Kenya and Germany on Polygamy

[nuclearfuels]

Kenya legalized polygamy in 2014.  Any readers here serve mission there and have to tell investigators they'd need to stop the practice before being able to be baptized? I understand in Latin America a lot of married people split up but forgo the legal part of making the divorce official and that has to be done before they can be baptized.

Germany is trying to indirectly legalize polygamy for one of their migrant culture's beliefs. 

My wife and I support our ancestors who practiced polygamy, to say nothing of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob practicing polygamy.

Curious as to your thoughts:

1. Will other African countries and European countries following suit?
2. Will / Should people in Congress - Ilhan, Tlaib, Romney, Bishop, etc. allow migrants here to practice what their faith encourages? 

Declining populations (Japan, Europe) really have two options: welcome in higher fertility populations from other countries or legalize polygamy. 

 

Pushed by politicians, polygamy enjoys a heyday among Christians in ...

Germany: Citizenship for Polygamous Migrants?

 

[HappyJackWagon]

9 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Kenya legalized polygamy in 2014.  Any readers here serve mission there and have to tell investigators they'd need to stop the practice before being able to be baptized? I understand in Latin America a lot of married people split up but forgo the legal part of making the divorce official and that has to be done before they can be baptized.

Germany is trying to indirectly legalize polygamy for one of their migrant culture's beliefs. 

My wife and I support our ancestors who practiced polygamy, to say nothing of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob practicing polygamy.

Curious as to your thoughts:

1. Will other African countries and European countries following suit?
2. Will / Should people in Congress - Ilhan, Tlaib, Romney, Bishop, etc. allow migrants here to practice what their faith encourages? 

Declining populations (Japan, Europe) really have two options: welcome in higher fertility populations from other countries or legalize polygamy. 

 

Pushed by politicians, polygamy enjoys a heyday among Christians in ...

Germany: Citizenship for Polygamous Migrants?

 

Ironically, in the early days of the church I don't think the legality of divorces was much of an issue. If the marriage was abandoned by one partner, I think they were considered divorced and one could marry another person. Of course communication and travel have improved a bit since then.

I think it's an interesting question about allowing polygamy in countries where it's legal. The legal issue clearly drove the church towards its current policy so it doesn't really seem to be a moral issue, but rather a policy/legalistic one for the church.

[pogi]

39 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Kenya legalized polygamy in 2014.  Any readers here serve mission there and have to tell investigators they'd need to stop the practice before being able to be baptized?

I doubt that missionaries encounter this much.  I would guess that the vast majority of those who practice polygamy in these countries are Muslim.  Missionaries are not allowed to proselytize Muslims.  

[nuclearfuels]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

I doubt that missionaries encounter this much.  I would guess that the vast majority of those who practice polygamy in these countries are Muslim.  Missionaries are not allowed to proselytize Muslims.  

"Oketch is among hundreds of thousands of Christian men in this East African nation with multiple wives despite Catholic and other church teachings. About 1.5 million Kenyans, or 10 percent of the married population, are in a polygamous marriage, according to the latest data from the Kenya Population and Housing Census.

More than 85 percent of Kenyans are Christian, while a third of the country is Catholic. Around 10 percent are Muslim."

- The Trib writer's sophistry isn't working (Christians in Kenya are practicing polygamy; aren't they bad people with wrong think?).  The article is suggesting it's mostly Christians practicing polygamy.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Kenya legalized polygamy in 2014.  Any readers here serve mission there and have to tell investigators they'd need to stop the practice before being able to be baptized? I understand in Latin America a lot of married people split up but forgo the legal part of making the divorce official and that has to be done before they can be baptized.

Germany is trying to indirectly legalize polygamy for one of their migrant culture's beliefs. .................

In countries where polygamy is legal, the RLDS Church long ago allowed converts to continue their polygamous marriages.  Why break up a family?

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

1. Will other African countries and European countries following suit?
2. Will / Should people in Congress - Ilhan, Tlaib, Romney, Bishop, etc. allow migrants here to practice what their faith encourages? ........................

It isn't so much a matter of legislation, since the U.S. Supreme Court will likely legalize plural marriage.  The question is whether the LDS Church will make it legal, and that is very doubtful.

[changed]

I work with someone who comes from a polygamous family - he is the first son of the first wife, out of 20 wives.  It sounded like more of a business deal, wives running farms etc.  He's kind of Christian?  not really religious.

[Maestrophil]

Just like with gay marriage - I say that government should stay out of the marriage business.  

That said, if love is love, and any two consenting adults can be married as long as they are not harming anyone else - then why not several consenting adults?

[Glenn101]

58 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Just like with gay marriage - I say that government should stay out of the marriage business.  

That said, if love is love, and any two consenting adults can be married as long as they are not harming anyone else - then why not several consenting adults?

I think that the different permutations that could come from this i.e. marriage between several consenting adults, such as ideas promoted and practised by  John Humphrey Noyes is one of the reasons God will not allow the practice of polygamy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints until at least the Millennium.

Glenn

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/24/2019 at 7:48 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

In countries where polygamy is legal, the RLDS Church long ago allowed converts to continue their polygamous marriages.  Why break up a family?

It isn't so much a matter of legislation, since the U.S. Supreme Court will likely legalize plural marriage.  The question is whether the LDS Church will make it legal, and that is very doubtful.

Curious as to why you think it's doubtful, if "society" meaning SCOTUS here, legalizes it

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/24/2019 at 10:37 PM, changed said:

I work with someone who comes from a polygamous family - he is the first son of the first wife, out of 20 wives.  It sounded like more of a business deal, wives running farms etc.  He's kind of Christian?  not really religious.

Canada or Hill Dale area?

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/25/2019 at 1:23 PM, Glenn101 said:

I think that the different permutations that could come from this i.e. marriage between several consenting adults, such as ideas promoted and practised by  John Humphrey Noyes is one of the reasons God will not allow the practice of polygamy in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints until at least the Millennium.

Glenn

Interesting point of view.

Wouldn't the spouses (and ministering brethren and sisters and the ward family) still report anything that was wrong, such as a leaning toward Noyes' "complex marriages?"

[Anijen]

On 6/24/2019 at 11:21 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

Ironically, in the early days of the church I don't think the legality of divorces was much of an issue. If the marriage was abandoned by one partner, I think they were considered divorced and one could marry another person. Of course communication and travel have improved a bit since then.

I think it's an interesting question about allowing polygamy in countries where it's legal. The legal issue clearly drove the church towards its current policy so it doesn't really seem to be a moral issue, but rather a policy/legalistic one for the church.

Divorce is a misunderstood thing. In the past it was available to all by a writ, but those were a bit pricey so poorer couples would just leave each other (like you mentioned).  However, divorce has always been a requirement here in the U.S.. That is one reason in the past that some alleged marriages were tainted with the rumor of scandal because the thought that a previous marriage a divorce was not achieved prior to their current marriage..

Today, if a couple is in a common law marriage they still would have to get a divorce. There is no such thing as a common law divorce.  see here for a Brief History of Divorce

[The Nehor]

On 6/25/2019 at 11:14 AM, Maestrophil said:

Just like with gay marriage - I say that government should stay out of the marriage business.  

That said, if love is love, and any two consenting adults can be married as long as they are not harming anyone else - then why not several consenting adults?

These multi-way relationships almost always blow up dramatically and often there are children involved. I am also not so much of a libertarian that I believe people should be allowed to harm themselves as much as they choose to.

On 6/24/2019 at 6:48 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

In countries where polygamy is legal, the RLDS Church long ago allowed converts to continue their polygamous marriages.  Why break up a family?

Ironic when they for years denied it was ever allowed under Joseph Smith.

On 6/24/2019 at 9:37 PM, changed said:

I work with someone who comes from a polygamous family - he is the first son of the first wife, out of 20 wives.  It sounded like more of a business deal, wives running farms etc.  He's kind of Christian?  not really religious.

I have met a few as well, mostly Muslims. When I was a missionary we got free food at a Pakistani owned takeaway place if we came in with a good polygamy story or joke. The guy was a son of a man with four wives. He appreciated we were the only Christians he met who did not find the concept barbaric and abhorrent and had married a member of the local ward. We tried to come up with stories or jokes between doors while knocking them. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by The Nehor

[Glenn101]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Interesting point of view.

Wouldn't the spouses (and ministering brethren and sisters and the ward family) still report anything that was wrong, such as a leaning toward Noyes' "complex marriages?"

Do you mean if polygamy were to be authorized again? Yeah, probably, but people are also prone to push the boundaries that have been set. The Noyes complex marriage idea did not spread outside his own group because it was too radical in its day. But the times have changed and things that once were unthinkable are being thought about and practiced. I think the church will stay far away from that.

Glenn

[nuclearfuels]

32 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Do you mean if polygamy were to be authorized again? Yeah, probably, but people are also prone to push the boundaries that have been set. The Noyes complex marriage idea did not spread outside his own group because it was too radical in its day. But the times have changed and things that once were unthinkable are being thought about and practiced. I think the church will stay far away from that.

Glenn

I think sisters, biological and of the ward family variety, share nursing duties with their babies - assuming the babies (and mothers) are of a similar age. That's not specific to LDS or RLDS or polygamy though.

Just seems to me like if there are problems with a monogamous marriage, the same warning signals coudl be sent to shepherds, bishops, etc. that would be sent in polygamous situations.

[Glenn101]

47 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I think sisters, biological and of the ward family variety, share nursing duties with their babies - assuming the babies (and mothers) are of a similar age. That's not specific to LDS or RLDS or polygamy though.

Just seems to me like if there are problems with a monogamous marriage, the same warning signals coudl be sent to shepherds, bishops, etc. that would be sent in polygamous situations.

I do not understand your point. Could you elaborate a bit? I do not see a nexus between your comments and the church staying away from polygamy even if it were to become legal because of the rapidly changing perspectives on personal relationships.

Glenn

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to why you think it's doubtful, if "society" meaning SCOTUS here, legalizes it

The whole experience was more than enough for the LDS Church, and I think that most members find the notion distasteful at best.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 6/24/2019 at 10:03 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Declining populations (Japan, Europe) really have two options: welcome in higher fertility populations from other countries or legalize polygamy. 

How exactly would polygamy help declining populations in Japan and Europe exactly? 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

How exactly would polygamy help declining populations in Japan and Europe exactly? 

From what I see in Asia media, single mothers are still stigmatized, but I am guessing giving the history there, second or more wives would be viewed as second class, so many women wouldn't see polygamous marriage as that useful.

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

From what I see in Asia media, single mothers are still stigmatized, but I am guessing giving the history there, second or more wives would be viewed as second class, so many women wouldn't see polygamous marriage as that useful.

True. 

Japan is hoping single women using baby robots will rekindle thier mothering instincts and prompt them to marry instead of remain single, living the dream/nightmare of working instead of raising kids as a homemaker

[nuclearfuels]

14 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

How exactly would polygamy help declining populations in Japan and Europe exactly? 

Not sure what you're really asking here.

THe same process that leads to babies here, leads to babies there.

If more adults pursue that process in those places, the probability of more babies as a result is of a higher likelihood.

THanks Moderators for not (yet) banning me from this thread. I am trying.

[nuclearfuels]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The whole experience was more than enough for the LDS Church, and I think that most members find the notion distasteful at best.

I don't find Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses' marital practices distasteful.

 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I don't find Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses' marital practices distasteful.

 

You might not, but I think that many people in this day and age would find the notion of having dozens of wives and concubines who pretty much had to do whatever the husband decided and who were basically the same as property to be distasteful.  

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Japan is hoping single women using baby robots will rekindle thier mothering instincts and prompt them to marry instead of remain single, living the dream/nightmare of working instead of raising kids as a homemaker

I can understand the lack of desire to marry if the media portrayal of the domination of the wife by the husband is accurate.  They will likely need to shift the culture some if they really want to make a difference.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

I don't find Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses' marital practices distasteful.

I have no problem with the multiple wives of Abraham and Jacob.  However, Isaac was monogamous, and Moses probably so (Cush being Midian, and his Cushite wife being Zipporah).