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  1. Oh, this is easy, and obvious. The people involved in the battle almost never budge a single dang inch in any debate. However, the lurkers are absolutely open to the notions being argued back and forth, the lurkers will make up their minds based on what they perceive is the best argument, and the lurkers are the reason why the debate is important. This thread, for instance: Just look at that view count! Hundreds upon hundreds of people witnessed you show up with your big important point. Hundreds watched Smac's thorough and relevant rebuttal. Hundreds watched your absolute lack of response beyond getting frustrated because nobody is discussing or dialoguing with you. Hundreds! Of! People! watched you do a dramatic exit, including the emotional crescendo of deleting your opening post. Honestly friend, how many of them do you think SHOULD have been persuaded by your display?
  2. So, just playing devil's advocate here, this is the response you'd get. Carbon, why are you so against the constitution of the United States? What exact problem do you have with the 1st amendment? What are you up to, that you're trying to retaliate against people exercising their first amendment rights to stand in public and film? These folks never bothered you at your home, what nerve did we touch that you are ramping up schoolyard bullying tactics like this? They'd of course be filming this encounter. Then they'd post it on Youtube with the name like "Anti-american jerk follows private citizen to home and invades privacy". How many views/likes/shares the video would get, depends on how angry or stupid you get. If you get riled up enough to try to grab a camera or make physical contact, then the cops show up, the video goes viral, and maybe dude makes some money out of you in the ensuing assault case. So yeah, if you think that's worth your time, and a good risk for some worthy return, you go for it.
  3. My family has been on the receiving end of religious discrimination from a Christian organization. It was a Christian-based homeschool educational cooperative run out of our local mega-church. We involved our kids there for 4-5 years. It was a large social event, as the mommies brought their kiddos and sent them to classes, while the moms talked and socialized and worked on laptops and whatnot. They all loved my wife and daughters, and when they found out we were LDS, they loved us even more. The one single instance of someone having a problem with Joseph Smith resulted in that person being taken away and educated about Christlike love, while wife and kids were almost drowned with an increase of love-bombing that would give the best Relief Society fellowshipping event a run for it's money. My wife was so popular, there were numerous requests that she sign up to teach a few classes. We reviewed the "statement of faith" she would have to sign, and most of the dozen-or-so points were no problem, but we just couldn't jump on board with the one dealing with affirming the Trinity and accepting truth found in the Nicene council as binding. We let them know. They were sad my wife couldn't teach. They continued to love bomb us. Moral of the story: Discrimination isn't always a bad thing.
  4. Well, it's a separate topic, but yeah, people who get horrified at things no matter what the context, don't get their mind changed by context. It's a tautology, but one that applies to plenty of people. But not everyone, hence, the tactic of removing the context increases the effectiveness of the spun message.
  5. Heh. I get the temptation, but I also understand why this is not a smart response. People have been asking for a fight and then claiming victim when the fight arrives, for fun and profit, for centuries. Siblings learn how to provoke their little brother to hit them right as mom is walking into the room. AntifaTube has endless videos of innocent protesters getting maced and clubbed, without the prior 10 minutes of context where they ignore all the police commands to disperse. And yes, loud jerks with cameras show up to make people uncomfortable and then capture a disproportionate response, sometimes making money in the ensuing lawsuit. If I remember correctly, Denson and the guy who hidden-cameras the temple ceremonies pulled something similar. This was after their original video where Denson takes the pulpit to call out the guy for rape, but before their loud and public break up. There was another video, where they actually had two cameras planted in the pews. Denson takes her turn bearing her testimony, and a guy in the 2nd row very obviously holds up his phone to record the whole thing. And a third cameraperson behind that, captured some pear-shaped suit full of adrenalin and righteous indignation, got shovey at the first cameraman. That video seems to have disappeared from YouTube, I'm guessing because charges of assault got filed and lawyers were involved. Yeah, you don't bring a bus of Samoans to a 1st amendment auditing party. Not unless you wanna get everyone but the auditors arrested and sued.
  6. Holy crap that guy. This is the greatest argument against being a member of the church I've found: If I converted to Judaism, I could change my screen name to "angry yente".
  7. The guidelines were issued in 2016. “Security Guidelines for Church Meetinghouses" was distributed throughout US and Canada. It's mainly about what to do if someone is on the property or crashes a meeting. There's also a section on armed intruders or active shooters - the church favors the "Run/Hide/Fight" approach, which is IMO one of the best approaches for most businesses/churches/assembled groups.
  8. Absolutely horrible. Disgusting. Reprehensible behavior. You and I have no disagreement here. Well, you haven't heard of them because without the shock and yelling and stuff, they're not as popular. But respectful auditors don't trespass, harass anyone, or invade anyone's privacy. From what I can tell, they are absolutely in the minority of everyone who grabs a camera and goes out looking to look superior and play a gotcha game. Jeff Gray is probably the best of the well-mannered respectful ones. Here is an example of a respectful audit. There are maybe half a dozen others who try hard to reach the bar Jeff Gray sets. Oh, most of 'em are, I'd agree. For every hundred or so jerkwad auditors, there may be one or two who are capturing legitimate abuses from bad cops, or other nefarious public servants abusing their power. That's the "need" - exposing bad public officials, holding them accountable, pointing out departmentwide abuses and training issues, stuff like that.
  9. Yep, the "1st amendment audit" community has polite folks and immature idiot rabble rousers. Nasty Nathaniel is one of the more polite ones. In a way, I get them. People should be able to stand in a public space, and engage in constitutionally protected activity, without being harassed or arrested. And the fact that cameras freak people out so much, that assaults and arrests are easy to come by, means I can actually applaud a calm and respectful auditor for their efforts to educate and inform people. But no, inciteful rude [expletive deleted]'s are just immature children. Probably beat up by their older siblings, and haven't matured into adulthood even though they may be in their 20's or 30's.
  10. I think about how God reveals certain things to His prophets, and He also allows us to figure things out for ourselves. The human race went umpteen thousands of years of recorded history, before coming to grips with the reality of mental illness, for example. We had to figure out germ theory for ourselves, and other advances in medicine that expanded our lifespans, usually because of reduced infant mortality. My wife (who was treated horribly by LDS folks who pretended to know better) has a simple saying. "I trust God to act like God, and man to act like man."
  11. I like the message of tolerance. I'm big on accepting folks with a different point of view, and respecting their choices when they might not embrace those beliefs. I wonder - can you show me where I can find the acceptance, tolerance, and respect for folks that do not embrace certain LGBTQA+ beliefs, in the lyrics? You mean like here? Physician, heal thyself.
  12. It dawns on me. Out of the population of folks with ties to both the church and the gay community, I wonder... How many of them who are ok with this video, had a big problem when church announced we wouldn't baptize children in same-sex households?
  13. You know the thread is hot when Sonata stops by to pop her own popcorn on it.
  14. Well, in fairness, I guess, the MoTab did sing the Black Speech of Mordor for a Lord of the Rings PC game back in the day. So just singing evil things doesn't necessarily make you evil. I guess.
  15. Here's an article that further explores the event: https://latterdaysaintmusicians.com/the-tabernacle-choir-at-temple-square/the-mormon-tabernacle-choir-and-the-san-francisco-gay-mens-chorus-blend-their-voices-to-build-musical-bridges-of-understanding-and-unity At the risk of drowning everyone in irony, here are some excerpts (bolding and underlining mine): Irony.
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