Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[Bernard Gui]

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

You can't know for sure if you are marrying someone who is not going to destroy the marriage, by addiction or anything else for that matter. You can't know that any marriage won't fail. My temple marriage didn't fail because of porn, but it did fail. I fasted and prayed and received the definite answer that I was to be sealed to my now ex wife. It almost destroyed me because I knew so well that it was blessed from God that I should be sealed to her. I mistakenly thought that God's blessing meant that it could never fail if I remained worthy of it. I took it as a sign that somehow I blew it, even though I tried (very imperfectly I might add) to the best of my ability to be a good husband, father, and honoring priesthood holder. I basically gave up on life thinking, "if I could try my absolute best and still blow something that God gave to me in a matter of six years, what makes me think I can ever even make it to the Celestial Kingdom at all?" It wasn't until I also learned, through personal revelation, amidst suicidal thoughts, that my kids and I needed to experience that divorce in order to gain whatever it is that we gained from such an experience.... That there was no other way to learn what it was that we were/are to learn from it all. I have actually found peace in this answer, where I saw nothing but but self failure before because I thought that it wasn't in God's plan for us to experience such a divorce. It changed to now actually being able to honestly thank God for these experiences instead.

I think we need to learn to love no matter what, and be willing to submit to all that our Father in Heaven sees fit to inflict upon us. We need to commit to our companion, no matter what unseen flaws in their character might be, unless it becomes too dangerous to be that committed if that person turns out to be some kind of dangerous, psycho, nut job. We need to learn to forgive and still love them, even if we can never trust them again. Most importantly we need to fast and pray when making such a critical decision as finding an eternal companion.

Sorry that there isn't a nice clean and safe answer to such a problem, but life itself isn't any type of guarantee that we will have a prefect, fun and happily ever after type of life. It is a leap of faith. Remember that not all people who are exposed to porn get addicted to it either. I was exposed to it at a very young age (8 years old), and while I was very interested in it at first, once I finally gained a testimony of God, I didn't desire it within my life anymore.

As for when the last time I viewed porn, it wasn't very long ago. It was about a month or so ago, when a movie I was watching all of a sudden showed more than I expected to see. Needless to say I didn't finish watching that movie.

[Duncan]

I wonder who can be married then? if the lady says that "all young men" are exposed to it and women won't want that......we'll be left with unmarried women and porn addicted men

[bcuzbcuz]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

I'd ask for a definition of pornography. I wouldn't want to be admitting to doing something that I didn't do. 

Personally I get more upset with modern films portrayals of violence against women than any nakedness that may be shown. My wife agrees.

[Avatar4321]

you can't know. You can just have faith and do what is right.

and if you do marry someone with that addiction you love them and help them and forgive them as much as you can to save your marriage. Obviously some reach the point where they can't be saved. It takes two to make a marriage work. Just remember that the gospel doesn't just allow us to be married for eternity. It allows us to become people who we will want to be with for eternity

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

I think that is an excellent answer. The subject has to be openly discussed and the conversation discerned by the Spirit.

[Five Solas]

On the aspect of addiction, my wife thinks I have an addiction to this board.  But I do the math, ~ 840 posts since 2013 = half-dozen/week.  I've got it under control.  It doesn't impact my work.  It doesn't impact (much) the time I have with her and/or our kids.  I can stop whenever I need to (e.g., you've never seen me posting on Christmas Day).   So I'm good, right?  I don't have a problem.  I don't need help.

Some of you, though...

;0)

--Erik

[bluebell]

I think it's important to remember that you don't marry perfection, you marry potential (someone else said that first but i don't remember who it was) and there is no way to guarantee that your husband (or yourself) won't make decisions that will ruin everything in the future.  

But, you've still got to be smart about it.  Lots of communication, honesty, prayer, and fasting before choosing a marriage partner are essential.

Edited December 29, 2016 by bluebell

[Jeanne]

5 hours ago, waveslider said:

You can't know for sure if you are marrying someone who is not going to destroy the marriage, by addiction or anything else for that matter. You can't know that any marriage won't fail. My temple marriage didn't fail because of porn, but it did fail. I fasted and prayed and received the definite answer that I was to be sealed to my now ex wife. It almost destroyed me because I knew so well that it was blessed from God that I should be sealed to her. I mistakenly thought that God's blessing meant that it could never fail if I remained worthy of it. I took it as a sign that somehow I blew it, even though I tried (very imperfectly I might add) to the best of my ability to be a good husband, father, and honoring priesthood holder. I basically gave up on life thinking, "if I could try my absolute best and still blow something that God gave to me in a matter of six years, what makes me think I can ever even make it to the Celestial Kingdom at all?" It wasn't until I also learned, through personal revelation, amidst suicidal thoughts, that my kids and I needed to experience that divorce in order to gain whatever it is that we gained from such an experience.... That there was no other way to learn what it was that we were/are to learn from it all. I have actually found peace in this answer, where I saw nothing but but self failure before because I thought that it wasn't in God's plan for us to experience such a divorce. It changed to now actually being able to honestly thank God for these experiences instead.

I think we need to learn to love no matter what, and be willing to submit to all that our Father in Heaven sees fit to inflict upon us. We need to commit to our companion, no matter what unseen flaws in their character might be, unless it becomes too dangerous to be that committed if that person turns out to be some kind of dangerous, psycho, nut job. We need to learn to forgive and still love them, even if we can never trust them again. Most importantly we need to fast and pray when making such a critical decision as finding an eternal companion.

Sorry that there isn't a nice clean and safe answer to such a problem, but life itself isn't any type of guarantee that we will have a prefect, fun and happily ever after type of life. It is a leap of faith. Remember that not all people who are exposed to porn get addicted to it either. I was exposed to it at a very young age (8 years old), and while I was very interested in it at first, once I finally gained a testimony of God, I didn't desire it within my life anymore.

As for when the last time I viewed porn, it wasn't very long ago. It was about a month or so ago, when a movie I was watching all of a sudden showed more than I expected to see. Needless to say I didn't finish watching that movie.

I am sorry for what you went through.  Most of all..I am sorry that so many of us immediately decide it is because we are lacking..not good enough.  I am happy that you and your children learned from a painful process found peace. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Was this the first time she was aware of his porn use? And her automatic conclusion is divorce? What happened to trying to save a marriage? Is porn a good reason to divorce?

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

I do not know the extent of this persons problem.  But it is pretty clear Mormon's and the LDS Church leaders may be creating a problem that in many instances is not a real addiction or as problematic as the Church makes it out to be.  And in some cases the way any conservative religion teaches on this subject can create a situation that could end up driving the person into a pattern of shame and self worthlessness where they turn to the porn or whatever as relief. Then they have self loathing again and the spiral continues.

Please to misconstrue this to say I think porn issues are a ok especially in a believing LDS marriage. I understand the concern they can cause both spouses.  But I also think it many instances the problem can be over blown.

I am not an expert on this but have read some on it and dealt with it quite a bit as a bishop.  Youth who had a masturbation issues thinking they were addicts.  A man who masturbated periodically who had a wife who in their older years was just not much interested in sex any more thinking he had a major problem. So the question really is how serious is this man's problem and is it a problem for which a marriage should be ended over? 

I don't imagine this is a popular response here but here are some resources from an LDS therapist on this subject:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/12/op-ed.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/12/sex-addiction-diagnosis-harmful.html

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Teancum

[mapman]

I don't have any personal experience with marriage and I don't know how useful advice from strangers is going to be, but I do have some thoughts on the matter. From my point of view it sounds like the biggest mistake here was the lying/hiding by the husband. It seems to me that his porn use should have been brought up when they were seriously considering marriage. My other thought is that looking at porn is normal behavior that most men and women indulge in at least occasionally and probably in a lot of cases not really an addiction. I'm all for teaching people that it isn't a good thing and spiritually harmful, but it is also harmful to people to become so ashamed of it and make them feel so horrible about themselves that they hide it and act out in a compulsive shame-cycle. There have got to be better ways for society to deal with it than what we are doing now. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that a spouse looking at porn necessarily means that they don't love and aren't committed to their partner, but that they need help to deal with the behavior they learned when they were growing up. Getting professional help from a therapist could potentially really help him out. Nevertheless, lying and hiding things from your spouse I'm sure would make it hard to trust him, and I'm not really in the position to judge anyone's actions.

Edited December 29, 2016 by mapman

[Tacenda]

40 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Was this the first time she was aware of his porn use? And her automatic conclusion is divorce? What happened to trying to save a marriage? Is porn a good reason to divorce?

I agree with you. I think too many LDS women think porn is like the devil. I think some porn to them is blown up. And I lay blame on the church and places like this....http://www.lifechangingservices.org/sonsofhelaman/resources/ .

If the church wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, I highly believe it wouldn't turn into a problem like it has. There is an epidemic of LDS men and probably a few women with these addictions. I wonder if they ever needed to be turned into addictions in the first place. I may need Blue Dreams to chime in, if she'd like. To either agree somewhat or disagree.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, mapman said:

I don't have any personal experience with marriage and I don't know how useful advice from strangers is going to be, but I do have some thoughts on the matter. From my point of view it sounds like the biggest mistake here was the lying/hiding by the husband. It seems to me that his porn use should have been brought up when they were seriously considering marriage. My other thought is that looking at porn is normal behavior that most men and women indulge in at least occasionally and probably in a lot of cases not really an addiction. I'm all for teaching people that it isn't a good thing and spiritually harmful, but it is also harmful to people to become so ashamed of it and make them feel so horrible about themselves that they hide it and act out in a compulsive shame-cycle. There have got to be better ways for society to deal with it than what we are doing now. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that a spouse looking at porn necessarily means that they don't love and aren't committed to their partner, but that they need help to deal with the behavior they learned when they were growing up. Getting professional help from a therapist could potentially really help him out if. Nevertheless, lying and hiding things from your spouse I'm sure would make it hard to trust him, and I'm not really in the position to judge anyone's actions.

Bingo!

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I do not know the extent of this persons problem.  But it is pretty clear Mormon's and the LDS Church leaders may be creating a problem that in many instances is not a real addiction or as problematic as the Church makes it out to be.  And in some cases the way any conservative religion teaches on this subject can create a situation that could end up driving the person into a pattern of shame and self worthlessness where they turn to the porn or whatever as relief. Then they have self loathing again and the spiral continues.

Please to misconstrue this to say I think porn issues are a ok especially in a believing LDS marriage. I understand the concern they can cause both spouses.  But I also think it many instances the problem can be over blown.

I am not an expert on this but have read some on it and dealt with it quite a bit as a bishop.  Youth who had a masturbation issues thinking they were addicts.  A man who masturbated periodically who had a wife who in their older years was just not much interested in sex any more thinking he had a major problem. So the question really is how serious is this man's problem and is it a problem for which a marriage should be ended over? 

I don't imagine this is a popular response here but here are some resources from an LDS therapist on this subject:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/12/op-ed.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/12/sex-addiction-diagnosis-harmful.html

 

 

 

Excellent! I gave my opinion before reading yours and Mapman's thoughts. 

[morgan.deane]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

If I was dating somebody and they asked me this it would probably be the end of the relationship.  Not because I'm some addled porn addict but because it suggests a world view that is incredibly unhealthy. I can think of a variety of issues that are way more important to know than the partners porn use. A relationship should start with basic compatibility issues of course.  But I've been on dates that put a long spiritual check list on the table almost immediately. Assuming the relationship is at a serious point where you get into the weeds of somebody's potential deal breaking behaviors, I can still think of a dozen issues arguably just as important to know about such as their tendency to use emotional manipulation, financially cheat, have inappropriate boundaries with in laws, gossip, physically abuse, exhibit mental health issues, and their potential fidelity which can affect the marriage just as much if not more than the porn use from the man.  (My marriage was pretty awesome if you couldn't tell from that list.)  So if a potential partner elevates this issue above all others to the point that she will surprise interrogate me in what your overheard conversation seems like an inappropriate way then I'm walking for the door and she can get the check.  

This is leaving aside a variety of issues that this touches upon such as the church culture that has elevated this issue, the unhealthiness of that elevation for relationships and men in the church (as several others have correctly mentioned already), and the debate over the diagnostic function and efficacy of using "addiction" terminology to describe these behaviors.     

Edited December 29, 2016 by morgan.deane

[Bernard Gui]

Please don't turn this into a debate about what pornography may ot may not be,

Edited December 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, waveslider said:

You can't know for sure if you are marrying someone who is not going to destroy the marriage, by addiction or anything else for that matter. You can't know that any marriage won't fail. My temple marriage didn't fail because of porn, but it did fail. I fasted and prayed and received the definite answer that I was to be sealed to my now ex wife. It almost destroyed me because I knew so well that it was blessed from God that I should be sealed to her. I mistakenly thought that God's blessing meant that it could never fail if I remained worthy of it. I took it as a sign that somehow I blew it, even though I tried (very imperfectly I might add) to the best of my ability to be a good husband, father, and honoring priesthood holder. I basically gave up on life thinking, "if I could try my absolute best and still blow something that God gave to me in a matter of six years, what makes me think I can ever even make it to the Celestial Kingdom at all?" It wasn't until I also learned, through personal revelation, amidst suicidal thoughts, that my kids and I needed to experience that divorce in order to gain whatever it is that we gained from such an experience.... That there was no other way to learn what it was that we were/are to learn from it all. I have actually found peace in this answer, where I saw nothing but but self failure before because I thought that it wasn't in God's plan for us to experience such a divorce. It changed to now actually being able to honestly thank God for these experiences instead.

I think we need to learn to love no matter what, and be willing to submit to all that our Father in Heaven sees fit to inflict upon us. We need to commit to our companion, no matter what unseen flaws in their character might be, unless it becomes too dangerous to be that committed if that person turns out to be some kind of dangerous, psycho, nut job. We need to learn to forgive and still love them, even if we can never trust them again. Most importantly we need to fast and pray when making such a critical decision as finding an eternal companion.

Sorry that there isn't a nice clean and safe answer to such a problem, but life itself isn't any type of guarantee that we will have a prefect, fun and happily ever after type of life. It is a leap of faith. Remember that not all people who are exposed to porn get addicted to it either. I was exposed to it at a very young age (8 years old), and while I was very interested in it at first, once I finally gained a testimony of God, I didn't desire it within my life anymore.

As for when the last time I viewed porn, it wasn't very long ago. It was about a month or so ago, when a movie I was watching all of a sudden showed more than I expected to see. Needless to say I didn't finish watching that movie.

Thank you for the heartfelt response. The Guis have had to deal with the loss of loved ones to other addictions. We have come to the same place you describe...we learn things we could learn no other way and our journey does not end here.

Having porn pop up unexpectedly is not the same as spending hours actively seeking it out while the rest of the one's life fades away into oblivion. Anyone who resists gets the tip o' my hat.

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, mapman said:

I don't have any personal experience with marriage and I don't know how useful advice from strangers is going to be, but I do have some thoughts on the matter. From my point of view it sounds like the biggest mistake here was the lying/hiding by the husband. It seems to me that his porn use should have been brought up when they were seriously considering marriage. My other thought is that looking at porn is normal behavior that most men and women indulge in at least occasionally and probably in a lot of cases not really an addiction. I'm all for teaching people that it isn't a good thing and spiritually harmful, but it is also harmful to people to become so ashamed of it and make them feel so horrible about themselves that they hide it and act out in a compulsive shame-cycle. There have got to be better ways for society to deal with it than what we are doing now. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that a spouse looking at porn necessarily means that they don't love and aren't committed to their partner, but that they need help to deal with the behavior they learned when they were growing up. Getting professional help from a therapist could potentially really help him out. Nevertheless, lying and hiding things from your spouse I'm sure would make it hard to trust him, and I'm not really in the position to judge anyone's actions.

I have a close friend who has experience with this and it definitely was the lying that did the most harm. 

However, eventually the porn habit became an affair habit, so it definitely became about more than the lying. 

She stayed with him though and they are doing well. It's taken months and literally thousands of dollars in therapy though. And she's still recovering emotionally. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

I wonder who can be married then? if the lady says that "all young men" are exposed to it and women won't want that......we'll be left with unmarried women and porn addicted men

The lady was voicing her concerns over what she has learned about pornography because of her daughter's horrible experience. It is no longer a question of if children are exposed to pornography but when. It has become ubiquitous and the age of first exposure is younger than ever. What would you suggest people do to defend themselves?

[cinepro]

Testing 2

Edited December 30, 2016 by cinepro

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I'd ask for a definition of pornography. I wouldn't want to be admitting to doing something that I didn't do. 

Personally I get more upset with modern films portrayals of violence against women than any nakedness that may be shown. My wife agrees.

There's no point in debating a definition of pornography. Violence or nakedness, the dehumanizing objectification is essentially the same. How would you answer the young lady's question... "What can I do?" 

[mapman]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have a close friend who has experience with this and it definitely was the lying that did the most harm. 

However, eventually the porn habit became an affair habit, so it definitely became about more than the lying. 

She stayed with him though and they are doing well. It's taken months and literally thousands of dollars in therapy though. And she's still recovering emotionally. 

I know from personal experience that getting professional help for your emotional problems can really transform your life. I have at various points in my life suffered from some emotional problems and it took me way longer than it should have to go get help, but it has helped me deal with some things that happened to me when I was growing up and to deal with my emotions, really making my life a lot better. It can be really difficult for a lot of people to go get help (especially for men for some reason), but it's best not to let problems fester inside you.

I'm sorry to hear that happened to your friend, that sounds terrible! I hope that everything works out for the best for her!

Edited December 29, 2016 by mapman

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

you can't know. You can just have faith and do what is right.

and if you do marry someone with that addiction you love them and help them and forgive them as much as you can to save your marriage. Obviously some reach the point where they can't be saved. It takes two to make a marriage work. Just remember that the gospel doesn't just allow us to be married for eternity. It allows us to become people who we will want to be with for eternity

Important points, but in this and several other cases when presented with the choice between the addiction or the family, the men have chosen the addiction. At that point, what do you do? 

Porn addiction can go unnoticed by loved ones for decades. While It's much more difficult to hide substance addictions, the devastation is much the same when the porn addiction comes into the light of day. Should a person be up front about these problems before marriage, or is it better to hide them and go ahead with the marriage and family and then deal with it when it is discovered?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think that is an excellent answer. The subject has to be openly discussed and the conversation discerned by the Spirit.

That is the point my friend and his wife are making. As it becomes more common, our response has to adapt. They are suggesting assertive discovery steps be taken and appropriate repentance and recovery happen before commitments go too far and heartbreak becomes inevitable.