Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[Duncan]

Just now, Calm said:

It is actually many years later, if then.  Still discovering things about my husband and myself after 30+ years.  My parents' relationship changed drastically in a few ways as they got older and weaknesses stopped being countered by mental awareness and reasoning of what was appropriate in a relationship (not judging, not taking stuff personally that wasn't meant personally, not figuring out that you needed to help the other with their changed needs as you required them to help you with changes instead of thinking it was business as usual and you were behaving the same way you always did...no, working in the garage for eight hours without talking to your wife is not the same as going to work for eight hours and not talking to your wife and just because he was home all day didn't mean he was there to work on your projects or talk to you about your latest interest for hours at a time...sigh, I so hope I remember this when we get that age).

Whenever phones came out they sold like crazy on the Canadian prairies because people were so isolated and now they can talk to each other without having to hitch up the wagon and drive a team to wherever. People can be distant but close or as you say in close promixity but emotionally distant 

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, waveslider said:

What if the addict turns out like this guy who cites his addiction to porn as being the root cause of his violent murders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEcKMfOhSow I would say that if there is threat of violence that would be a good enough reason.

I suppose there's always an exception to the rule. One would hope you have enough foresight not to marry a Ted Bundy. After all that is what the holy spirit is for. That guy was just plain evil and he is just deflecting the truth.

Edited December 29, 2016 by rodheadlee

[Duncan]

I think what Elder Scott brings to the table is worth sharing,  "The joyful news for anyone who desires to be rid of the consequences of past poor choices is that the Lord sees weaknesses differently than He does rebellion. Whereas the Lord warns that unrepented rebellion will bring punishment,¹⁶ when the Lord speaks of weaknesses, it is always with mercy. "

Not everyone who is an addict is doing so out of rebellion, but weakness, I guess the question is how to strengthen our weaknesses. I don't think our weaknesses ever go away but we are to deal with them somehow and some ways are better than others

[mrmarklin]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

I would strongly suggest that an addiction is fairly easy to spot.  By definition it overtakes one's life and one cannot function without access to the object of addiction.  Addictions are not easy to hide. 

I would suggest that most males of an age have seen porn.  Whether it takes over one's life is a choice. 

Without more information, it's impossible to know whether or not the young lady's husband is addicted, or just likes to watch once in a while.  Obviously in Mormon culture even that is seemingly unacceptable and so is kept secret.

The question you pose is a good one, and hopefully will be answered truthfully.

[Calm]

"Whether it takes over one's life is a choice."

Depends on what you mean by a choice.  Willpower is not always sufficient to overcome physical or emotional compulsions.  One may be emotionally unable to control one's impulses due to emotional damage as a child, for example.  Addiction to porn may, for example, be a result of unintentional early exposure before one's sexual expression and control has matured beyond sufficiently.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In short, might such tell-all disclosure in itself lead to problems with the relationship down the road, assuming the couple decide to go ahead with the marriage?

Having a successful marriage is a dicey enough prospect as it is without each partner having the goods on the other, so to speak. 

If I cannot trust you with my "goods", I don't want to be married to you.  It is that simple.

I fully disclosed my porn use with my wife before we were married.  It was a risky move and I didn't know how she would react, but if I was going to marry this woman, and live the rest of my life with this person, I wanted to know that our relationship was based in trust and transparency.  I didn't want either of us to wear any masks, which prohibit true intimacy.  Rejection hurts, but being genuine is the only way that you will find true friends, healthy relationships, and honest intimacy.  In fortune cookie style - It is better to be rejected for who you are, than accepted for who you are not.

I am fully convinced that my decision to reveal my porn use before marriage is the only reason that I am still married today. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can understand the need for privacy, but if it is used as an excuse to hide addiction, it will eventually become public, and no one will be happy.

Indeed, also porn is not a victimless crime, nor adultery. I am living proof of that, my bio-father let things get so bad that he ended up becoming a bigamist, and my mother and her three children (I the youngest) ended up homeless for a time. This is why my last name is "Lee" and not "Nation". By the Grace of God, the most decent man I have ever know, married my mother and he adopted the three of us (myself and my two siblings) from a life of despair and shame. There is nothing to be gained with one or more keeping secret aspects of their lives apart from a spouse...and ever more so, if to hide (as you said) such and addition. Becoming "one" as we are taught via scripture, in marriage means "one in heart, one in spirit, one in mind". Only then can such heartaches be avoided, and marriages remain in tact, and the blessings of the Gospel be fully realized. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Privacy and boundaries are needed for many in order to prevent the feeling of losing one's sense of individualness, that one has worth outside of the relationship, but there are ways to achieve this through respect rather than just not giving access to one's self.

I understand that, my marriage has worked best when my wife feels at ease with any social interaction online and otherwise. She needs that type of reassurance, as she was hurt badly by someone before we met. But, as my Father did for me (the one who adopted me), I did the same...adopting her (my) one year old daughter and a 41 year marriage. I have her trust still, my oldest daughter and five wonderful grandchildren as a result. 

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This goes way beyond some issue with masturbation. Mormons and other repressive religious groups aren't the only ones concerned. Here is a non-LDS source that addresses the question of the OP if you are interested...

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/2016/05/04/children-and-young-peoples-exposure-pornography

and 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10720162.2012.660431

 

As I noted I do not know the extent of the situation.  Certainly I wholeheartedly agree the proliferation and accessibility of pornography is a big problem.   However, the reason I posted a few links from a LDS person, albeit one who tends to the more liberal side, who is a therapist and also qualified to council on sexual issues.  Both the blog posts I linked to discuss the fact that the issues of sexual and porn addictions are not all that cut and dry.   And she sites other experts on the issue.   But your comments to me seemed to ignore that.  

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That seems to be the fallback position...it's the Church's fault. We blow it off so cavalierly at our own peril.

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/2016/05/04/children-and-young-peoples-exposure-pornography

 

I do want to make it clear I don't blame the church when someone becomes consumed with porn use. But I do think there are better approaches to the issue and shaming according to the experts will only aggravate the behavior for those who struggle.

[mrmarklin]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

No. This is after discovery, priesthood involvement, counseling and therapy, multiple relapses, and a sad inability to put family above addiction. I have seen the same pattern several times now. Surely you are not blaming the woman? Porn use may not be a sufficient reason for divorce, but the fallout of porn addiction is. I'm not sure what your point is.

I think the point is that there wasnt enough information in the OP to determine a bad habit, much less addiction. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

If I cannot trust you with my "goods", I don't want to be married to you.  It is that simple.

I fully disclosed my porn use with my wife before we were married.  It was a risky move and I didn't know how she would react, but if I was going to marry this woman, and live the rest of my life with this person, I wanted to know that our relationship was based in trust and transparency.  I didn't want either of us to wear any masks, which prohibit true intimacy.  Rejection hurts, but being genuine is the only way that you will find true friends, healthy relationships, and honest intimacy.  In fortune cookie style - It is better to be rejected for who you are, than accepted for who you are not.

I am fully convinced that my decision to reveal my porn use before marriage is the only reason that I am still married today. 

That may have been the best thing in your circumstances. I remain unconvinced that a prenuptial, tell-all confession is best in all instances.If I plan to marry someone and she has fully repented, if need be, of past wrongs, I have no interest in making her dredge them up for me.

 

 

[Avatar4321]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Important points, but in this and several other cases when presented with the chipotle of the addiction or the family, the men have chosen the addiction. At that point, what do you do? 

Porn addiction can go unnoticed by loved ones for decades. While It's much more difficult to hide substance addictions, the devastation is much the same when the porn addiction comes into the light of day. Should a person be up front about these problems before marriage, or is it better to hide them and go ahead with the marriage and family and then deal with it when it is discovered?

I think it's better to say so up front. You can't face issues in a marriage together without being honest with your spouse. And if you can't be honest with your spouse, then you probably shouldn't be getting married

[Avatar4321]

I can't help but feel shocked that in actually seeing people blame the church when a man lets his addiction to pornography destroy his marriage or blame his wife for being "too sensitive". Doesn't the man have any blame at all in this?

[Avatar4321]

54 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That may have been the best thing in your circumstances. I remain unconvinced that a prenuptial, tell-all confession is best in all instances.If I plan to marry someone and she has fully repented, if need be, of past wrongs, I have no interest in making her dredge them up for me.

 

 

if they've fully repented that's one thing, but if it's an ongoing struggle I think disclosure is the right thing to do

[mnn727]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Please don't turn this into a debate about what pornography may ot may not be,

I think you must debate what "a problem with pornography" actually means before you can discuss it: is it seeing people in risque' clothes? Is it seeing people naked? Is it seeing people involved in a sexual act?

And what kind of reaction does it cause: interested viewing?  actively searching it out? masturbation?

Until you define those 2 things, you're never going to get an answer worth anything.

[cinepro]

This article (originally published on Meridian but since deleted) would appear to be relevant:

Discussing Pornography With Your Future Son-in-Law

Discussion Points:

¨     Tell me about your experience with pornography over your lifetime.

¨     Is there a history of pornography use in your immediate or extended family?

¨     How do you define pornography?

¨     How have you healed from the impact of pornography on your life?

¨     Who helped you overcome your problems with pornography?

¨     How do you currently protect yourself from pornography?

¨     Have you ever wanted to stop viewing pornography, but couldn’t?

Edited December 30, 2016 by cinepro

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

if they've fully repented that's one thing, but if it's an ongoing struggle I think disclosure is the right thing to do

Of course. But that's altogether a different matter.

I would say the same about a potential spouse who is alcoholic or on drugs or has outstanding arrest warrants.

[Duncan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Of course. But that's altogether a different matter.

I would say the same about a potential spouse who is alcoholic or on drugs or has outstanding arrest warrants.

can you imagine that conversation at the Airport?!  all set to go on the honeymoon, more like Honey can't

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

I had a teacher years ago say you don't really meet your spouse until you marry them then it'll all come out one way or another

So you pays your money and you takes your chances

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

If porn is truly a drug then make it illegal. And porn addicts should go to the church 12 step program. 

I'm for making it illegal, but it would be difficult to do. There are LDS 12 step programs for porn addiction. 

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/?lang=eng

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

Of course, not all forms of adultery will be equal nor will spouses react to them the same.  A one time event is different than a decades long sexual relationship, which is different from a decades long emotional dependency.  Multiple partners vs, one partner.  Heterosexual vs. homosexual.  My sister believes her husband's homosexual affairs hit her harder than if he had heterosexual ones (I suspect she would have left him no matter as she had tried to deal with drug and booze bingeing and that was close to too much already), she interpreted it as a rejection of her own womanhood, even while intellectually knowing it was not being able to experience any woman that way...it didn't help that he more or less originally framed it that way as well, if she had been more of the goddess he imagined her to be, more loving and accepting of who he was, he could have controlled his impulses, etc.etc.  

Anyway, labeling use of pornography as adultery may be helpful if it helps one spouse understand why it is so serious for another spouse, but also might make spouses feel there is no help for a marriage so they give up tying to control their impulses (a similar example...a friend decided she might as well have an affair because her husband once told her if she even just kissed a man, the marriage would be over and she was in despair thinking because of a moment's weakness when she was feeling unloved by him, she had let another man express 'love' to her; thankfully both were wrong and mistakes were forgiven on both sides and better communication stengthened their relationship eventually).

There is always hope, even if it is fleeting. Jesus said to look on a woman to lust after her is to commit adultery with her in one's heart. That's the sin of pornography. He also said to do that will lead to denial of the faith. A high standard to be sure, but even virtual adultery will one day require humble repentance and the balm of the Atonement. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing when it can be given.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

"Highly successful and respected" people can be just as shame based and addiction prone as anyone else - they will not be attracted to truly healthy people.  It is like mixing oil and water.

Be the water, and the oil will naturally separate itself.  This is very simplistic obviously, but I am thoroughly convinced that the principle is true.  "Being the water" is more than keeping up appearances.  It requires more than a superficial self inventory, introspection and study to even detect any signs of toxic shame before we can even begin to address such issues.

Light attracts light and darkness attracts darkness.  It is an eternal principle.

Blaming doesn't get anybody anywhere, I don't recommend it.  Both the addict and the spouse are victims of the disease to some degree or another, that does not absolve them of their accountability to take steps towards healing.

You won't get any arguments here. I'm a witness to the destruction it can bring. The question is how best to defend against it.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think what Elder Scott brings to the table is worth sharing,  "The joyful news for anyone who desires to be rid of the consequences of past poor choices is that the Lord sees weaknesses differently than He does rebellion. Whereas the Lord warns that unrepented rebellion will bring punishment,¹⁶ when the Lord speaks of weaknesses, it is always with mercy. "

Not everyone who is an addict is doing so out of rebellion, but weakness, I guess the question is how to strengthen our weaknesses. I don't think our weaknesses ever go away but we are to deal with them somehow and some ways are better than others

Addiction is often the bitter fruit of conscious rebellion and the unwanted but bitter fruit of weakness. Either way, addiction becomes a barrier to wholesome relationships. Instead of dealing with the person we love, we must negotiate through the fog of addiction. Until the addiction is removed, it will be the entity with which we interact. It has no regard for anyone or anything else. It is incapable of feeling and seeing beyond its own needs. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

I would strongly suggest that an addiction is fairly easy to spot.  By definition it overtakes one's life and one cannot function without access to the object of addiction.  Addictions are not easy to hide. 

I would suggest that most males of an age have seen porn.  Whether it takes over one's life is a choice. 

Without more information, it's impossible to know whether or not the young lady's husband is addicted, or just likes to watch once in a while.  Obviously in Mormon culture even that is seemingly unacceptable and so is kept secret.

The question you pose is a good one, and hopefully will be answered truthfully.

Over the course of this discussion I have made it clear that addiction is involved, not just casual use. It started as a pre-teen and was kept secret for decades. It was discovered by accident. This is not the only instance of this kind of tragic situation with which I am familiar, but it is one I am at liberty to discuss.