Anatomy of a Failure: Divorce, Accountability, Responsibility

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t know guys.  I’ve sat in on enough presidency meetings and heard enough discussion about people’s personal lives to deny the claim that the church gets involved on a level that isn’t necessary.  Not with everyone obviously.  
My latest challenge is my in-laws ward- they are calling us monthly for info about them.  The ministering brother, the ministering sister and the bishop all feel need to be informed.  At this point, hospice is in charge.  We don’t need the ward nor do we want their opinions. 
 

I have clients who often will share that they have involved the bishop in their marital issues.  Porn use is a very common marital issue for which adult people will seek council from their bishop.  

When I was in the YW I was given information regularly about families of girls, sometimes I would claim a non-need-to-know status.  
 

I think our service focus lends itself to info gathering.  

 

I can see the porn use stuff, because that is considered a sin and involving the bishop with repentance issues like that is considered normal.  I guess I wasn't really thinking of info gathering equaling being involved in people's personal lives. 

I'm in a RS presidency right now and the RS president doesn't share most of what is going on with the members of our ward with us (her counselors), unless we specifically need to know for a certain reason or she has asked if the information can be shared.  And we don't ask her for specifics.  

But I'm sure it's not always like that.  I've probably been in presidencies where it wasn't like that and just don't remember the specifics anymore.

[nuclearfuels]

16 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

If we're righteous, we should be happy.

This is not true - or the should is wide enoguh to fit the earth thru it. 

Medication, counseling, employment, finances, and all other forms of opposition and trials refine us - even as Temple worthy people. 

 

[mfbukowski]

On 8/7/2023 at 8:24 PM, MustardSeed said:

I agree.  I’m often assigned to people with lots of personal problems, but I never share the info I get up the chain.  I think it’s expected that I will.  I won’t. 

But they are entrusting you with that, seeking help.

If you can't help them, you are breaking their trust.  So passing the info to whomever CAN help is essential. Free professional counseling is available, and you are denying it!

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

I can see the porn use stuff, because that is considered a sin and involving the bishop with repentance issues like that is considered normal.  I guess I wasn't really thinking of info gathering equaling being involved in people's personal lives. 

People do not understand how destructive porn use is; it can actually change the brain's pleasure centers to seek more porn than real human intimacy, so one can lose the desire for the "real thing", and the ability to act out properly with a real human.

Like any addiction, it is more destructive to the individual than a minor "sin", or " bad habit".

It is a sin against oneself.

Edited August 9, 2023 by mfbukowski

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

But they are entrusting you with that, seeking help.

If you can't help them, you are breaking their trust.  So passing the info to whomever CAN help is essential. Free professional counseling is available, and you are denying it

Edited August 9, 2023 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

But they are entrusting you with that, seeking help.

If you can't help them, you are breaking their trust.  So passing the info to whomever CAN help is essential. Free professional counseling is available, and you are denying it!

Sorry for the frenetic editing. 
I am a professional counselor, which is why I think I get assigned the tough cases.  
If there is ever anything that needs to be shared with the church structure, I would ask first for permission to share.  

If for example someone shares something personal like “my kid is telling me he is gay” or “my husband just got fired” or “I have cancer” I would never report such things to anyone unless my charges asked otherwise. That is partly due to my training as a professional and partly due to me wanting that level of privacy in my own life.  To me, a trusting friendship is more valuable than any sort of reporting program. 

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sorry for the frenetic editing. 
I am a professional counselor, which is why I think I get assigned the tough cases.  
If there is ever anything that needs to be shared with the church structure, I would ask first for permission to share.  

If for example someone shares something personal like “my kid is telling me he is gay” or “my husband just got fired” or “I have cancer” I would never report such things to anyone unless my charges asked otherwise. That is partly due to my training as a professional and partly due to me wanting that level of privacy in my own life.  To me, a trusting friendship is more valuable than any sort of reporting program. 

I think most people want someone who really listens to them and that is usually it rather than someone trying to solve their problems for them.  I don’t want my life to be seen as someone else’s problem because in my experience at that point they try to arrange things so they feel better about them rather than what works for me.  Not that they aren’t thinking of me, but they don’t usually take the time to check with me to be sure what they are doing helps instead of complicate my life.  They put effort in to doing something and then I have to stop what I am working on to accept the attempt at help, which has often prevented my goal from being reached unless I spend more time adjusting and dealing with details.  It’s wasting my time and energy in many cases

Edited August 9, 2023 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sorry for the frenetic editing. 
I am a professional counselor, which is why I think I get assigned the tough cases.  
If there is ever anything that needs to be shared with the church structure, I would ask first for permission to share.  

If for example someone shares something personal like “my kid is telling me he is gay” or “my husband just got fired” or “I have cancer” I would never report such things to anyone unless my charges asked otherwise. That is partly due to my training as a professional and partly due to me wanting that level of privacy in my own life.  To me, a trusting friendship is more valuable than any sort of reporting program. 

How about "I want to kill myself, but don't tell anyone.  I think next Tuesday would be a good day" ?

Aren't you legally responsible for NOT reporting some things?

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How about "I want to kill myself, but don't tell anyone.  I think next Tuesday would be a good day" ?

Aren't you legally responsible for NOT reporting some things?

She is not legally responsible for not reporting to the Church, only the relevant government agency and this discussion is about the Church.  
 

If someone is going to harm themselves or others, it makes more sense to call police or the appropriate authority because they can act to prevent harm where church leaders can only try and persuade people.

[MustardSeed]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

How about "I want to kill myself, but don't tell anyone.  I think next Tuesday would be a good day" ?

Aren't you legally responsible for NOT reporting some things?

If the threat of death is imminent, I’m required to report all such situations as I’m a mandated reporter **to the authorities**.  Not to the bishop. 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

This is not true - or the should is wide enoguh to fit the earth thru it. 

Medication, counseling, employment, finances, and all other forms of opposition and trials refine us - even as Temple worthy people. 

 

It's not true but it was taught.

"Soul mates' are fiction and an illusion; and while every young man and young woman will seek with all diligence and prayerfulness to find a mate with whom life can be most compatible and beautiful, yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price." Spencer W Kimball

This was a teaching that heavily influenced my personal life. I know I'm not the only one. And this sentiment still persists in Mormon culture. 

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

She is not legally responsible for not reporting to the Church, only the relevant government agency and this discussion is about the Church.  
 

If someone is going to harm themselves or others, it makes more sense to call police or the appropriate authority because they can act to prevent harm where church leaders can only try and persuade people.

Well of course, but that is not what she asserted.  I was trying to understand the logic of her statement; you are making unjustified conclusions.

I think I understand the difference between the government and the church pretty well.

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by mfbukowski

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well of course, but that is not what she asserted.  I was trying to understand the logic of her statement; you are making unjustified conclusions.

I think I understand the difference between the government and the church pretty well.

 

I think I was pretty clear, we must be miscommunicating. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

If the threat of death is imminent, I’m required to report all such situations as I’m a mandated reporter **to the authorities**.  Not to the bishop. 

Obviously.

You did not mention that in your original statement, and I still don't understand if you WOULD follow your legal responsibilities instead of your assertion.

Nevermind.  

Precision in speech is more important to me than others, I just was interested in how deeply you were concerned about disclosing confidential info.

It's not important, I was just curious 

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think I was pretty clear, we must be miscommunicating. 

Yep

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

To me, a trusting friendship is more valuable than any sort of reporting program.

I was wondering what this meant to you, that's all.

Still don't know, but no longer care.

I was looking for a discussion on the strength of this statement.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I was wondering what this meant to you, that's all.

Still don't know, but no longer care.

I was looking for a discussion on the strength of this statement.

In the quest for precision…

I would suggest in the future if your goal is precision to be precise where your interest rests.  The miscommunication would likely have been resolved quite quickly if you had 1) quoted, underlined, or bolded that part specifically when asking about it rather than just repost the whole post.

You had started to question her prior to her saying that and had suggested she was depriving people of getting free professional help by not reporting (presumably to church leaders since that was the context) what others told her of their problems and that first criticism was what I assumed was your continuing focus**.  You should have 2) mentioned your focus changed as you never clarified you were looking at her complete response to a client, moving the focus of the conversation from reporting to the Church to general.

My assumptions about who she would report to, btw, were quite justified (as evidenced by my being right about what she would do in reporting to government people, but not church in general***) because I know MustardSeed pretty well and have heard her discuss such things.

**https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75447-anatomy-of-a-failure-divorce-accountability-responsibility/?do=findComment&comment=1210156828

 

***I say “in general” for precision because I am certain if MustardSeed believes there is danger that church leaders could do something about to prevent physical injury or death in an imminent life threatening crisis, she would inform them….such as telling them to get on the phone and cancel SM because someone told her they were showing up with a shotgun and showed her the shot shells to prove their seriousness, but I am guessing she would call police first so they would be on hand if they were unable to grab them before as not only is that their job, but they are trained and she is well aware of her legal responsibilities.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 8/8/2023 at 8:17 PM, nuclearfuels said:

On 8/7/2023 at 12:44 PM, Meadowchik said:

It's very ingrained in Mormonism to be thoroughly involved in our personal lives, isn't it?

Yes - by design - and does that design exclude the same involvement when things are rough? God forbid.

I'm missing what the complaint is.  Across the decades, sometimes my wife and I have confided in church folks, sometimes we haven't.  Sometimes we've had well meaning people offer help, sometimes we haven't.  A couple times we had pushy people pry, and those pushy people failed.  Because my wife and I are grown adults, able to deflect pushy people.  And when deflecting doesn't work, we're both able to deter pushy people using various methods.  

Are you mad that there's too much personal involvement when things are rough, or are you mad that there isn't enough?

 

On 8/8/2023 at 8:22 PM, nuclearfuels said:

They adapted to a marriage of three partners, husband, wife, and God instrumentalized in the form of the Church. 

THat adaptation was not sustainable

Well, setting aside that people witnessing it from the outside rarely know the full story, it would seem like a lack of resiliency or the ability to change was a bigger issue than some institutional problem with having too many people care about you.

 

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/9/2023 at 4:27 PM, Meadowchik said:

if both are willing to pay the price

Here's the catch. Paying the price = counseling ,meciation, diet, exercise, etc

[LoudmouthMormon]

16 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Here's the catch. Paying the price = counseling ,meciation, diet, exercise, etc

I'm still lost as to where you're coming from here.  Are you pro or con counseling? Are you pro or con medication? Are you pro or con diet? Are you pro or con exercise?

I hope you'll be willing to clarify why you think such things are a 'catch'.  "I knew marriage would be hard, but I NEVER guessed I'd have to diet and exercise!"   Is that what you're saying?  It seems weird to be saying that...

Are you so desperately looking for someone, some thing, some organization to blame, that you're failing to look at the two people who got the divorce?  I'm not trying to accuse or belittle or anything, I'm honestly, after going through this thread and re-reading all your comments for the 3rd time, still totally clueless about what your complaint actually is. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Meadowchik]

19 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Here's the catch. Paying the price = counseling ,meciation, diet, exercise, etc

Sounds like you're implying that basically any man and woman who are basically healthy, mentally and physically, and have good relationship skills with each other, can succeed with happiness in their marriage?

[MustardSeed]

22 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Here's the catch. Paying the price = counseling ,meciation, diet, exercise, etc

Fatties need not apply 😩☠️

[Meadowchik]

On 8/27/2023 at 11:22 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Here's the catch. Paying the price = counseling ,meciation, diet, exercise, etc

 

On 8/28/2023 at 7:11 PM, Meadowchik said:

Sounds like you're implying that basically any man and woman who are basically healthy, mentally and physically, and have good relationship skills with each other, can succeed with happiness in their marriage?

Since you liked by query I'm assuming you affirmed it.

I don't agree and would say that such statements and implications especially by spiritual leaders are actively harmful to church members and their families.