Glenn101

No doubt about that.

I do not see Eve as the wiser of the two. They had been given a commandment to multiply and fill up the earth. Reproduction was essential in order to carry out that commandment. At that point in time, but they had no idea how to accomplish that task. Some have espoused the idea that in time, they would have been taught all of that. If I am reading the lesson that Lehi taught as well as Eve's statement in Moses 5:11, that never would have happened. When Eve ate that fruit, she did not know that it was necessary, nor did Adam. Glenn

If one accepts the Book of Mormon as scripture and Lehi as a prophet of God, the fall of Adam was not "fortunate" but rather necessary. Because of the fall, we have to deal with who, what, and what kind of person we really are. And because of that a Savior was needed. Glenn

I believe that is the situation, in the proverbial nutshell. I attend church via Zoom mostly, not by choice, but out of necessity owing to physical problems, especially those of my wife. That forced social distancing also distances us somewhat from the communal spirit which we can feel when in physical attendance. My own hearing is so bad now that I really can make out but little of what is being said, but I can listen with my heart to people I know to be good and true, especially when bearing their testimonies, and feel the presence of the Spirit. There are times when it is lacking, and I have realized that when such is the case, it is always because of the attitude, the spirit I bring with me whether in person or via a remote attendance. Glenn

I was engaged in a discussion about this very thing with Dan and a couple of other people a few years ago, on another board. He is not a proponent of the Spaulding theory. We agreed on that point at least.

Their stories describe a manuscript that is so unlike the one now located at Oberlin College that Doctor Hurlbut went back to interview those witnesses again to determine if maybe Spaulding had written another manuscript. Some of the witnesses averred that yes, Solomon Spaulding had indeed gone back and rewritten his story so that it could sound more biblical. However, there is a problem with that narrative as one of the pages is written on the back of a letter that was dated to a time after Spaulding had left Ohio, indicating that he was still working on that same story. But, there are people who are firmly convinced that there has to be another manuscript which has yet to be found.

Have you tried it?

Because he would not have been able to read anything in the bottom of his white top hat with his face buried in it. Have you tried such an experiment? I have. Without some type of light inside the hat any characters on a note card would be illegible, if they could be seen at all. Maybe Joseph had xray vision??? 🤓 As to the blanket thing, I will quote Neal Maxwell from the Fair article on Martin Harris and his contributions to the translation process: "With regard to the physical circumstances of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his scribe, Martin Harris was quoted as saying there was a blanket or curtain hung between himself and Joseph during the translation process. If Martin is accurately quoted, perhaps this occurred when the Prophet was copying characters directly from the plates in the sample to be taken to Professor Charles Anthon, since the dates mentioned are several months before Martin Harris's brief scribal duties began. I say this because although David Whitmer mentions a blanket being used, it was only to partition off the living area in order to keep both the translator and scribe from the eyes of visitors. In fact, Elizabeth Anne Whitmer Cowdery, Oliver's wife, said, "Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe." [4] Emma likewise said of her days as scribe, early on, that Joseph dictated "hour after hour with nothing between us." I do not see note cards or pages from a manuscript in Joseph's lap as being very plausible. A didactic memory and Joseph memorizing at night the text to be dictated the next day is the most plausible naturalistic explanation for the translation process, in my opinion. However there has yet to be found any evidence for that possibility. Glenni

I think maybe you are channeling your inner Nehor again. 😎 The humanitarian portion im me, although, admittedly it rarely wakes up, would like as many of the immigrants that hit our southern border as possible to be given santuary in theses (wishfully) United States. Screening for gang members, pedophiles, sex offenders, and other similar types of the criminal element as well as COVID-19 infections is a necessity as well as controlling the influx to a manageable level. Although illegal immigration has been politicized heavily, I see it mostly in a humanitarian light.

It is not a worthless babble. It does provide plausible answers for a lot of questions raised by critics. But, if either side had conclusive arguments, we would not even be having this conversation. The affair would be settled, one way or the other. I have found that most skeptics are of the Dale Morgan variety. And that is why we will never have any type of "conclusive arguments" from either side, but skeptics will continue to launch broadsides and apologetics will continue to seek plausible answers.

Apologetics is not intended to convince skeptics. Just to provide plausible answers, when possible, to problems that are advanced against the Restoration. And you are correct that faith and a spiritual affirmation is the only real answer, at least in this life.

Alma 34:34 seems to agree with you.

What this comes down to is that one or the other groups (i.e. those that claim to have received a revelation that the Book of Mormon is "true" or those that claim to have received a revelation that the Book of Mormon is "false") has been deceived. That question will only be settled definitively in the phase of life.

I expect that most if not all of those who will inhabit the Telestial Kingdom will already be feeling a lot of genuine remorse and contrition ere they begin their period of punishment but will have to pay the full price that justice demands because they were not repentant here on earth.

I think this is where outer darkness comes into play.

No, he or she cannot make an atoning sacrifice. Whatever punishment is meted out to the unrepentant will not be an atonement or a sacrifice. It will be whatever penalty justice requires for sins not repented of. That is what is laid out in D&C 19.

I have not heard any general authority describe the punishment meted out to the unrepentant thusly. My understanding is that they have to suffer for their own sins, until they have paid the "uttermost farthing." (3 Nephi 12:16) Do you have any scriptural or General Authority references to support your thesis? Thanks, Glenn