Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[MorningStar]

Divorce is happening too often, but a woman should not have to remain married to a man who is violating and raping her.  And actually he filed for divorce because she just couldn't get over it.  She was willing to continue therapy while separated, but he thought she was making a big deal out of nothing.  This "poor guy just wants to have sex with his wife" stuff needs to stop.  No one is entitled to sex.  It is supposed to be an experience that unites a couple - not one partner violating the other. 

[Calm]

Rod, ignoring what came before in their marriage, there came a point where her husband tried to rape her and demonstrated he would continue to do so if able (thus the locked door and when that didn't work, the divorce).  Do you think it is wrong of her to remove him from the house in order to protect herself and instead she should allow him to stay there and attack her?

Without the divorce, she has less legal ability to require him to stay away from her, putting her at risk for extreme physical harm (rape is one of the worse things that can happen to a person).  As MS stated, he has demonstrated no inclination to control himself.  He was not taking "don't rape me" seriously.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Divorce is happening too often, but a woman should not have to remain married to a man who is violating and raping her.  And actually he filed for divorce because she just couldn't get over it.  She was willing to continue therapy while separated, but he thought she was making a big deal out of nothing.  This "poor guy just wants to have sex with his wife" stuff needs to stop.  No one is entitled to sex.  It is supposed to be an experience that unites a couple - not one partner violating the other. 

I actually get angy at God for making some men the way He did. I might get struck by a lighting bolt for doing that. But if a woman isn't in the mood all the time, it does feel like a sort of rape. 

Back to pornography, I see it being okay if a woman/man is slightly frigid without viewing something to get them in the mood. Too bad she/he can't get in the mood another way. But in this circumstance it might help save a relationship that relies on a physical relationship too.

I hate porn though. So hopefully if used it is more like reading the book "The Joy of Sex" or something. 

[Calm]

There are plenty of husbands who have lower sex drives than their wives.  Eventually this might get recognized by society.  (Your comment including men in "frigid" refers to this, of course).

They probably go through some very complicated feelings as well, such as questioning their manhood, their wives' attachment to them, probably experience disgust at the situation if they feel forced into it as well.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Calm

[provoman]

 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not attacking Rod.  I am trying to understand his position and hoping he understands mine.  He is too good of a guy for me to even think he actually means what is implied by his comments, imo, so I am assuming miscommunication took place.  That is why I made what happened clearer as well as asked for clarification from Rod.

As to the first post, the secret taping without her knowledge was mentioned.  And I mentioned the other aspects in the later posts, underlining the significance of what MS said because I recognize that the first post could be confusing to some about the time.

But we can deal with only what MS referred to if Rod prefers (I can see how my lengthy response would make everyone uncomfortable, but I also think it is important to realize the implications of these kinds of actions as I have seen too many dismiss stuff as 'sex play').

One of the problems with porn is its effects are dismissed or blamed on something else, in this case it appears that Rod thinks the wife depriving the husband of physical expression led to porn.  I think it is important to realize that is rarely the case and even if it was in this case (which it wasn't), watching porn is one thing...videotaping your spouse having sex with you without her or his knowledge so you have essentially turned your spouse into another one of your porn objects should never been seen, imo, as "understandable". It is a reprehensible act for a spouse to do to their loved one.  It is that act I am flabbergasted that Rod sees as "understandable" as he is so respectful to women and his wife.

You have a very accusatory way of trying to understand someone.  You attacked or made accusations  using information you not presented nor anyone else. 

This dicussion has gotten stupid and instead of "trying to understand" each other it has become a dogpile. 

And saying sometjing like "he wanted his wife to do what he saw in the porn" doesnt really express much. But like I said, this discussion has gotten stupid and onesided.

Edited January 2, 2017 by provoman

[provoman]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are plenty of husbands who have lower sex drives than their wives.  Eventually this might get recognized by society.

Also plenty of wives (lds even) who watch pornographic material.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, provoman said:

You attacked or made accusations  using information you not presented nor anyone else....

 

I am thinking you didn't read my posts then.  Or you are expecting a level of details that would be censored.

The essential detail imo is the timing, which was the porn came first and then the rejection, not the rejection as described by MS... then the porn as Rod had apparently assumed given his first post..  I stated this in my first post.  I was not asked by Rod "how do you know this" so I assumed he accepted it as fact.  I also kept pointing it out in other posts.

As far as I can tell now, Rod appears to see the timing as irrelevant.  I hope he takes the time to clarify.

 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, provoman said:

Also plenty of wives (lds even) who watch pornographic material.

And read pornography as well.  I think it is unfortunate it affects more people, but if it becomes recognized as a human problem, and not a male problem, I think that eventually may help avoiding and healing.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, MorningStar said:

My friend's husband is an alcoholic.  He almost died last year.  Maybe if her non-alcoholic beverages were more delicious, he wouldn't drink alcohol? 

My friend's husband doesn't "need" videos of them having sex.  No one needs videos of people having sex.

Is your friend still married to her husband? Is this a different friend? We don't need anything except food, water and shelter but a little lovin' goes a long way.

Edited January 2, 2017 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Rod, ignoring what came before in their marriage, there came a point where her husband tried to rape her and demonstrated he would continue to do so if able (thus the locked door and when that didn't work, the divorce).  Do you think it is wrong of her to remove him from the house in order to protect herself and instead she should allow him to stay there and attack her?

Without the divorce, she has less legal ability to require him to stay away from her, putting her at risk for extreme physical harm (rape is one of the worse things that can happen to a person).  As MS stated, he has demonstrated no inclination to control himself.  He was not taking "don't rape me" seriously.

I'm actually kind of insulted you even have to ask me these questions. I've been around here long enough for you to know me. If the situation is exactly as you have described it of course I agree with your statements. i just think it may be a totally different story from the other side. Exaggeration, perceived threats and selfish motives play a huge part in divorce cases. I knew better than to post in this thread but I did it anyway. I see far too many divorces where maximum effort has not been extended in the relationship from both sides.

[rodheadlee]

Calm, Are you going to address the culture that brought about this porn epidemic?

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm actually kind of insulted you even have to ask me these questions. I've been around here long enough for you to know me. If the situation is exactly as you have described it of course I agree with your statements. i just think it may be a totally different story from the other side.

Rod, I have been saying all along I was certain I was misunderstanding you because I knew the kind of man you are.

But just because I know that doesn't mean it translates all the time to me understanding what you are saying.

I glad that we agree if the case is as stated.  I also agree there are different stories from different sides even if people are seeing the same stuff.

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Calm

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am thinking you didn't read my posts then.  Or you are expecting a level of details that would be censored.

The essential detail imo is the timing, which was the porn came first and then the rejection, not the rejection as described by MS... then the porn as Rod had apparently assumed given his first post..  I stated this in my first post.  I was not asked by Rod "how do you know this" so I assumed he accepted it as fact.  I also kept pointing it out in other posts.

As far as I can tell now, Rod appears to see the timing as irrelevant.  I hope he takes the time to clarify.

 

I believe there is misunderstanding with trying to discuss the couple. It seems that the pornography viewing lead to attempts to force the other.

And I agree with about the censorship. I am not interested in details. The initial posting about the couple did not convey sexual activities against the will of the spouse. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Calm, Are you going to address the culture that brought about this porn epidemic?

I don't really feel the need to, I think others have expressed it better than I can.  If you want to know my opinion, just read bluedream's stuff.   (from what she has said the information I got in clinical psych classes is still valid today and it is consistent with my personal observations, plus she has given much of her personal experience as a sex/family therapist so I have been able to see how she applies what she has been taught and I find myself pretty consistent with what she says...and she says it so well).

[MorningStar]

34 minutes ago, provoman said:

I believe there is misunderstanding with trying to discuss the couple. It seems that the pornography viewing lead to attempts to force the other.

And I agree with about the censorship. I am not interested in details. The initial posting about the couple did not convey sexual activities against the will of the spouse. 

From my first post about that couple I said she recorded them having sex without her knowledge, that he wasn't respecting her wishes, and that she got a separate room with a lock on it.  Didn't realize it would have to be spelled out.  Did he violently rape her?  No.  Did he fondle her our mount her while she was sleeping after she told him no while she was awake?  Yes.  That is rape.  He doesn't get that.  He thinks he's just trying to seduce his wife and is entitled to do so.  It's because he can't understand her point of view on this that they are getting divorced after months of separation.  He filed when he realized she's not coming back or backing down from her position.  Funny thing about him too is he is very open about his addiction in testimony meeting, with other people, etc.  He flat out told me when I talked to him about my son's avoidance of situations that he goes to AARP for his addiction.  Doesn't seem the least bit ashamed - like "I'm just another guy addicted to porn." 

[MorningStar]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Is your friend still married to her husband? Is this a different friend? We don't need anything except food, water and shelter but a little lovin' goes a long way.

Different friend with the alcoholic husband and amazingly they are still married even though he beat her and tried to leave her and the kids homeless.  He lied and said he paid the rent for months, hid the eviction notice, and was going to head out of state. A sheriff showed up to boot her and their child out and her parents paid everything that was owed.  Horrifying.  Then he ended up in the ICU and friends finally believed what she was saying - that he was an alcoholic, abusive, and out of control.  He went to 28 day rehab twice after he almost died and he's very lucky to still be married.

[rodheadlee]

1 hour ago, MorningStar said:

Different friend with the alcoholic husband and amazingly they are still married even though he beat her and tried to leave her and the kids homeless.  He lied and said he paid the rent for months, hid the eviction notice, and was going to head out of state. A sheriff showed up to boot her and their child out and her parents paid everything that was owed.  Horrifying.  Then he ended up in the ICU and friends finally believed what she was saying - that he was an alcoholic, abusive, and out of control.  He went to 28 day rehab twice after he almost died and he's very lucky to still be married.

That is great to hear. Nowhere in the gospel does it say to cast the sick from among you. I'm married to an alcoholic too. It has been rough but I love her and she has been sober for over 5 years. She never got as bad as your friend's husband, she was more of a functioning alcoholic but I took my share of verbal abuse. She is the most caring, hardworking and honest individual I have ever met but she just loved to drink wine, lots of wine. She broke and threw out my breathalyzer because she didn't like what it read at 7 am.  My wife is lucky to be alive too, but hey, we all are. I have had my own addictions to work through and she has stuck it out for me. I have a lot of respect for your friend for sticking it out and I hope it works out for them. The whole key of course is to lay your burdens onto Jesus Christ, He will carry them for you. I believe those of us who are tried in the fire of addiction come out more compassionate than before we went in.

 

 

 

by the way I had my wife's permission to share a bit her story.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Rod, I have been saying all along I was certain I was misunderstanding you because I knew the kind of man you are.

But just because I know that doesn't mean it translates all the time to me understanding what you are saying.

I glad that we agree if the case is as stated.  I also agree there are different stories from different sides even if people are seeing the same stuff.

 

Yeah I don't communicate well I should probably stick to fixing and driving boats.

[BlueDreams]

On 12/29/2016 at 3:09 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

I haven't been paying attention to this thread (or any). I have a tendency to cut off from the internet a ton when taking vacations/breaks. So I also haven't read much of this thread and assume some of what I'm about to say is going to be repeated.

I would tell her to first educate herself and talk to people with varying perspectives. I don't think the question is a bad one and is far better than never asking. I'm pretty sure I've also mentioned that I'm not a fan of the word porn addict (though I use it). I associate it more with things like bulimia or binge eating disorder. Because it's an unhealthy manifestation to a healthy needed human function. And just like food probs, you may not have a diagnosable "addiction" and still have problems, expectations, or attitudes based from porn that don't work in relational sex.  I would also want her to know that porn usually has little to do with how they view her. And if it does, it's their own shiz. You don't fix that. 

Personally, with the people I've seen most of their marriages with people who are porn addicts will probably make it, if they're seeking help. The ones who don't are either not invested in change, or I'm seeing post divorce with the other spouse (so it's their story)...usually a similar problem though. In fact a number in intact marriages I've seen have great marriages. The porn's still a problem, but their marriages aren't really in some extreme form of marital free fall. Porn in and of itself isn't a marriage killer. Secrecy, lies, blame-shifting, denying the problem, not working on it, extreme reactions (from either spouse), partner exploitation, and several behavioral concerns that stem from long exposure from porn are the big killers. Porn was just the wheels to the vehicle that drove their marriage off a cliff. Replacing the wheels ain't enough, you've got to get the car pointed in the right direction. 

The ones who do learn to emotionally stand on their own two feet, share emotionally with their partner rather than rely or cut off, work on mutually shared sexuality, treat each other decently and work on it when they don't. In other words they work together and individually to formate a healthy loving relationship. And they work individually while supporting the other in finding healthy individual identity. Like everyone else, just with their own individualized marital problem that may take more work than other "smaller" or less obvious problems. 

I would ask more questions about the porn, not just one. And do so not to cast judgment on how righteous they are and worthy to be a partner. (And make sure that's really emphasized). But more to see if they'll talk about it. If they do, even if it's with shame and discomfort, they're workable. If they won't, blame-shift (or. Make you feel bad for asking), become defensive, or hold values that you don't really care for about porn, then I would recommend seriously reconsidering a further relationship. 

 

oh, also, the basic answers of read, ponder, and pray never hurt 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited January 2, 2017 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I haven't been paying attention to this thread (or any). I have a tendency to cut off from the internet a ton when taking vacations/breaks. So I also haven't read much of this thread and assume some of what I'm about to say is going to be repeated.

I would tell her to first educate herself and talk to people with varying perspectives. I don't think the question is a bad one and is far better than never asking. I'm pretty sure I've also mentioned that I'm not a fan of the word porn addict (though I use it). I associate it more with things like bulimia or binge eating disorder. Because it's an unhealthy manifestation to a healthy needed human function. And just like food probs, you may not have a diagnosable "addiction" and still have problems, expectations, or attitudes based from porn that don't work in relational sex.  I would also want her to know that porn usually has little to do with how they view her. And if it does, it's their own shiz. You don't fix that. 

Personally, with the people I've seen i know that most marriages with people who are porn addicts will probably make it, if they're seeking help. In fact a number I've seen have great marriages. The porn's still a problem, but their marriages aren't really in some extreme form of marital free fall. Porn in and of itself isn't a marriage killer. Secrecy, lies, blame-shifting, denying the problem, not working on it, extreme reactions (from either spouse), partner exploitation, and several behavioral concerns that stem from long exposure from porn are the big killers. Porn was just the wheels to the vehicle that drove their marriage off a cliff. Replacing the wheels ain't enough, you've got to get the car pointed in the right direction. 

The ones who do learn to emotionally stand on their own two feet, share emotionally with their partner rather than rely or cut off, work on mutually shared sexuality, treat each other decently and work on it when they don't. In other words they work together and individually to formate a healthy loving relationship. And they work individually while supporting the other in finding healthy individual identity. Like everyone else, just with their own individualized marital problem that may take more work than other "smaller" or less obvious problems. 

I would ask more questions about the porn, not just one. And do so not to cast judgment on how righteous they are and worthy to be a partner. (And make sure that's really emphasized). But more to see if they'll talk about it. If they do, even if it's with shame and discomfort, they're workable. If they won't, blame-shift (or. Make you feel bad for asking), become defensive, or hold values that you don't really care for about porn, then I would recommend seriously reconsidering a further relationship. 

 

oh, also, the basic answers of read, ponder, and pray never hurt 

 

with luv, 

BD 

Thanks for the great comments and suggestions. I agree with most of what you say. Of about a dozen couples or so I have met who are struggling with this at the level,of a possible divorce (certainly not as many as you) only one has had a happy ending even with professional help. Granted, I know them either as personal acquaintances or through a family support group, not in a professional setting.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[BlueDreams]

19 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm saying it's a poor excuse to dump him. I'm saying you are getting only one side of the story, I'm saying when I made my vows to stand beside my mate for better of for worse, in sickness and in health I meant it. How often will the safety card be played on the table of marriage to justify breaking your vows? If your mate has a contagious disease do you dump him or her for the safety of the family or do you spit in the eye of fate and do your best to nurse them back to health regardless of consequences to yourself. No analogy is perfect but where is the line? Is pornography addiction a disease or not?

Rod, as I mentioned, I haven't been following the thread and am somewhat reading backwards into the thread. No offense, but several of these posts are pretty wince-worthy.  Starting with this part which isn't particularly bad, just not super compassionat. I've dealt with several porn/sex addict clients. It's tough work, they are in (well should be) my office for months if not a year or 2. Watching them change, to grasp on to healthy sexuality, to foster greater love and rebuild trust, to feel and see not only porn but generational baggage be stripped is rewarding. Because many of my clients are LDS. I've also got to see the spiritual work as well more closely and  have learned with them at times about God. Redemption is beautiful. At the same time, I've had a couple of people both pre-marriage and in marriage, not hold up to the flames per se. And a couple that I hoped would divorce. And several prompted to divorce by God. at times they would ignore the prompting because of cultural attitudes about making anything work or the stigma of divorce. Sometimes I think they could probably make it. Or if I were in their position, I could do it. But I'm not them. The reasons I could make it come from an emotionally rough childhood as much as from my education and knowledge in these concerns. There's other marriages that are making it work or stayed married that I know for a fact I could never do. This stems from my knowledge of escalation in abusive behaviors as well as my strong dislike of codependency. In all of them, I'm learning not to judge. Just because it could be saved doesn't mean that every time it should. You had a situation that on paper shouldn't have worked or often has some bad outcomes. You and your wife beat the odds. That's great. But it can't be a standard bearer for all or even most.

In my personal life, I am making decisions for my life based on revelation and careful thought that I know are right but doesn't make sense. I don't want to go into detail. I've learned and grown and can hear the Lord more clearly than at any other point in my life. But at no point have I forgotten that the Lord has also stated that I would not walk the most obvious path. I try not to forget just because I'm doing something that it means it's a great idea for another. In fact, for most I'd tell them it's a stupid one  . Sometimes, depending the circumstances, both staying and leaving may be the right answer. 

 

 

Quote

This whole safe place thing is a canard, there is no safe place in this world. Life causes death. The only safe place is in the arms of the Savior which is why there are so many singles well into their 30s. If you don't meet certain criteria you are not an acceptable LDS mate. It's no wonder we have porn epidemic in the Utah Church we have a bunch of people that spend the first half of their sexually available lives beating their hormones down with a baseball bat in order to go to University and go on a mission and become acceptable to LDS female mates.. Then when they can't find the perfect mate or have been turned down multiple times they retreat into their basement, or worse yet Mom's basement and play video games and watch porn. The women will accept no lesser mate than Christ, they will serve no male, except Christ. It's a caricature, so don't CFR me .  It's a direct consequence of the Church culture in Utah and perhaps the USA. The dating and mating years are supposed to begin at the end of puberty, not in your early 30's.

Rod, this is a very inaccurate charicature. I mean really poor. A charicature should be based at least loosely on reality. And I can't think of anyone this accurately describes. Here's what I see more often. Our society has left a terrible loophole both secular and religious alike. A 10-12 year old boy finds porn. It's often not just a naked picture nowadays. They're curious and often know this is something to hide. Sometimes they're shock and horrified but also curious still. Their families are sorts that are not able to emotionally share and are often rigid. They can be shaming about sex, but more often they just don't talk about it. They grow up and at the time most of us are having  I learn to manage complicated emotions and practice relational skill, porn become a pacifier that allows them to not manage emotions. This hits especially hard if there's feelings of depression, anxiety, and inadequacy. Or if theirs severe relational turmoil (divorce, abusive homes, deaths, etc). If this goes unchecked, their emotionally pacifier become and emotional crutch. They're often cognizant now to hear messages that porn is bad. Some really ream themselves with this and fall into shame as well. They emotionally numb out and in bad cases can remain around 13 in emotional regulation and managing relationships. Don't know about you, but I sucked at that at 13. Then they try to date. Some are terribly shy. Others date but have a hard time connecting. Others have varying forms of emotional neediness. Their partner may have their own set of issues going in, but either way there's problems. That's more common. 

In cases like MS' where basic safety is involved the problems have often fermented far longer than their marriage. There were probably red flags prior that weren't understood. The results can be catastrophic and dangerous. There may not be a perfectly "safe space" but there are safer ones and some situations I've seen can literally leach a person's soul till there's nothing really left of the partner and these marriages can leave lasting problems for their children as well. A marriage that ends is sad, yes. But sometimes it is needed.

 

with luv,

BD

Edited January 2, 2017 by BlueDreams

[BCSpace]

On 1/1/2017 at 10:47 AM, provoman said:

 

I only got to about 20minute mark.

Her approach seems to be sexuality is natural, you are not a monster if you view pornography, and what you may think is an addiction is a glimpse of other issues that when addressed would affect pornograpgy use.

Yep.  I tend to agree with this view and approach.  Of course the question always is, is it the correct view and approach?  Am looking for something in this approach that is in opposition to Church doctrine or policy but I don't see anything. I forget where it is in the podcast and you may have stopped listening before reaching it, but she also does talk about the issue of a non-Church guided resolution of the issue where that is THE approach one partner wants to take or is used to, and the other partner sees no issue with being more independent from the Church on resolving this matter.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

 

 

Rod, this is a very inaccurate charicature. I mean really poor. A charicature should be based at least loosely on reality. And I can't think of anyone this accurately describes.

 

with luv,

BD

I got this idea from reading threads here on this board over the past year or two. not from my ward. Perhaps you could search the threads on singles, marriage stats etc. I don't care to do it. I'm in the 2 minute warning of my life I think I'll use my time better. Good luck to all of you.

[mnn727]

On 12/31/2016 at 1:33 PM, Bernard Gui said:

True, but this discussion has been about the effects of this particular addiction on marriage.

My point was that there are no assurances about any marriage lasting for any reason, so the question was kind of bogus.

[why me]

On 29.12.2016 at 8:23 PM, mapman said:

I don't have any personal experience with marriage and I don't know how useful advice from strangers is going to be, but I do have some thoughts on the matter. From my point of view it sounds like the biggest mistake here was the lying/hiding by the husband. It seems to me that his porn use should have been brought up when they were seriously considering marriage. My other thought is that looking at porn is normal behavior that most men and women indulge in at least occasionally and probably in a lot of cases not really an addiction. I'm all for teaching people that it isn't a good thing and spiritually harmful, but it is also harmful to people to become so ashamed of it and make them feel so horrible about themselves that they hide it and act out in a compulsive shame-cycle. There have got to be better ways for society to deal with it than what we are doing now. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that a spouse looking at porn necessarily means that they don't love and aren't committed to their partner, but that they need help to deal with the behavior they learned when they were growing up. Getting professional help from a therapist could potentially really help him out. Nevertheless, lying and hiding things from your spouse I'm sure would make it hard to trust him, and I'm not really in the position to judge anyone's actions.

Some good thoughts here. However, porn is also destructive for the actors involved. And it is here that we have the problem. Let me put it this way: after the filming people involved in the sex scenes are sort of regrouping their own sanity. Not that they are crazy doing it but it does have an affect on the life spirit. Many former porn actors have spoken about their experiences making such films when they retire from the business. Most people watching porn do not have a clue what it does to the porn actors.

The link is rather graphic. The site tries to help former porn stars regain their lives back.

https://www.shelleylubben.com/ex-porn-star-corina-taylor-story

However, it is not just the church that diescourages porn viewing:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125382361

 

Edited January 3, 2017 by why me