Glenn101

I was engaged in a discussion about this very thing with Dan and a couple of other people a few years ago, on another board. He is not a proponent of the Spaulding theory. We agreed on that point at least.

Their stories describe a manuscript that is so unlike the one now located at Oberlin College that Doctor Hurlbut went back to interview those witnesses again to determine if maybe Spaulding had written another manuscript. Some of the witnesses averred that yes, Solomon Spaulding had indeed gone back and rewritten his story so that it could sound more biblical. However, there is a problem with that narrative as one of the pages is written on the back of a letter that was dated to a time after Spaulding had left Ohio, indicating that he was still working on that same story. But, there are people who are firmly convinced that there has to be another manuscript which has yet to be found.

Have you tried it?

Because he would not have been able to read anything in the bottom of his white top hat with his face buried in it. Have you tried such an experiment? I have. Without some type of light inside the hat any characters on a note card would be illegible, if they could be seen at all. Maybe Joseph had xray vision??? 🤓 As to the blanket thing, I will quote Neal Maxwell from the Fair article on Martin Harris and his contributions to the translation process: "With regard to the physical circumstances of the Prophet Joseph Smith and his scribe, Martin Harris was quoted as saying there was a blanket or curtain hung between himself and Joseph during the translation process. If Martin is accurately quoted, perhaps this occurred when the Prophet was copying characters directly from the plates in the sample to be taken to Professor Charles Anthon, since the dates mentioned are several months before Martin Harris's brief scribal duties began. I say this because although David Whitmer mentions a blanket being used, it was only to partition off the living area in order to keep both the translator and scribe from the eyes of visitors. In fact, Elizabeth Anne Whitmer Cowdery, Oliver's wife, said, "Joseph never had a curtain drawn between him and his scribe." [4] Emma likewise said of her days as scribe, early on, that Joseph dictated "hour after hour with nothing between us." I do not see note cards or pages from a manuscript in Joseph's lap as being very plausible. A didactic memory and Joseph memorizing at night the text to be dictated the next day is the most plausible naturalistic explanation for the translation process, in my opinion. However there has yet to be found any evidence for that possibility. Glenni

I think maybe you are channeling your inner Nehor again. 😎 The humanitarian portion im me, although, admittedly it rarely wakes up, would like as many of the immigrants that hit our southern border as possible to be given santuary in theses (wishfully) United States. Screening for gang members, pedophiles, sex offenders, and other similar types of the criminal element as well as COVID-19 infections is a necessity as well as controlling the influx to a manageable level. Although illegal immigration has been politicized heavily, I see it mostly in a humanitarian light.

It is not a worthless babble. It does provide plausible answers for a lot of questions raised by critics. But, if either side had conclusive arguments, we would not even be having this conversation. The affair would be settled, one way or the other. I have found that most skeptics are of the Dale Morgan variety. And that is why we will never have any type of "conclusive arguments" from either side, but skeptics will continue to launch broadsides and apologetics will continue to seek plausible answers.

Apologetics is not intended to convince skeptics. Just to provide plausible answers, when possible, to problems that are advanced against the Restoration. And you are correct that faith and a spiritual affirmation is the only real answer, at least in this life.

Alma 34:34 seems to agree with you.

What this comes down to is that one or the other groups (i.e. those that claim to have received a revelation that the Book of Mormon is "true" or those that claim to have received a revelation that the Book of Mormon is "false") has been deceived. That question will only be settled definitively in the phase of life.

I expect that most if not all of those who will inhabit the Telestial Kingdom will already be feeling a lot of genuine remorse and contrition ere they begin their period of punishment but will have to pay the full price that justice demands because they were not repentant here on earth.

I think this is where outer darkness comes into play.

No, he or she cannot make an atoning sacrifice. Whatever punishment is meted out to the unrepentant will not be an atonement or a sacrifice. It will be whatever penalty justice requires for sins not repented of. That is what is laid out in D&C 19.

I have not heard any general authority describe the punishment meted out to the unrepentant thusly. My understanding is that they have to suffer for their own sins, until they have paid the "uttermost farthing." (3 Nephi 12:16) Do you have any scriptural or General Authority references to support your thesis? Thanks, Glenn

Maybe the "argument" should be changed to suggestion since there is no way of reading people's minds.

I was able to download the article and have perused the first couple of pages. It does not convey or hint at any widespread animus or prejudice against Catholics. I will read the entire essay when time permits. A quote from the article: And another: I expect to find conflicts of some sort elsewhere in the essay, human nature being what it is. Glenn

What were you trying to accomplish???

I was not expecting a complete refutation. I would have preferred taking one example of something he has said and showing how he is wrong. You did expound on why you think Peterson is wrong, though in generalities, which is okay, as you were expressing your opinions. Thanks.

I have not read any of his books but I have watched and listened to some of his lectures and have watched several of the debates in which he has engaged. He uses facts and data to support his viewpoints and those with whom he has engaged in debates seem not to be able to refute him. Would you mind articulating just how you believe Dr. Peterson is wrong? His book "Twelve Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos" has been very popular and has helped a lot of young men. Thanks, Glenn

I do believe it is a good idea to do some self assessment in many cases though. I know I often unconsciously or inadvertently have done things that have sent the wrong signal to people. But for most cases I am on board with your point of view. None of my friends over the years would have offered me a cigarette or an inappropriate picture because I made sure that they knew where I stood on such issues.

When you set up or accept this type of strawman argument, no one wins. If you say the only way to show love and compassion a particular person is to accept what that persons desires as okay, the door is shut. I have a (step)son, now deceased, who was gay. He had been a member of the church but was removed from the church membership rolls because of his lifestyle. I learned to love all of my second wife's children and he was no exception. We had a good discussion about the situation when he came out. He understood my position on the the matter and the matter never came up again. My wife and I accepted him as he was. He still was our son and we loved him. We placed no difference between him and any of our other children. The last time I saw him he kissed me on top of my head (the bald spot) and we hugged before he departed. He knew that I and my wife both loved him. It was not an either or situation for either of us. Glenn +

I assume you are really speaking for yourself. I have often thought that I might not really be human but have not had the courage to investigate the idea further. 🙃 And then, there is the Nehor.....

I was making no value or moral judgements on President Johnson or on the possibility of spiritual digression in the church and its leaders. My point was and is that God looks with compassion on His children and their circumstances. Just look at how the Word of Wisdom was implemented, "not by commandment," but "adapted to the capacity of the weak." I do think that the calling of President Johnson is part of some changes in thinking by the leaders of the church. Glenn

It is evident that God is pragmatic, compassionate, and loving. He adjusts his policies in accordance with times, conditions, and capabilities of His children as evidenced by the detailed instructions of the Law of Moses because the Children of Israel would not (could not???) maintain a higher law. In the current dispensation He instituted the law of tithing because the Saints would not (could not???) live the higher United Order. That is an example of God compassionately adjusting policies based upon the circumstances of some members. In my life time I have known members who limited family size with both parents working to be able to afford, not lap of luxury lifestyles, but to be able to afford a life above survival level and to be able to afford to send their kids to college. Some of those people have been bishops, branch presidents, Relief Society Presidents, etc. It is evident that changes in leadership thinking have been taking place, spurred by a 96 year old prophet. Glenn

Scrupulosity, or perfectionism is a mental/emotional trait. I have no idea how prevalent it is in societies in general but it logically would follow that in institutions where the standards are high, the effects would be more pronounced than in cases where rules, etc. are very relaxed and non-demanding.

My wife and I are getting old and decrepit, with my wife being scheduled for hip replacement surgery in May, but we would take a couple of those kids in our home and pray that we lived long enough that they could begin to take care of themselves. What is happening with children like that is inhumane and criminal. Those two could have died in that desert area. Glenn