Vanguard

Ha! Finally I found this. Was just now for the first time reading the thread and the first thing that popped into my head was Mfb!! : ) He too has played with my head a bit. I wish I could find him to continue the exchange about the notion that ALL of these things do not have to be as we have conceptualized over time.

For me it's a really big deal and perhaps bigger than it should be. My wife and I have commented on this dynamic over the past almost 30 yrs. There runs something really deep about family members who have left the church and who now drink. I remember my youngest brother (I have 2 younger brothers who have left the faith) was polite enough to ask when both couples were out to dinner if we'd mind his purchasing a beer for dinner. Of course we said yes (what else would we say?!) but I found it hard. I have commented with my wife that I'd have an easier time with former member siblings and/or adult children having sexual relations outside of wedlock over them becoming drinkers the rationale being the sexual desire is more innate but the desire to drink not so much. And why would that be such a big deal? Who knows... I have seen Facebook photos of former active friends holding a drink and it brings me down. If my active member wife were to express a desire to start drinking I don't know that I could handle it over the long haul. I suspect your wife may struggle with something of the same thing. We decided to let our 24 yros have hard liquor in his bedroom (in our house) for when he needed to 'take the edge off'. It feels like a deal with the devil though. : ( I don't think I could bring myself to purchasing it for our children when out on the town. I salute you both. Talk to your wife. Process the experience with her. Concede where you should and challenge her if appropriate. Recognize these things may carry import beyond what you might have imagined. God bless you both. : )

I believe there will be some teachers (more likely in youth SS) who will simply wing it. 5-10 mins to get started will leave scarcely enough time and some teachers will decide it's not worth it.

Agreed. And perhaps part of that transformation is a shift in perspective re: what constitutes a 'blessing from heaven'? Sure there are countless folks who enjoy good health and the like but who don't pay any form of tithing. I wonder how many attribute this good health to their God (if they even have such a God)? Recognizing all of our good fortune coming from an all-loving God probably begets the transformation you speak of. I'm not saying there are no material and/or spiritual benefits to paying my tithing. I however do not want to spend my time trying to figure out what those particular blessings are (hence the transactional nature of such an endeavor). I thank my God for everything I have and will continue to pay tithing regardless.

In my case, it goes even deeper than that. It's not so much a prosperity-minded gospel profile, but rather absolute disillusionment when I believe I need Him the most in a certain way and I don't get it.

Hey guys, just a note to say 'thanks' for engaging. It's unbelievable that I can go from a resident 'looky-loo' for many months to having a thread occupy my mind throughout the entire day. ; )

I'm not bugged either that is until said individual 'crashes' because the particular blessing didn't happen (see Patriarchal Blessings promising companionship only to be told it must mean in the next life). Nonetheless, I don't begrudge anyone for making sense of things in a way that works for them. I don't care for it when it's taught from the pulpit as though it were a given for everyone.

Agreed. Even if the brothers had been killed in that way, it does not invalidate anything other than the possibility they misread the Lord's intent. I do take exception to the 'expecting' blessings though. I would rather phrase it as 'hoping for'. ; )

No, I don't think there is right now. As long as it's still taught I don't think we should be countering it. Is there room for finessing the possibility of a different mindset? Absolutely. ; )

I think the transactional mindset of obedience-begets-many wonderful blessings is actually worse than the 'vending machine' analogy. It's more like a kid in Willie Wonka's chocolate factory salivating for all the wonderful 'sweets' there are to be had if one can just be obedient. It's also a significant issue brought up among those who do not hold a belief in God as to why we believe in a God in the first place. Is my belief really just predicated on what I think I can get if I vow my allegiance to a supernatural being? Eeek. : (

I don't know how the 'law irrevocably decreed in heaven' pertains to me? I don't believe these types of passages should be interpreted in any way as a charge to figure out the connection between the laws and the supposed blessings that flow from obedience to said law though this effort seems to have taken hold among the laity. The classic law-blessing connection is the payment of tithing (and a close 2nd would be 'calling election made sure'). For scripture to claim that the 'windows of heaven will be opened' as a result of my paying tithing unnecessarily leads me down a path of looking for what I consider to be evidences of said blessings bestowed on me. That's not a good mindset. But how can the member escape this effort? S/he is told continuously that blessings will flow. It actually makes sense the member would in turn look for said evidence. : ( I would rather think that my obedience hones my perception of my relationship to God and draws my attention to those things in my life that I have always taken for granted (i.e., my breath, my ability to think, my ability to ambulate, etc). I have stated from the pulpit and to my immediate family continually that if I die tomorrow I want to believe I was the luckiest man to live. Perhaps that is the blessing of our obedience and nothing more.

And therein lies what I believe is the crux of the dilemma. I follow the WofW because I want to be obedient to what I believe my Father-in-Heaven would want and I believe my physical health is better than what it would be if I didn't. I don't want to make any claims about having avoided 'x,y,z' physical ailment as a result of my WoW obedience. In fact, I don't think I can. On a more personal note, you appear to have endured quite a bit over the last many years and yet you still claim allegiance to your God. You have not turned you back substantively against Him. Instead, you are seeking meaning from those experiences and how it may relate to your relationship with Him. Perhaps, that is the blessing?

I would go a step further to stay not only is there no specificity to said blessing but that many times I wouldn't recognize if it bit me. ; )

This is where I think I get hung up. Taking this literally, I'm sure it would trigger my neurotic nature of trying to figure out which law I should obey in order to trigger which blessing. Over the last few years I am coming to the conclusion that I'd rather not be interested in trying to figure it out. It's better for me to obey because I believe it serves my 'human engine' better. After all, the laws of the Gospel are simply a recipe for making the 'human engine' run at its peak performance, are they not? What transpires as a result of this obedience I'd rather leave in God's hands. I'd rather my motivation be because I love the Savior and not because I desperately want something from him. I'm remined of my good friend who had recently converted to the Gospel many years ago. Tithing had been an issue because he had a young family and was struggling quite a bit. He invited my wife and I over one night in part to inform us that he and his wife and decided to pay their tithing as an exercise of faith. He followed this up by announcing that not a day later his landlord had shifted the rental amount by $100! My wife quickly exclaimed something to the effect -'See? You made the sacrifice and are now reaping the blessings!' With a wily eye, my friend quickly retorted that the payment was increased by $100. ; )

Greetings, all. I attended our GD class yesterday to see how well our brand new teacher would do. We recently reorganized the ward boundaries in the stake necessitating a whole slew of new callings. Our good brother opened the class with questions regards to determining how we can receive particular blessings based on obeying certain commandments. The class quickly bogged down in a way I don't think he anticipated. I myself found it quite confusing and frustrating in that I didn't agree with what appeared to be the initial premise that we can determine blessings and the commandments connected to them. Question - How would you characterize the scriptural passages that suggest this link between certain blessings and commandments? Is there another way to view the reception of blessings? - I will 'hold on showing my own cards' to see where the conversation goes. ; )