.

 

Exactly.  As Free BYU argues, the policy creates a coercive environment where LDS students cannot honestly evaluate their faith.

[rockpond]

So all they have to do is honor the commitments they made at enrollment.

 

Nobody is arguing that.  We're discussing whether BYU ought to even require adherence to such a policy.

[Mars]

This "unChristlike" label certainly gets thrown around a lot here by people trying to push a particular viewpoint or ideology. I find that at least as offensive as "entitlement generation."

 

he is saying the church's behavior in this matter is unChristlike.  (which i disagree with, fwiw.)

 

but your contempt is noted.  let's move on.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Mars

[KevinG]

Nobody is arguing that.  We're discussing whether BYU ought to even require adherence to such a policy.

 

It is consistent with the mission of BYU, a school supported extensively with the tithes of the members of the LDS faith.

 

BYU Mission excperpts:

 

"The mission of Brigham Young University--founded, supported, and guided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life."

 

 

"All students at BYU should be taught the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any education is inadequate which does not emphasize that His is the only name given under heaven whereby mankind can be saved. Certainly all relationships within the BYU community should reflect devout love of God and a loving, genuine concern for the welfare of our neighbor."

 

"In meeting these objectives BYU's faculty, staff, students, and administrators should be anxious to make their service and scholarship available to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in furthering its work worldwide. In an era of limited enrollments, BYU can continue to expand its influence both by encouraging programs that are central to the Church's purposes and by making its resources available to the Church when called upon to do so."

[rockpond]

...and as I pointed out before, in the Wards and Stakes where my classmates and I were in leadership positions, a great deal of mercy was exercised in order to help those who stumbled retain their status and complete their degrees.  

 

I suspect the "free BYU" movement is an attempt by a vocal minority of students whose decisions led to consequences they didn't like, to change the rules in their favor after second and third chances were given.  

 

A minority?  Yes.  Mercy extended?  Probably in many cases.

 

You might consider reading the profiles posted to FreeBYU.org for additional experiences.

[ERayR]

Nobody is arguing that.  We're discussing whether BYU ought to even require adherence to such a policy.

 

Should BYU policies be fair to those whose funds support it or should it favor someone who disdains the faith of those who support BYU with their tithes and offerings?

[Scott Lloyd]

Perhaps academic subsidies/scholarships should be based on expectations of their academic not on some other requirement like "growing the church."

 

The Church is what it is, and it has certain goals and objectives that it hopes to achieve, through its educational institutions among other means. You don't get to set limits on its expectations and aspirations.

 

Giving the "lost investment" defense only makes the church look more like a greedy corporation. Not sure you want to go there.

 

 

I absolutely do want to go there, and I reject out of hand your "greedy corporation" criticism. The Church's intent is to bless mankind, and it has to do that from a position of strength, to which all faithful members contribute through their time, talents and dedication. Those who take advantage of the privileges and then later discard the faith are a drain on the resources.

 

Lastly, BYU is not "asking" the students to go somewhere else. I have no problem with them "asking" but they are forcing through expulsion. The idea that this is NOT a hardship is ludicrous. Obviously there is variability to this but it IS a hardship when credits don't transfer and entire years of education credit are lost. Are you denying that this happens?

 

 

I was softening the language a bit, but I will agree it is a requirement that they transfer out if they place themselves in that position through their refusal to meet the conditions they agreed to.

 

The church is "forcing" students to act on a set of beliefs the student may no longer hold under threat of expulsion. Hypocritical. Immoral. UnChristlike.

 

This is an altogether unjust and over-the-top accusation.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

Preface - I am an alum of both a state school (Arizona State University, class of 1996, B.S. - Accountancy) and BYU (class of 1997, Master of Accountancy), so my perspective includes experiences in both public and private settings.

 

Fundamentally, I guess I don't have a huge issue with BYU not allowing enrollment of former members.  It is a private institution owned by a religious organization, after all.  However, I do not like the heavy-handed approach of expulsion.  That creates a scarlet letter of sorts and certainly encourages people to lie about their loss of faith.

 

I guess, I'd rather see such a student allowed to finish out whatever term they are in, but not be allowed enrollment for subsequent terms (as a compromise).  I realize the student is still "punished" and that changing schools is made more difficult by certain credits not transferring (i.e. Religion courses), but at least they don't have to say were expelled (someone enlighten me - is this considered an Honor Code violation?).  Furthermore, getting a college education these days is a far more transient process than in the past.  It really is quite common for students to begin their degree at one school, but finish it at another.

 

To those arguing the entire policy is corrupt - I get it.  I really do.  But, I'm pretty sure we could find all manner of unfair policies in just about any higher education institution.  BYU is well within its rights to do what it's doing.  I don't really like the way it is administered (obviously).

 

Perhaps I missed it, but does anyone have any insights into how other similar institutions handle such things?

[rockpond]

It is consistent with the mission of BYU, a school supported extensively with the tithes of the members of the LDS faith.

 

BYU Mission excperpts:

 

"The mission of Brigham Young University--founded, supported, and guided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--is to assist individuals in their quest for perfection and eternal life."

 

 

"All students at BYU should be taught the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Any education is inadequate which does not emphasize that His is the only name given under heaven whereby mankind can be saved. Certainly all relationships within the BYU community should reflect devout love of God and a loving, genuine concern for the welfare of our neighbor."

 

"In meeting these objectives BYU's faculty, staff, students, and administrators should be anxious to make their service and scholarship available to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in furthering its work worldwide. In an era of limited enrollments, BYU can continue to expand its influence both by encouraging programs that are central to the Church's purposes and by making its resources available to the Church when called upon to do so."

 

BYU allows non-LDS students.  So apparently that fits within their mission.

[Scott Lloyd]

he is saying the church's behavior in this matter is unChristlike.  (which i disagree with, fwiw.)

 

but your contempt is noted.  let's move on.

I know what he is saying. And I disagree with it too. Very strongly, in fact.

[Scott Lloyd]

BYU allows non-LDS students.  So apparently that fits within their mission.

Not the same situation as those who have not kept faith with their covenants.

[Scott Lloyd]

Exactly.  As Free BYU argues, the policy creates a coercive environment where LDS students cannot honestly evaluate their faith.

If they find it coercive, then they had best go elsewhere. BYU is not going to change its fundamental character (and I disagree that it is "coercive") to accommodate someone's identity crisis.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Should BYU policies be fair to those whose funds support it or should it favor someone who disdains the faith of those who support BYU with their tithes and offerings?

 

Definitely, BYU's policies should be fair to those who support it.  Have they ever taken a poll from those of us who do so?

 

I haven't spoken of anyone who disdains the LDS faith.  Choosing to switch religions doesn't mean that one disdains the faith they left.

 

From Pres. Uchtdorf (Oct 2013) --

 

One might ask, “If the gospel is so wonderful, why would anyone leave?”

 

Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

 

Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

 

In this Church that honors personal agency so strongly, that was restored by a young man who asked questions and sought answers, we respect those who honestly search for truth. It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves.

[rockpond]

Not the same situation as those who have not kept faith with their covenants.

 

"LDS covenants".  There is no punishment for those who have not kept faith with their covenants in other religions.  Changing faith, abandoning covenants while a student at BYU is allowed just as long as it isn't away from the LDS Faith.

[rockpond]

If they find it coercive, then they had best go elsewhere. BYU is not going to change its fundamental character to accommodate someone's identity crisis.

 

Removing this one policy would change BYU's "fundamental character"?  Wow.  I didn't realize my alma mater was so fragile.

[KevinG]

A minority?  Yes.  Mercy extended?  Probably in many cases.

 

You might consider reading the profiles posted to FreeBYU.org for additional experiences.

 

Reading down the list...  the first three did not get expelled, in fact they are graduates.  Just supporting the movement or telling about how they were afraid to reveal their faltering LDS faith.

 

The fourth is a current student who started as a "super Mormon" and will only attend BYU because her parents won't pay for another institution, who now claims the conflict is causing her mental trauma.  This sounds like bad parenting + entitlement to me, not a university policy issue.

 

#5 says his religious change resulted in loss of school, work, and off campus housing.  I'm thinking there may be more to his story.

 

Without time to review all stories, I'm still seeing entitlement mentalities with little or no details on what really happens in these cases.  Of the nearly half a million BYU alumni there are 21 stories on this site.  A quick review showed that several of the stories are simpatico but show no adverse actions taken against the people telling them.  One shows loss of ecclesiastical endorsement but does not include why.  

 

My impression that this is a small fringe movement with an axe to grind has been bolstered.

[rockpond]

My impression that this is a small fringe movement with an axe to grind has been bolstered.

 

I tend to agree.

[Scott Lloyd]

"LDS covenants".  There is no punishment for those who have not kept faith with their covenants in other religions.  Changing faith, abandoning covenants while a student at BYU is allowed just as long as it isn't away from the LDS Faith.

Apples-to-oranges comparison. The sense I get is that changing religious affiliations is not viewed in other faith traditions as being as serious as it is in the Church of Jesus Christ. Protestants, for example, might change from one denomination to another as frequently as one changes grocery stores. They only get upset, it seems, when a person is converted to Mormonism.

[Scott Lloyd]

Removing this one policy would change BYU's "fundamental character"?  Wow.  I didn't realize my alma mater was so fragile.

Removing the requirement that LDS enrollees retain their faithfulness in the Church would be a substantial change indeed.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

Apples-to-oranges comparison. The sense I get is that changing religious affiliations is not viewed in other faith traditions as being as serious as it is in the Church of Jesus Christ. Protestants, for example, might change from one denomination to another as frequently as one changes grocery stores. They only get upset, it seems, when a person is converted to Mormonism.

 

What about a non-LDS Christian who converts to Judaism.  That's significant.

[Scott Lloyd]

Reading down the list...  the first three did not get expelled, in fact they are graduates.  Just supporting the movement or telling about how they were afraid to reveal their faltering LDS faith.

 

The fourth is a current student who started as a "super Mormon" and will only attend BYU because her parents won't pay for another institution, who now claims the conflict is causing her mental trauma.  This sounds like bad parenting + entitlement to me, not a university policy issue.

 

#5 says his religious change resulted in loss of school, work, and off campus housing.  I'm thinking there may be more to his story.

 

Without time to review all stories, I'm still seeing entitlement mentalities with little or no details on what really happens in these cases.  Of the nearly half a million BYU alumni there are 21 stories on this site.  A quick review showed that several of the stories are simpatico but show no adverse actions taken against the people telling them.  One shows loss of ecclesiastical endorsement but does not include why.  

 

My impression that this is a small fringe movement with an axe to grind has been bolstered.

The thing about fringe movements in the age of the Internet and social media is that they can easily convey the impression they have far greater stature than they do.

[Mormonmaniac]

Could you imagine how screwed up BYU would be if they allowed students and faculty to continue going to school to learn and teach if they became anti-Mormons while going there.

[rockpond]

Requiring that LDS enrollees retain their faithfulness in the Church would be a substantial change indeed.

 

Like you, I graduated from BYU and I don't see how removing that policy would fundamentally (or even substantially) change the character of the institution.  I think we all agree we're talking about a small minority of students.

[Calm]

"Hypocritical. Immoral. UnChristlike."

Does that accusation also apply to those church members who agree with the policy?

[Scott Lloyd]

What about a non-LDS Christian who converts to Judaism.  That's significant.

Would it be viewed as a violation of covenants?