Free Byu?

[CV75]

If the church wants to hold students to that standard they should also hold themselves to that standard, recognizing that they can do and say what they want but that they will face consequences for their actions/speach, whether that be loss of good will with the public or loss of tax exemption.

Should they check with you first?

[Scott Lloyd]

If the church wants to hold students to that standard they should also hold themselves to that standard, recognizing that they can do and say what they want but that they will face consequences for their actions/speach, whether that be loss of good will with the public or loss of tax exemption.

We have a very recent decision from a respected accreditation agency that the enrollment standards at BYU are not a fit basis for withdrawing its accreditation.

 

It remains to be seen what will happen regarding tax exemption. I hope and pray the government will never be despotic enough to remove tax exemption from a private university for requiring adherence to its standards.

 

As for loss of good will, demand for enrollment at BYU remains so high that many good students who would love to attend it cannot be admitted. It also remains a widely respected institution. I expect that will continue into the foreseeable future.

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm sure they are aware that there are consequences for their actions.  I have yet to see the church sue someone for loss of good will with the public.

 

The threat of loss of tax exemption notwithstanding...  A threat that many groups who have been offended by the church stance on marriage have tried to encourage.

 

I'm kind of amused that you are preaching hypocrisy about freedom of religion when you are trying to dictate to a religion what they should do with their affiliated educational organizations and raising the specter of tax penalties if they don't comply.  Or rather I would be amused if so many people didn't buy into the notion that the Mormons should be threatened into compliance with their way of thinking using the tax code as leverage.

 

Unlike those students who would like to keep their academic privileged, I would continue to adhere to the principles I believe in even if I had to pay taxes on my tithes.

I'm not threatening to punish the church in any way. I'm merely disagreeing with their position. The irony works both ways. The church wants the organization to have its freedom while not recognizing the freedoms of the individuals within that organization to dissent without punishment.

 

The church is great about preaching religious freedom for itself but not so much for others.

[HappyJackWagon]

Should they check with you first?

No need to check with me although they can if they want. But holding themselves to a different standard to which they hold others is a clear example of hypocrisy. I suggest they not act as hypocrites.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not threatening to punish the church in any way. I'm merely disagreeing with their position. The irony works both ways. The church wants the organization to have its freedom while not recognizing the freedoms of the individuals within that organization to dissent without punishment.

 

The church is great about preaching religious freedom for itself but not so much for others.

They can dissent all they want, just not while enjoying privileges provided by the very institution they disparage.

 

There is no loss of religious freedom there. I would not expect to rail against Catholicism at a Catholic church without being ejected from it.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

No need to check with me although they can if they want. But holding themselves to a different standard to which they hold others is a clear example of hypocrisy. I suggest they not act as hypocrites.

Arguably you are the one acting the hypocrite, demanding that the university allow attendance by those who have apostatized from the faith and voicing support of government sanctions to force the university to do so.

[KevinG]

Guido is not happy with the Honor Code he signed.  He wishes to alter his agreement with you by opening a casino in the Wilkinson Center and suffer no adverse consequences to his graduation chances.

 

Nice church school ya got there... pity if something happened to  your tax exemption.

[CV75]

No need to check with me although they can if they want. But holding themselves to a different standard to which they hold others is a clear example of hypocrisy. I suggest they not act as hypocrites.

What metriculation standard is BYU not honoring?

[why me]

This "unChristlike" label certainly gets thrown around a lot here by people trying to push a particular viewpoint or ideology. I find that at least as offensive as "entitlement generation."

I understand your feelings. This term of being unchristlike is thrown around like a baseball. But what exactly does it mean? First, we have no idea just how christ acted throughout his life. We do have examples but certainly we don't have much about his life. We do know that he acted in anger with the moneychangers and I am sure that that was not the first time he acted in anger. Was his actions 'christlike' with the moneychangers?

 

People who use this term do it to get the lds on the defensive and nothing more. If I were a critic I would also being using it against people who defend the lds church. Why not? It works well. But it is an empty term.

[KevinG]

I understand your feelings. This term of being unchristlike is thrown around like a baseball. But what exactly does it mean? First, we have no idea just how christ acted throughout his life. We do have examples but certainly we don't have much about his life. We do know that he acted in anger with the moneychangers and I am sure that that was not the first time he acted in anger. Was his actions 'christlike' with the moneychangers?

 

People who use this term do it to get the lds on the defensive and nothing more. If I were a critic I would also being using it against people who defend the lds church. Why not? It works well. But it is an empty term.

 

See my sig line...

[why me]

Arguably you are the one acting the hypocrite, demanding that the university allow attendance by those who have apostatized from the faith and voicing support of government sanctions to force the university to do so.

Interestingly, when most of these people were wonderful members, they loved the BYU standards and honor code. They would support it. But something happens when one leaves or becomes a critic. Suddenly, the lds church can do no right. I find the transforation amazing. But we need to understand the psychological reasons for this. One cannot defend that which one has left. But one must cement their new status by supporting any initiative or statement that may be critical of the lds church. It becomes part of the life process.

 

Kevin: exactly. I didn't see you sig line but it is spot on. Sorry but I couldn't answer your post directly because of my limited status. I only have a couple of posts left before my temporary retirement from the board.

Edited July 23, 2015 by why me

[Scott Lloyd]

I understand your feelings. This term of being unchristlike is thrown around like a baseball. But what exactly does it mean? First, we have no idea just how christ acted throughout his life. We do have examples but certainly we don't have much about his life. We do know that he acted in anger with the moneychangers and I am sure that that was not the first time he acted in anger. Was his actions 'christlike' with the moneychangers?

 

People who use this term do it to get the lds on the defensive and nothing more. If I were a critic I would also being using it against people who defend the lds church. Why not? It works well. But it is an empty term.

 

 

See my sig line...

It can be eye-opening on occasion to scrutinize this accusation when it occurs and find that it is not well thought-out.

 

See post #326 herein, for example.

[Scott Lloyd]

On this matter of BYU suffering a "loss of good will" by reason of its enrollment standards, what evidence have we, other than the protestations and trouble-making by this noisy little group that the reputation of the university is being sullied because it insists that Latter-day Saints who enroll remain members of the Church in good standing?

 

Who, outside of Mormon circles, even cares?

[KevinG]

I'm starting to realize I'm a fool for reacting to those who do use "un-Christlike" or other similar accusations as a rhetorical weapon.  I'm never sure if addressing those accusations head on or ignoring the loutish behavior is better.

 

Is the Christ like response to call someone a whited sepulcher or turn the other post?

[Calm]

Report to the moderator. (render unto the moderator the things that are the moderator's)

Edited July 23, 2015 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

My tithing is also used by the church to provide these subsidies. I have plenty of respect for the tithing dollars being used. I also respect the church enough to expect them to be strong enough to handle a little criticism. They can handle it even if some on this board can't.

 

The church is forcing students to "honor their committment" by pretending to believe something they don't for fear of punishment. As discussed earlier, we don't choose what we believe. Belief is more like love- you know if when you encounter it. You act as if someone writes "faith transition" (or as you would call it- apostacy) on their list of To Do list for their time in college. People don't plan to have a faith crisis. Beliefs change regularly over time for each of us but for most it occurs within an acceptable spectrum.

 

So telling someone to just "honor your committment" is the exact same thing as telling them to "just believe what you find unbelievable." Again, where's the religious liberty in requiring people to believe the way you tell them they should. And if they don't, they will be punished. Very charitable.

 

If this kind of attitude truly represented the best of what the church had to offer it would prove to be a worthless organization. Fortunately, the church is much better than this kind of judgementalism.

 

Forcing them to honor their commitments, Not at all.  Forcing them to make choices, yes.  Welcome to he grownup world.

[ttribe]

On this matter of BYU suffering a "loss of good will" by reason of its enrollment standards, what evidence have we, other than the protestations and trouble-making by this noisy little group that the reputation of the university is being sullied because it insists that Latter-day Saints who enroll remain members of the Church in good standing?

 

Who, outside of Mormon circles, even cares?

 

Honestly, I suspect most outside of the Church would approach it with a roll of the eyes.

[ERayR]

So telling someone to just "honor your committment" is the exact same thing as telling them to "just believe what you find unbelievable." Again, where's the religious liberty in requiring people to believe the way you tell them they should. And if they don't, they will be punished. Very charitable.

 

 

 

No body is telling them to believe.  If they no longer believe the the honorable course of action it to resign.  Why don't they want to resign?  They will lose the subsidies they are no longer entitled to receive because of broken commitments.

[ttribe]

No body is telling them to believe.  If they no longer believe the the honorable course of action it to resign.  Why don't they want to resign?  They will lose the subsidies they are no longer entitled to receive because of broken commitments.

 

You seem very concerned about these "subsidies."  What if a compromise was for a student to switch to the non-LDS tuition rate.  Would you still want them out of the school?

[HappyJackWagon]

No body is telling them to believe.  If they no longer believe the the honorable course of action it to resign.  Why don't they want to resign?  They will lose the subsidies they are no longer entitled to receive because of broken commitments.

They don't want to resign because they don't want to lose years worth of education credit. It seems pretty straight forward. FreeBYU has even stated that they would be happy to pay the Non-LDS tuition so it's not about getting the subsidies. It's about completing the education they started without losing years of credit.

[ERayR]

If this kind of attitude truly represented the best of what the church had to offer it would prove to be a worthless organization. Fortunately, the church is much better than this kind of judgementalism.

 

 

 

 

Please remember, although BYU is a church school, it is NOT the church.

 

The church is great about preaching religious freedom for itself but not so much for others.

[Scott Lloyd]

Honestly, I suspect most outside of the Church would approach it with a roll of the eyes.

Is there a "loss of good will" because of it? That's the assertion that was made.

[ttribe]

Is there a "loss of good will" because of it? That's the assertion that was made.

 

I doubt it.  But I don't have anything to go from in terms of evaluating either side of the argument, other than my own anecdotal observations.

[Scott Lloyd]

You seem very concerned about these "subsidies." What if a compromise was for a student to switch to the non-LDS tuition rate. Would you still want them out of the school?

I don't think even that covers the full cost of the education without the subsidy. But someone who is better acquainted with the situation than I can perhaps enlighten us.

But setting all that aside, I think the university could argue that those few slots are intended for friendly non-Mormons, not as a safety net for apostates.

BYU is in a position to be selective in admissions, and there is not a thing wrong with exercising that prerogative within the framework of fulfilling the mission of the university and strengthening the Church.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

I don't think even that covers the full cost of the education without the subsidy. But someone who is better acquainted with the situation than I can perhaps enlighten us.

But setting all that aside, I think the university could argue that those few slots are intended for friendly non-Mormons, not for apostates.

BYU is in a position to be selective in admissions, and there is not a thing wrong with exercising that prerogative within the framework of fulfilling the mission of the university and strengthening the Church.

 

I've already gone on the record as to what I think about this whole thing, so I won't repeat myself.  My question to ERayR was to gauge just what it is that has him up in arms.  Is it the "subsidies" that he keeps making an issue of?  Or, is it something else?