Anatomy of a Failure: Divorce, Accountability, Responsibility

[nuclearfuels]

I'm saddened to have learned a couple in our stake is getting dirovced. 57 years of marriage.

He was a bishop several decades prior. She alwasy supported him. 

I heard there may have been some mental health issues that cotributed to the situation.

ALso their kids were in UT; she wanted to move from the east coast and he wanted to stay. 

tl;dr -

I feel accountable and I feel the ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends bear some responsiblty in this. 

I was told that ward and stake leadership can help only as much as they're asked to. 

The problem with that is that it essentially absovles the Church from all responsibility which is factually inaccurate. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm saddened to have learned a couple in our stake is getting dirovced. 57 years of marriage.

He was a bishop several decades prior. She alwasy supported him. 

I heard there may have been some mental health issues that cotributed to the situation.

ALso their kids were in UT; she wanted to move from the east coast and he wanted to stay. 

tl;dr -

I feel accountable and I feel the ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends bear some responsiblty in this. 

I was told that ward and stake leadership can help only as much as they're asked to. 

The problem with that is that it essentially absovles the Church from all responsibility which is factually inaccurate. 

Can you give more information?  Why do you believe that church members and the church itself is responsible for their divorce?

[nuclearfuels]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

responsible for their divorce?

After work and after tithing, Monday - FHE. Wed - youth acitvities. Thu - Datre NIght. Fri/Sat - Temple Visit. SUnday - church, meetings, etc. 

For a religion that asks a lot, to put it mildly - it is not acceptable to shrug and say: Welp, that couple never asked for help.  It's awfully close to the addage: He/she was looking for a way to leave the church, after a person leaves the church due to thier or the church's politics.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

After work and after tithing, Monday - FHE. Wed - youth activities. Thu - Date NIght. Fri/Sat - Temple Visit. SUnday - church, meetings, etc. 

For a religion that asks a lot, to put it mildly - it is not acceptable to shrug and say: Welp, that couple never asked for help.  It's awfully close to the adage: He/she was looking for a way to leave the church, after a person leaves the church due to their or the church's politics.

Are members of the ward saying that the couple never asked for help?  I'm still trying to understand the situation.  

It's really shocking when older couples (that everyone thought were fine) get divorced.  I've seen a few times, and it's always sad too.  What often comes out is that the marriage was rocky for decades or one or the other spouse had some real serious issues that finally boiled over.  We are all so good at hiding our problems from each other.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm saddened to have learned a couple in our stake is getting dirovced. 57 years of marriage.

He was a bishop several decades prior. She alwasy supported him. 

I heard there may have been some mental health issues that cotributed to the situation.

ALso their kids were in UT; she wanted to move from the east coast and he wanted to stay. 

tl;dr -

I feel accountable and I feel the ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends bear some responsiblty in this. 

I was told that ward and stake leadership can help only as much as they're asked to. 

The problem with that is that it essentially absovles the Church from all responsibility which is factually inaccurate. 

What are the pertinent facts showing that the Church (please include what you mean by "Church") is responsible? 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I'm saddened to have learned a couple in our stake is getting dirovced. 57 years of marriage.

He was a bishop several decades prior. She alwasy supported him. 

I heard there may have been some mental health issues that cotributed to the situation.

ALso their kids were in UT; she wanted to move from the east coast and he wanted to stay. 

tl;dr -

I feel accountable and I feel the ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends bear some responsiblty in this. 

I was told that ward and stake leadership can help only as much as they're asked to. 

The problem with that is that it essentially absovles the Church from all responsibility which is factually inaccurate. 

Anatomy of a Post: When your tl;dr section is about as long as the main body it probably lacks a lot of information.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

After work and after tithing, Monday - FHE. Wed - youth acitvities. Thu - Datre NIght. Fri/Sat - Temple Visit. SUnday - church, meetings, etc. 

For a religion that asks a lot, to put it mildly - it is not acceptable to shrug and say: Welp, that couple never asked for help.  It's awfully close to the addage: He/she was looking for a way to leave the church, after a person leaves the church due to thier or the church's politics.

Are you saying the Church put too much stress on the family or kept them too busy such that they didn’t have enough time together so they grew apart and therefore a different choice of where to live split them up, they weren’t willing to compromise?

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I feel accountable and I feel the ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends bear some responsiblty in this. 

I was told that ward and stake leadership can help only as much as they're asked to. 

The problem with that is that it essentially absovles the Church from all responsibility which is factually inaccurate. 

It's ok to have your belief about what may have happened. But what makes you think the problem was too much church service especially when there are just as many if not more couples who divorce and who are not active in any faith?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

It's ok to have your belief about what may have happened. But what makes you think the problem was too much church service especially when there are just as many if not more couples who divorce and who are not active in any faith?

Those all left the marriage because they wanted to sin.

Or was that leaving the church? Probably both.

Edited August 3 by The Nehor

[blackstrap]

It's called irreconcilable differences. After 57 years those ruts are quite deep. 

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/3/2023 at 3:30 PM, CV75 said:

What are the pertinent facts showing that the Church (please include what you mean by "Church") is responsible? 

I would be my brother's keeper from Lord, I would follow Thee

Mourn w/ those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, etc. Baptismal covenant

To be clear - the Church is not the only reason for the divorce, I am sure. 

At the same time - the ministering brothers, sisters, EQP, RS Pres, Bishopric, etc. - were they fulfiling thier callings and the divorce was never mentioned? Were they magnifiying their calling and the Spirit prompted them that the divorce was God's will?Of course not

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:22 PM, Calm said:

Are you saying the Church put too much stress on the family or kept them too busy such that they didn’t have enough time together so they grew apart and therefore a different choice of where to live split them up, they weren’t willing to compromise?

Good question. I suppose what I'm saying is - it's incredibly difficult and nuanced to balance work, family, church. When retirement comes - after the kids and callings, tithing and taxes, commutes and disputes - the idea that either marriage partner would simply agree - as if their own opinion doesn't count or have validity - the ward and stake culture that helps the parents build the family for decades does what - to help senior couples? 

[nuclearfuels]

On 8/3/2023 at 4:35 PM, Vanguard said:

But what makes you think the problem was too much church service especially when there are just as many if not more couples who divorce and who are not active in any faith?

I dont remember claiming this. 

My concern is - after all the Church asks and after all that we as members give, when couples are older, retired, kids are gone, etc. - then what? Does the responsiblity lesson - since the youth are generally the focus, as are converts?  It's insulting to our intelligence to require service, tithe, etc. for decades and then when you and your spouse are retired, be wished: welp, good luck. See ya?

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I would be my brother's keeper from Lord, I would follow Thee

Mourn w/ those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, etc. Baptismal covenant

To be clear - the Church is not the only reason for the divorce, I am sure. 

At the same time - the ministering brothers, sisters, EQP, RS Pres, Bishopric, etc. - were they fulfiling thier callings and the divorce was never mentioned? Were they magnifiying their calling and the Spirit prompted them that the divorce was God's will?Of course not

I disagree.  Very few people have true insight to the details and complications of a marriage.  People only know what couples allow them to know.  

My in-laws just split after 60plus years.  Yes they are 79 years old.  I guarantee no one knows the horrors of that marriage. Any church leader encouraging anything else would get an earful from me. 

[Meadowchik]

On 8/3/2023 at 7:00 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I'm saddened to have learned a couple in our stake is getting dirovced. 57 years of marriage.

He was a bishop several decades prior. She alwasy supported him. 

I heard there may have been some mental health issues that cotributed to the situation.

ALso their kids were in UT; she wanted to move from the east coast and he wanted to stay. 

tl;dr -

I feel accountable and I feel the ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends bear some responsiblty in this. 

I was told that ward and stake leadership can help only as much as they're asked to. 

The problem with that is that it essentially absovles the Church from all responsibility which is factually inaccurate. 

I think there are things the church can do to support people and promote healthy marriages. 

But sometimes divorce is the right choice. The church also needs to know how to support people in divorce.

Ultimately a marriage is the responsibility of the spouses. Anyone who wants to support them imo should focus on health and goodness, rather than staying married above all other concerns.

[Meadowchik]

5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I disagree.  Very few people have true insight to the details and complications of a marriage.  People only know what couples allow them to know.  

My in-laws just split after 60plus years.  Yes they are 79 years old.  I guarantee no one knows the horrors of that marriage. Any church leader encouraging anything else would get an earful from me. 

Yup. In fact sometimes a divorce and be a result of one of both people learning how to maintain their personal integrity. It could be thanks to good church lessons on righteousness.

[MustardSeed]

Also it sends me to the moon that people believe the church should be so involved in marital issues. Since when are laypeople qualified ? 

[The Nehor]

39 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I dont remember claiming this. 

My concern is - after all the Church asks and after all that we as members give, when couples are older, retired, kids are gone, etc. - then what? Does the responsiblity lesson - since the youth are generally the focus, as are converts?  It's insulting to our intelligence to require service, tithe, etc. for decades and then when you and your spouse are retired, be wished: welp, good luck. See ya?

My Mission President once said the one job he didn’t think he would get as Mission President was marriage counselor for senior couples. Some couples in the church lead detached lives in different spheres and then they retire and go on a mission and are now together ALL THE TIME. It doesn’t happen to most of them but it is a sizable minority.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Also it sends me to the moon that people believe the church should be so involved in marital issues. Since when are laypeople qualified ? 

Also who is going to be happy when their ministers suddenly start asking about their marriage?

[Meadowchik]

46 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Also it sends me to the moon that people believe the church should be so involved in marital issues. Since when are laypeople qualified ? 

It's very ingrained in Mormonism to be thoroughly involved in our personal lives, isn't it?

[Meadowchik]

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Also who is going to be happy when their ministers suddenly start asking about their marriage?

Honestly if I was miserable or very troubled by a situation I chose in order to follow the gospel, it could be a welcome relief for a leader to express interest and concern. 

I'm not saying that's ideal though, but it is often the situation.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I dont remember claiming this. 

My concern is - after all the Church asks and after all that we as members give, when couples are older, retired, kids are gone, etc. - then what? Does the responsiblity lesson - since the youth are generally the focus, as are converts?  It's insulting to our intelligence to require service, tithe, etc. for decades and then when you and your spouse are retired, be wished: welp, good luck. See ya?

You're correct - I think I misunderstood your initial OP.

Since when does the Church disregard - in the way you suggest - our older members? To the contrary, I myself see a continuous effort to help those older folks get to church and be included in all things having to do with the ward. I think you're using one example of an unfortunate divorce to broad brush how the Church deals with older folks.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 8/3/2023 at 12:16 PM, nuclearfuels said:

After work and after tithing, Monday - FHE. Wed - youth acitvities. Thu - Datre NIght. Fri/Sat - Temple Visit. SUnday - church, meetings, etc. 

"We're getting a divorce after 57 years.  Our full spiritually fulfilling schedule of service and marriage building was just too much for us.  If only we weren't surrounded by all the supporting love of ministering sisters, ministering brothers, elder's quorum, Relief Society, bishopric, and other ward and stake friends.   If only we hadn't dated weekly!"  said nobody, ever.

Dang nuclearfuels, I'm as happy to speculate as the next person over, but that scenario strikes me as plausible as one of them secretly being drug kingpin and the other was working with it but then her brother got killed by the cartel and she decided to blame the hubby even though the was there and tried to stop it.

 

On 8/3/2023 at 12:27 PM, bluebell said:

What often comes out is that the marriage was rocky for decades or one or the other spouse had some real serious issues that finally boiled over.  We are all so good at hiding our problems from each other.

👍

[CV75]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I would be my brother's keeper from Lord, I would follow Thee

Mourn w/ those that mourn, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, etc. Baptismal covenant

To be clear - the Church is not the only reason for the divorce, I am sure. 

At the same time - the ministering brothers, sisters, EQP, RS Pres, Bishopric, etc. - were they fulfiling thier callings and the divorce was never mentioned? Were they magnifiying their calling and the Spirit prompted them that the divorce was God's will?Of course not

You say, "Of course not," but I have no way of knowing from the information you provided. So, you are in the best position to do something helpful for the individuals who are suffering, and for any of those they relied upon to help them but who are struggling or lax in their discipleship, or otherwise failed in carrying out their obligations to God. You mentioned a couple of scriptures and hymns which are very inspiring.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I dont remember claiming this. 

My concern is - after all the Church asks and after all that we as members give, when couples are older, retired, kids are gone, etc. - then what? Does the responsiblity lesson - since the youth are generally the focus, as are converts?  It's insulting to our intelligence to require service, tithe, etc. for decades and then when you and your spouse are retired, be wished: welp, good luck. See ya?

As an older couple, this is not our experience; we find our callings quite meaningful and opportunities to serve more than we can say "yes" to. I have seen the dynamic where older people become invisible to younger people, a social issue which I see play out less in faith communities, and in our Church particularly. I would think if this is observed in a branch or ward, someone would mention it at it would be attended to. Look at the video presented in last Sunday's CFM class (ask your teacher if your class missed it)!