morgan.deane

I'm a real Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan...because his book sounds so bad now I kind of want to read it. I don't want to fund his empire so maybe I can find a copy at DI or something.

This one always makes me laugh. I stopped going to the actual Lone Mountain because of existing traffic and crowds. To me at least, it started to feel like Red Rock. No one will notice the temple traffic.

Thanks. Not sure how that happened but the online edition I read is often glitchy.

An update on the temple in the local paper: https://eedition.reviewjournal.com/infinity/article_popover_share.aspx?guid=80ffa86d-11ee-44d2-9d9b-622a0a3999e2&share=true The biggest thing I noticed is that, according to this article, the city doesn't count the steeple for purposes of height. According to city code, the building is technically 68 feet. This makes me feel rather validated because its the most frequent argument I've made. Some of the nimbys have compared the temple to the Durango casino, but that is really misleading since outside of the steeple the temple isn't nearly as big as everyone makes it out to be. Anyways, I found the story informative.

Good to know, thanks. The whole valley is growing quickly so I wouldn't rule out more schools.

I'm color blind so its always a bit tough to read these things, but if I read the map correctly, A1 and A2 refer to the rural preservation zones north and east of the proposed temple lot. (That matches the map here that I already provided: https://www.donohueteam.com/NWSite/RNP.htm) I was referring to the temple, which as you said, isn't disallowed by zoning. I was also referring to everything south of Alexander road, which is not limited to 2 units per acre. This is the same disinformation that is being peddled around town trying to put the temple in a zone where it doesn't belong and trying to act like this area isn't already surrounded by suburban sprawl. I go to Lone Mountain often, and the area is nice, but the mountain has a city that's grown around it, so its not some bucolic getaway even with limits in part of the area. (In fact, I've stopped going as much recently because its turning into Redrock and its just too crowded! lol.) Please see the satellite imagery I provided. It wouldn't hurt to take more careful look at the map YOU PROVIDED as well. Best wishes.

Speaking of parking lots and traffic, there are three parcels right next to the proposed Lone Mountain temple owned by the school district. (As best I can tell based on this map: https://facilities.ccsd.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/CCSD-LIM-Las-Vegas_W19.pdf ) If the locals don't like the supposed mega church and parking lot, they really won't like the parking lots and traffic of future schools. Seems to me the temple would have regular, smaller use mostly on nights and weekends. Compared to the massive amounts of usage every weekday for nine months plus two surges a day per location. Back to my point in my first post, opponents of the Lone Mountain temple are fighting a battle they've already lost against a temple parking lot that is demonstrably better than the alternatives of massive school parking lots and traffic. Of course my point doesn't account for the size of the temple. But the local area is already zoned for schools and residential units which will destroy views too. It just takes one new apartment complex for which the area is already zoned which means they can't stop the change anyway. And I've already seen lots of anti Mormon talking points mixed in with view, lighting, character of the neighborhood concerns. To me it simply seems like the major talking points are different, but the motivation remains the same.

I looked at some houses that far out when I first moved here, but I bought something more in town and don't personally have that problem. I have seen coyotes out on the edge of town though. People's ring cameras catch all sorts of animals out on the edge.

Good point. I was more refuting people who think Las Vegas is like Blade Runner and we all have some neon building lighting up our rooms at night.

I live in North Las Vegas (though the Lone Mountain isn't a straight shot so its only shaves about ten minutes off the drive time compared to the current location.) Those who make comments about the lights of Las Vegas don't realize that the city is huge. There are lots of parts of town that have nothing to do with the strip. There are parts far enough away and sparsely populated enough that have dark skies and nice views. That leads to the second point which is that there is a small rural preservation zone near the proposed Lone Mountain temple, but the temple is not in that zone. I had to look at three poor maps (thanks for the cross streets church: https://www.thechurchnews.com/temples/2024/02/26/exterior-renderings-released-lone-mountain-nevada-mckinney-texas-birmingham-england-temple/ and the rural preservation zones: https://www.donohueteam.com/NWSite/RNP.htm cross checked with google maps) but the temple is not in one of those zones. It looks to be in the missing piece in the southwest part of the zone. But everyone wants those views which means everything not in the preservation zone is growing fast. That leads to the ironic part is that most of these nimbys only moved to that area in the last 10 years, maybe 20 max. But due to all the housing developments in as little as a few years there aren't going to be any "views" or rural character in that area anyway. Its mostly that way already but there are always parcels to backfill, hills to climb, and shopping or gas stations to add. So this is mostly really rich people on big lots that want to stay exclusive. Based on satellite images this part of town is already a little oasis surrounded by typical urban sprawl with or without the temple. If you look at satellite photos on a larger level Northwest LV looks like a mouth ready to close its jaws around the remaining areas open to development: https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/urban-growth-las-vegas-nevada-usa I'm not sure if its been said yet, but the 226 feet is the steeple height. I haven't been able to find information, but the rest of the temple seems much smaller. But it doesn't matter, this region is fighting a losing fight. Hope that helps. Personally, I look forward to having this conversation dozens of times over the next little while, only with the added grace and maturity of facebook discussions and casual anti Mormon bigotry. /s

This is a really good point. I'm normally all about discussing things from every angle. I've been blogging a long time and have a long list of books that show how much I like thought and discussion: https://mormonwar.blogspot.com/ But this subject is different. It really hits me hard because I've lived it for so long and it goes the heart of my salvation and if God even exists and hears my thousands upon thousands of prayers. Even though my marriage was bad from the start, those few years it felt so good not to have the weight of church culture on me it was like having the boot off of my neck. For the first time in my life I felt like I kind of belonged. But now its been another 15 of having that constant pressure and isolation. No matter how many good things I have in my life- time with my daughter, great concerts, a really fun movie, publishing yet another article or book, precious time with friends, occasionally a decent date- I still come home to an empty house and all of that pressure. I'd also add this thread is a good example of the difficulty in even talking about it. As there are a few people that kind of get it, usually because they are single or close to one, but many more that don't get it. I have much more empathy for women, minorities and the alphabet community getting talked at by people who haven't really experienced what they have. Getting back to your good point, perhaps its a luxury of not being personally feeling it that lets people go with the discuss from every angle approach. Writing about this I can feel my emotional stiches starting to burst and its definitely not a fun academic exercise, so I wish everyone the best and I'm probably moving on. Thanks your comments and understanding. Good luck! PS: I was watching this episode of Frasier as I wrote this, and one of my favorite scenes in all of television came on. They discuss all of their failed relationships and all the times they tried and failed, then Niles throws his wedding ring off the balcony and they share this moment. I'm definitely out there with them: https://youtu.be/cOzVgUX2Np4?si=HQzUrtfz-t729zNn

Saying "yes but" to someone's pain is also unhelpful. Would it have killed you to say, "thats tough" or just say nothing at all? (It had been a few days so I thought the thread was dead and I was okay with that.) Honestly, your post is more of the same that makes church so miserable. Just another married person invalidating the feelings of a single person and talking down to them with unhelpful advice. You should know better since you were single for awhile but apparently don't. I'm glad you got married. But you "refused" a bunch of things which just sounds like toxic positivity. I'm positive if you were single for longer that attitude wouldn't have helped. Your advice for the rest of us apparently is to be like Abraham or Sarah and wait until we're ridiculously old, at best, before getting married. I have been single almost as long as it took the pioneers to built the Salt Lake Temple, and outside of an ironic chuckle, it doesn't help me feel better. I talked about that in my first post, the advice to look to things like that in scripture is the Mormon equivalent of life sucks and then you die. But the most frustrating is that singles aren't allowed to feel anything negative about it because we'll be accused of being bitter or angry. And "refusing to feel like a second class member" sure makes it sound like you were a second class member but you just worked hard to pretend otherwise. Having to constantly conform and spout happy nonsense they don't feel is part of why singles feel like they are being ripped apart. They experience feelings, and those feelings are valid even and, sometimes especially, if they are negative. Its why they go to places where they don't have to deny their feelings of frustration to repeat unhelpful mantras like God doesn't answer some prayers, or he answers them by denying the thing you seek. They go to places where their feelings matter instead of being something to "refuse." I especially dislike the rhetoric about prayers because there are plenty of places in the scriptures and in church culture where blessings are directly related to prayers and obedience. The Book of Mormon repeats a dozen times how following commandments will let you prosper in the land. And obedience on your mission brought baptisms. Jesus taught the parable of the unjust judge to teach us that even a corrupt magistrate will grant the answers of just, heartfelt requests. So how much more will your Father in Heaven want to bless you (Luke 18:1-8). I'd say blessing flowing from obedience is probably the dominant message of scriptures. Its so ubiquitous in church culture you often hear about the "I prayed about it and the next day a girl in class smiled at me" stories as you discussed. But when it comes time to get married suddenly God isn't a vending machine. Those teachings ring false and don't help. So thanks for sharing but no thanks.

A story like that is actually really painful for someone who has prayed unceasingly for decades without success.

Thanks. Someday I want to write a dark comedy about all my horrible dating experiences but I'm afraid it will just be dark.

That's a good question. Its a variety of factors that make singles activities extremely unhealthy ranging from internal dialogue, church dynamics, social dynamics, and how they interact with each other. Ironically enough, I'm not sure the activity is the problem, but its the singles and all those dynamics that would make just about any activity miserable. I should add that this is for midsingles ranging from about 30 to 45. I can't even imagine it getting worse after I hit 45. The internal dynamics are that you feel so much pressure to get married. We know we aren't getting any younger. Like the Tennyson poem, we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven. We are torn between really wanting to be accepted, and having these dreams, but realizing we are hanging out with the undesirable leftovers. The church dynamics mean we are often stuck doing really cheap and lame activities. We often have chaperones to events. This was more insulting when I was late YSA. But it still happens often. We have no budget for good activities so its often things thrown together. Like we had this Halloween "carnival" that was one guy that brought his computer to play some 3 d games (which was very fun tbh), but another was like fishing with string and paper clips for various missionary activities and a piece of candy when they commitment patterned us to say yes. In a larger sense the church dynamics mean we don't fit, but also that the standards are so high that we are guaranteed not to fit. We don't get married and stay married at 20. But all the women want an active temple recommend holder. You'd think everyone with a horrible story about why their temple marriage was run off into a ditch would recognize that having a recommend doesn't guarantee quality. But they have their gospel checklist that they made when they were 17 and they are sticking to it. Because I don't experience it I can't comment as well about the women, but many guys still want a traditional stay at home wife and they get intimidated by strong women with a career, which is odd considering it should be more concerning if a single parent didn't at least have a job to support their family. Outside of those factors, the quality is bad. I show up and sometimes I think to myself, are these my dating options or the front line of the Green Bay Packers? Did they just call for Han Solo to be put in carbonite? I know that sounds mean, but I'm sure all the married people out there went up and talked to their future spouse because they thought they were dumpy and ugly. I just want what everyone else has and that includes the spark of attraction. It doesn't help that every activity is loaded with sugary junk food. I saw one girl not get a bun for her burger and her key chain had the same fitness club as me, (unsurprisingly, she was the cutest one there), but otherwise I'm the only person that seems to try. There are lots of people with mental problems as well. I don't know what to say, I feel really bad for them and maybe having some serious dating or life coaches can help. I hear from my girls that are friends that many guys also live in their parent's basements or have a criminal record. And then you have the normal social difficulties amplified by all of the above and decades of failure. You're scared of yet more rejection, shy, often introverted, but feel the pressure to be social and want to be accepted with all your heart (but you're second class even among the second class people because you don't have a recommend), you're sick of the "you're so great speech" as you get dumped, you have eternity riding on the first 30 seconds of every interaction it seems. You have apostles say that its wrong to just "hang out." (Even though the relaxed, intimate social settings are where I do best, and ironically, get more dates.) So all of our actions feel like the words of the TS Eliot poem: Shape without form, shade without color, paralyzed force, gesture without motion...quiet and meaningless...As wind in dry grass Or rats' feet over broken glass Even if you take the romantic angle out of it, I don't even have fun hanging out with the other singles. I try my best to be open and friendly, but they aren't entertaining or engaging people. They are boring. There is no way to change it which adds to the hopelessness and decade after decade of unfulfilled desire. There are some groups that do unofficial activities. Over holiday weekends people love coming to Vegas so we get good crowds. But its often the same clique of people from the single's ward with the same dysfunction. I go with them to activities and they talk over me, ignore what I have to say, and spend their time gossiping. I once got all tea about St. George...and I live in Vegas. I remember a Memorial day pool party. Sounds fun right, lots of barbecue and I even got a decent picture for social media. But when I left I walked around the backyard three times and no one noticed me, waved or said goodbye, so I did the Irish good bye. I went home that night and dreamed that I was the invisible Avenger. We went to a restaurant for my birthday but Iron Man and Dr. Strange got in a fight, damaged a pillar, and were kicked out of the restaurant. (Wong fixed it though because he's cool.) So I sat there by myself and wished at least on my birthday the other avengers would care. I usually have more fun on my own. There is an arcade bar that lets me play mario kart all night, I grab a coke and a hot dog and I end up talking to more people and having a better time than I do at singles activities. But, I don't really fit in there. I'm kind of goofy and too Mormon for the bar crowd. And then I have no chance of finding the dream of a cute Mormon girl that has been deeply instilled in me since I was a kid. So I go along anyway to the church activities. All of the above combines to form a gordian knot of toxic, depressing, hopeless dysfunction. I don't have fun in the least, in fact, I am absolutely, completely miserable. And someone from the sunshine police always comes along to tell me just to smile more or put myself out there...oh gee really, thats all I needed after all these decades? I'm too Mormon for non Mormons, but not Mormon enough for Mormon girls, but I feel compelled to at least try. Its tough to even describe so I'm sorry if this was all over the place. Anyways, thanks everyone for the kind and accepting words. I don't have many places to share this so I appreciate you letting me share.

My experience is similar to the handful of other late marrying people on this thread. Though I didn't marry late, I'm divorced and in my 40s. Second class citizen is a pretty apt description. The experience of being single forever in the church is knowing you're different and less than in a thousand small ways. For example, I've had multiple Elder's quorum activities that consisted of "date nights" as though no one bothered to remember that some people don't have built in dates. My ward just had a valentines day activity like that. I've had to walk past giant walls filled with wedding announcements. Or the sacrament talks that are mostly annoying meet cutes. Some of the second classness is more implied, like the single's ward weekly institute teacher was younger and less qualified than me, but apparently he got the job because he was married. My daughter didn't get playdates because Mormon married women think its inappropriate to be seen talking to a single man. When I was in the hospital I'm not sure the relief society even knew, let alone cared, because again, single man. I've heard that called the "empathy gap." Even though they are literally a compassionate society, I've felt more compassion from some random government official when that hospital visit made me apply for help. You've seen some of it on this thread. You have lots of married people that feel the need to talk for us and about us. Every once in awhile you'll get some talk, doctrinal point, or stat that is supposed to make you feel better. The talks don't really help when you've been clinging to them for 20 years (in the case of High priest of good things to come) or 30 (the Hinckley talk on singles). Singles are supposedly half the population of the church, but I know of maybe 2 in my ward and that didn't change the valentines day "date night." Eventually you need something to change, not more lame happy talk. The idea that we'll get every blessing in the after life is the most counter productive thing ever. Never, ever, ever, say that to a single person. Whatever utility or comfort it might have ever brought is gone. Its the Mormon equivalent of life sucks and then you die. You have to wait your entire life watching pimply 20 years join the club, give the annoying meet cute stories in sacrament, and your reward is to wait until after you grow old and die. Sorry, but that's a really crappy way to try and make someone feel better. I was friends with an executive secretary and he says 90% of mid singles are inactive. Not sure how they calculated that but it sounds about right. That's because eventually you notice and deeply feel two different value systems. One system says that you don't fit. You're over the hill. 20 years behind everyone else that got married 6 months after their missions. There are no options, especially if you aren't a super active, temple recommend holder. You missed your chance to be happy. As one of the my ex Mormon single friends said, and I hate that she is correct, the pressure is real, but the promised blessings aren't. Out in the world you meet women that value kindness and decency and not how often you bore yourself at church. You see lots of single people who are valuable leaders and contributors. In fact, you see lots of attractive singles! Not the same five mutants from table nine. You go to social activities that you enjoy, instead of, oh yeah, single people are welcome too, or here's some infantilizing kids games we threw together with 3 dollars and some paperclips. And you're still considered fairly young and in the prime of your life. So of course one of those sound better and you pursue the one that makes you feel like a full citizen in life and not a second class one.

Thanks for linking to the article. I saved everyone the trouble and read it but kind of wished I didn't. The article didn't present anything beyond the typical nonsense that dominates academia. It was a casting call of unimpressive scholars in various gender and indigenous studies that I'v never heard of, plus Ben Park. One scholar complained that the movie didn't address missing indigenous women which seemed bizarre. Another filled out their liberal bingo card by connecting the movie to Christian nationalism. Ben Park offered some overly broad and dismissive comments about conservatives "at war." Their only common denominator seemed to be an obsession with identity and disdain for conservatives. So, about what I would expect from the Salt Lake Tribune and not very useful.

His video complaining about the church's response made me LESS likely to see it. But I disliked the knee jerk anti Mormon reactions to the movie, I watch lots of Mystery Science Theater 3000, and I feel like I should support it so when a good independent Mormon film comes along movie theaters and studios would be less instead of more likely to reject it. Besides, I've watched Marvel movies for less. I saw it today and here are my thoughts I wrote on my facebook: Well, it wasn't the WORST movie I've ever seen. But definitely bottom tier. It had its moments that were decent and beat out the Book of Mormon movie at least. It had some good shots, like the use of a branch of a tree on a Nephite scroll to tell Nephite history. Any time the movie stayed close to scripture it was good, though I think the director tried to fit too much explanation and preaching into it, when a man with a haunted past and high principles would have been intriguing with good writing. Billy Zane was actually good, which I expected because he's a legit star and the villains in bad movies at least get to twirl their mustache and chew some scenery. (Though he's totally broke if he agreed to be in this.) I think 90% of his lines were in the trailer lol. He seemed to do this with an Irish accent which was just odd and highlighted the many other suspect creative choices like some use of Hebraisms, but then the use of Indian. speak. like. white. man., or trying to embellish any part of the story beyond what's in scriptures. It was a confusing mish mash of Last of the Mohicans, Gladiator (especially at the end), Robert the Bruce, and Lord of the Rings. It tried to force in Nephite history and preach at times when it should have focused on a good story. Hollywood gets a lot of crap, but when you watch a movie that is devoid of any top or even medium shelf talent in almost every area (except Billy Zane), you definitely wish for that talented writing, acting, directing, a bigger budget etc. I suddenly feel like I'm too harsh on Michael Bay and Zack Snyder.

I heard the phrase keep your powder dry many times in the military. It just means to delay taking your shot or making a final decision. Since Tim Ballard started vigorously defending himself within days, such as that video of him in Boston just a few days after this blew up, he seems to have ignored that advice. But if he weren't a vainglorious person he wouldn't have gotten himself in this trouble in the first place so I'm not surprised he couldn't exercise some patience, or "keep his powder dry."

That is an insightful point. Becoming what you fear or hate was discussed as a feature of The Paranoid Style of American Politics by Richard Hofstader: https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/

This is crazy. So the person that has a significant amount of credible evidence against him is not even remotely questioned. But after reading a random story in the Old Testament, they condemn the current leaders that have no credible accusations against them. They claimed the sons of Phineas were seducing the women in the temple, unironically ignoring the sexual allegations against Tim Ballard. Their evidence was some anecdotal sexual sins among low level leadership. But that doesn't mean the quorum of the 12 has fallen. I don't even have the words for how ridiculous they are. Edit: I took one for the team and listened to the whole thing. Their evidence consists of some random scriptures (Sons of Eli, Abinadi, Ezekiel) talking about fallen prophets. They dislike Elder Ballard's teachings that aren't as strident against homosexuals as they would like. They disliked a comment form Neil Anderson because the individual was from the NAACP. This is ironic, because they list many of his abhorrent beliefs or associations of the NAACP (communist, pro abortion etc.) the same way cancel culture does. They think that being kind and loving to the transgender community is "promoting it."(22:36) They dislike a long law in Arizona about it. She made a good point that laws are too long and when they get so long it becomes entrapping. Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn I guess. They dislike that the leadership maintained "resolute silence" about the Sound of Freedom, until they attacked Tim Ballard. If they oppose Tim Ballard there must be something sketchy. "Wonder what kind of involvement they have with human trafficking business." I am truly dumber for listening to this. Ballard had a such a hold on them that they would condemn the church with conspiracy theories before questioning that maybe these accusations arise because Tim Ballard made all of these mistakes. And they believe that can't happen because he is the one saving kids. I'm literally shaking my head.

Ballard's comments about good standing came in response to the church's pr statement in Vice that started this. During a tour in Boston Ballard defended himself. During this defense Ballard reported a conversation with his stake president that said he was in good standing and he tried to claim the pr statement came from a rogue pr staffer with the church. Then Kwaku and Glen Beck made bizarre arguments on twitter that the church's statement was "effectively" or "socially" excommunicating Ballard, and because it was done outside of priesthood channels it was illegitimate. (They were both deleted a short time after being posted.) So if Dehlin's report is accurate, it turns out several talking points used in Ballard's defense are going up in smoke, most importantly, the argument that he was in good standing.

Vice came out with an article with specific names and concerns of ex employees, as well as documents where they are discussed. Ballard comes off as very arrogant and dismisses many of the concerns that have now discredited him. (Such as complaints about their cowboy tactics, sensationalist narratives about militarized raids, the behavior of operatives, Ballard talking about arrests when they have no arresting power.) To answer the concern above, OUR also seems like a pass through organization. Where they send money to various groups and claim credit for their work. So I imagine they make two small donations to active groups and claim those are their missions and operations they conduct weekly. https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5y8pm/operation-underground-railroad-investigation-misled-donors-lied

Sarah Allen just said that they will have the book out, hopefully by Christmas. And they'll release an article every two weeks online.

Thanks for your interest. Fair will publish these shortly. (I think they should do a print book too. Nothing beats putting something you wrote on your bookshelf.) I thought I noticed a typo so I already had the file out and attached it. Fair 2023 BoM Conference.docx