Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

On the aspect of addiction, my wife thinks I have an addiction to this board.  But I do the math, ~ 840 posts since 2013 = half-dozen/week.  I've got it under control.  It doesn't impact my work.  It doesn't impact (much) the time I have with her and/or our kids.  I can stop whenever I need to (e.g., you've never seen me posting on Christmas Day).   So I'm good, right?  I don't have a problem.  I don't need help.

Some of you, though...

;0)

--Erik

A light-hearted interlude, but I no longer trivialize true addiction. It's Satan's perfect tool destroying everyone in its wake.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I can stop

Exhibiting signs of denial...check!

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it's important to remember that you don't marry perfection, you marry potential (someone else said that first but i don't remember who it was) and there is no way to guarantee that your husband (or yourself) won't make decisions that will ruin everything in the future.  

But, you've still got to be smart about it.  Lots of communication, honesty, prayer, and fasting before choosing a marriage partner are essential.

True, but the issue is discovering an addiction that began years before the couple even met, persisted through missions, courtship, marriage, childbirth, Christmases, blessings, birthdays, church leadership callings, etc. What was the potential for this turning out well? What kind of communication would you recommend? Asking outright if there is a problem before making a commitment?

[rodheadlee]

When I got married I said For Better or For Worse and in sickness and in health. There's going to be many bumps in the relationship. You have to work through these or you'll never have an eternal relationship. I haven't been married in the temple yet so our marriage is temporal. After being married for 42 years I now feel ready to be sealed for all eternity.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

Was this the first time she was aware of his porn use? And her automatic conclusion is divorce? What happened to trying to save a marriage? Is porn a good reason to divorce?

No. This is after discovery, priesthood involvement, counseling and therapy, multiple relapses, and a sad inability to put family above addiction. I have seen the same pattern several times now. Surely you are not blaming the woman? Porn use may not be a sufficient reason for divorce, but the fallout of porn addiction is. I'm not sure what your point is.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I'd ask for a definition of pornography. I wouldn't want to be admitting to doing something that I didn't do. 

Personally I get more upset with modern films portrayals of violence against women than any nakedness that may be shown. My wife agrees.

Violence in general.  I was just watching a new (as in current and not from the 50s) show where it pushed the way too common idea that the best way to resolve animosity between men was to beat each other black and blue because that leads to mutual respect while being a caring person who uses their heart and mind just leads to ridicule.  It is everywhere for males of any age.

I wanted to puke. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I do not know the extent of this persons problem.  But it is pretty clear Mormon's and the LDS Church leaders may be creating a problem that in many instances is not a real addiction or as problematic as the Church makes it out to be.  And in some cases the way any conservative religion teaches on this subject can create a situation that could end up driving the person into a pattern of shame and self worthlessness where they turn to the porn or whatever as relief. Then they have self loathing again and the spiral continues.

Please to misconstrue this to say I think porn issues are a ok especially in a believing LDS marriage. I understand the concern they can cause both spouses.  But I also think it many instances the problem can be over blown.

I am not an expert on this but have read some on it and dealt with it quite a bit as a bishop.  Youth who had a masturbation issues thinking they were addicts.  A man who masturbated periodically who had a wife who in their older years was just not much interested in sex any more thinking he had a major problem. So the question really is how serious is this man's problem and is it a problem for which a marriage should be ended over? 

I don't imagine this is a popular response here but here are some resources from an LDS therapist on this subject:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/12/op-ed.html

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/mormontherapist/2016/12/sex-addiction-diagnosis-harmful.html

This goes way beyond some issue with masturbation. Mormons and other repressive religious groups aren't the only ones concerned. Here is a non-LDS source that addresses the question of the OP if you are interested...

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/2016/05/04/children-and-young-peoples-exposure-pornography

and 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10720162.2012.660431

Quote

ABSTRACT

The recent proliferation of Internet-enabled technology has significantly changed the way adolescents encounter and consume sexually explicit material. Once confined to a personal computer attached to a telephone line, the Internet is now available on laptops, mobile phones, video game consoles, and other electronic devices. With the growth of the Internet has come easier and more ubiquitous access to pornography. The purpose of this article was to review the recent (i.e., 2005 to present) literature regarding the impact of Internet pornography on adolescents. Specifically, this literature review examined the impact of Internet pornography on sexual attitudes, beliefs, behaviors, and sexual aggression. The authors also discuss the literature related to the influence of sexually explicit Internet material on self-concept, body image, social development, as well as the expanding body of research on adolescent brain function and physical development. Finally, recommendations for future research were discussed, based on this literature review.

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, mapman said:

I know from personal experience that getting professional help for your emotional problems can really transform your life. I have at various points in my life suffered from some emotional problems and it took me way longer than it should have to go get help, but it has helped me deal with some things that happened to me when I was growing up and to deal with my emotions, really making my life a lot better. It can be really difficult for a lot of people to go get help (especially for men for some reason), but it's best not to let problems fester inside you.

I'm sorry to hear that happened to your friend, that sounds terrible! I hope that everything works out for the best for her!

Very true.

Because her husband was sincerely repentant and also did not place any blame on her, it has been possible for them to move forward as a couple.  She is still dealing with the consequences of his choices though, so the road is long for her.  I think it's getting easier to walk though.

[mapman]

I think it is worth pointing out that the majority of psychologists would say that labeling compulsive sexual behavior as an "addiction" is misleading, if not straight up harmful. I don't think that there is a consensus on a lot of these issues among the scientific community, but a lot of the studies that groups like "Fight the New Drug" use is far from being generally accepted fact. The major difference between actual addictions and other compulsive behavior is that addictions are caused by chemicals ingested into the body, while other compulsive behaviors like procrastination, eating disorders, sexual compulsions, etc. are usually symptoms of deeper emotional problems. They are similar in that they both feed into a cycle of shame and pleasure-seeking, but they require different treatment. A person with unhealthy compulsions doesn't need to just go cold turkey, they would instead need help with the underlying emotional problem. Also, unlike addictions, the compulsive behaviors aren't themselves addictive. Lots of people eat without having eating disorders or look at porn occasionally without it becoming compulsive, for example.

The rhetoric comparing porn to drugs I think is harmful. It makes people fearful of porn and want to hide their use of it and is way over the top. There are a lot of things that we think are bad that we don't compare to drug addictions. If you hear over and over again how porn is like a drug and everyone who looks at it is assumed to be an addict, if you start to look at porn occasionally, you are going to start to act in a compulsive way because you are going to want to hide it and don't think you will be able to stop yourself. This is especially true if you are brought up in a household where it is drilled into you that sexuality is bad until you've been married and you feel bad about your sexual curiosity and urges and don't know any healthy outlets for those. I don't know all the answers, but I think that Elder Oaks' article on how porn use isn't always an addiction is a good first step to trying to fix this mess we've got ourselves into trying to deal with porn. I think a lot of kids get a lot of unhealthy hangups instilled within them when they go through puberty, not just in the church but in general, and this is a source of a lot of our problems later on in life.

I'm not a psychologist or anything, but I have read a bit about this topic since it is important to me, but if anyone with more knowledge wants to chime in, that would be appreciated.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That is the point my friend and his wife are making. As it becomes more common, our response has to adapt. They are suggesting assertive discovery steps be taken and appropriate repentance and recovery happen before commitments go too far and heartbreak becomes inevitable.

Kind of an update on the old-fashioned blood tests... People need to be honest about their HPV, genital warts and so forth as well. Porn is herpes of the mind.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

I don't have any personal experience with marriage and I don't know how useful advice from strangers is going to be, but I do have some thoughts on the matter. From my point of view it sounds like the biggest mistake here was the lying/hiding by the husband. It seems to me that his porn use should have been brought up when they were seriously considering marriage. My other thought is that looking at porn is normal behavior that most men and women indulge in at least occasionally and probably in a lot of cases not really an addiction. I'm all for teaching people that it isn't a good thing and spiritually harmful, but it is also harmful to people to become so ashamed of it and make them feel so horrible about themselves that they hide it and act out in a compulsive shame-cycle. There have got to be better ways for society to deal with it than what we are doing now. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that a spouse looking at porn necessarily means that they don't love and aren't committed to their partner, but that they need help to deal with the behavior they learned when they were growing up. Getting professional help from a therapist could potentially really help him out. Nevertheless, lying and hiding things from your spouse I'm sure would make it hard to trust him, and I'm not really in the position to judge anyone's actions.

Indeed. Of course it would be best to fix the problem before making commitments that will eventually make one's private problem a horrible problem for a lot of people. We're not talking about occasional exposure to erotica, but to actively seeking it out at a level that becomes uncontrollable and destructive. It goes way beyond "growing up." What does one do to protect oneself from lying and hiding an addiction that began long before the marriage? We would not be ok with our child marrying an alcoholic or crack addict. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, mapman said:

I think it is worth pointing out that the majority of psychologists would say that labeling compulsive sexual behavior as an "addiction" is misleading, if not straight up harmful. I don't think that there is a consensus on a lot of these issues among the scientific community, but a lot of the studies that groups like "Fight the New Drug" use is far from being generally accepted fact. The major difference between actual addictions and other compulsive behavior is that addictions are caused by chemicals ingested into the body, while other compulsive behaviors like procrastination, eating disorders, sexual compulsions, etc. are usually symptoms of deeper emotional problems. They are similar in that they both feed into a cycle of shame and pleasure-seeking, but they require different treatment. A person with unhealthy compulsions doesn't need to just go cold turkey, they would instead need help with the underlying emotional problem. Also, unlike addictions, the compulsive behaviors aren't themselves addictive. Lots of people eat without having eating disorders or look at porn occasionally without it becoming compulsive, for example.

The rhetoric comparing porn to drugs I think is harmful. It makes people fearful of porn and want to hide their use of it and is way over the top. There are a lot of things that we think are bad that we don't compare to drug addictions. If you hear over and over again how porn is like a drug and everyone who looks at it is assumed to be an addict, if you start to look at porn occasionally, you are going to start to act in a compulsive way because you are going to want to hide it and don't think you will be able to stop yourself. This is especially true if you are brought up in a household where it is drilled into you that sexuality is bad until you've been married and you feel bad about your sexual curiosity and urges and don't know any healthy outlets for those. I don't know all the answers, but I think that Elder Oaks' article on how porn use isn't always an addiction is a good first step to trying to fix this mess we've got ourselves into trying to deal with porn. I think a lot of kids get a lot of unhealthy hangups instilled within them when they go through puberty, not just in the church but in general, and this is a source of a lot of our problems later on in life.

I'm not a psychologist or anything, but I have read a bit about this topic since it is important to me, but if anyone with more knowledge wants to chime in, that would be appreciated.

Again, from my friend's perspective from her thousands in therapy (i'm her closest friend so she vented to me a lot, a role i was happy to help her with since it did seem to help), it wasn't that her husband (and the other men in her group) were addicted to sex or porn but instead were addicted to the dopamine spikes that looking at porn or having affairs stimulated the brain with.  

So, in that way, it is a chemical addiction and you begin to crave it just like illicit drugs, it's just a chemical that the brain produces itself.

[morgan.deane]

8 minutes ago, mapman said:

I think it is worth pointing out that the majority of psychologists would say that labeling compulsive sexual behavior as an "addiction" is misleading, if not straight up harmful. I don't think that there is a consensus on a lot of these issues among the scientific community, but a lot of the studies that groups like "Fight the New Drug" use is far from being generally accepted fact. The major difference between actual addictions and other compulsive behavior is that addictions are caused by chemicals ingested into the body, while other compulsive behaviors like procrastination, eating disorders, sexual compulsions, etc. are usually symptoms of deeper emotional problems. They are similar in that they both feed into a cycle of shame and pleasure-seeking, but they require different treatment. A person with unhealthy compulsions doesn't need to just go cold turkey, they would instead need help with the underlying emotional problem. Also, unlike addictions, the compulsive behaviors aren't themselves addictive. Lots of people eat without having eating disorders or look at porn occasionally without it becoming compulsive, for example.

The rhetoric comparing porn to drugs I think is harmful. It makes people fearful of porn and want to hide their use of it and is way over the top. There are a lot of things that we think are bad that we don't compare to drug addictions. If you hear over and over again how porn is like a drug and everyone who looks at it is assumed to be an addict, if you start to look at porn occasionally, you are going to start to act in a compulsive way because you are going to want to hide it and don't think you will be able to stop yourself. This is especially true if you are brought up in a household where it is drilled into you that sexuality is bad until you've been married and you feel bad about your sexual curiosity and urges and don't know any healthy outlets for those. I don't know all the answers, but I think that Elder Oaks' article on how porn use isn't always an addiction is a good first step to trying to fix this mess we've got ourselves into trying to deal with porn. I think a lot of kids get a lot of unhealthy hangups instilled within them when they go through puberty, not just in the church but in general, and this is a source of a lot of our problems later on in life.

I'm not a psychologist or anything, but I have read a bit about this topic since it is important to me, but if anyone with more knowledge wants to chime in, that would be appreciated.

A thousand times yes. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I agree with you. I think too many LDS women think porn is like the devil. I think some porn to them is blown up. And I lay blame on the church and places like this....http://www.lifechangingservices.org/sonsofhelaman/resources/ .

If the church wouldn't make such a big deal out of it, I highly believe it wouldn't turn into a problem like it has. There is an epidemic of LDS men and probably a few women with these addictions. I wonder if they ever needed to be turned into addictions in the first place. I may need Blue Dreams to chime in, if she'd like. To either agree somewhat or disagree.

That seems to be the fallback position...it's the Church's fault. We blow it off so cavalierly at our own peril.

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/2016/05/04/children-and-young-peoples-exposure-pornography

 

[mapman]

5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. Of course it would be best to fix the problem before making commitments that will eventually make one's private problem a horrible problem for a lot of people. We're not talking about occasional exposure to erotica, but to actively seeking it out at a level that becomes uncontrollable and destructive. It goes way beyond "growing up." What does one do to protect oneself from lying and hiding an addiction that began long before the marriage? We would not be ok with our child marrying an alcoholic or crack addict. 

I agree that it is a bad idea for someone to marry a person that is an addict or has serious mental/emotional issues. If this guy hadn't been selfish and hid his problems instead of trying to fix them, it maybe would have turned out differently for him. Honesty really is the best policy.

[Bernard Gui]

29 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

When I got married I said For Better or For Worse and in sickness and in health. There's going to be many bumps in the relationship. You have to work through these or you'll never have an eternal relationship. I haven't been married in the temple yet so our marriage is temporal. After being married for 42 years I now feel ready to be sealed for all eternity.

Yes, but there are times when the bond must be broken.

[MorningStar]

I don't think it helps to ask a guy if he has a porn problem.  If they lie to their bishop, their parents, their stake president, go on a mission (and through the temple) while addicted to porn, then they're just going to keep lying to the woman they love so they can get married, thinking that their addiction will be over when they finally get to have actual sex.  Only to be shocked to learn that they are still addicted to porn.

That's the sad truth.  The young women should learn the signs of pornography addiction and avoid dating anyone who acts like x, y, and z to avoid being put through that Hell. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, mapman said:

I agree that it is a bad idea for someone to marry a person that is an addict or has serious mental/emotional issues. If this guy hadn't been selfish and hid his problems instead of trying to fix them, it maybe would have turned out differently for him. Honesty really is the best policy.

How can someone reasonably be protected from this happening?

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?"

A true addict will be a shame based individual with codependent tendencies and will exhibit these signs in other aspects of their life.  Most shame based individuals do not necessarily consciously recognize these traits in themselves or in others, but subconsciously are attracted to other people who are like them - they feel safest around these people.  This is why (generally speaking) the spouses of addicts tend to be codependent individuals themselves.  They are like magnets to each other.  The best way to avoid marrying an addict is to be an emotionally healthy and stable individual yourself, with healthy boundaries and self-esteem.  Addicts tend to run away from people like that, or they try to emotionally drag their partner down to their level.  Date long enough to recognize those signs, and run at the first sign of shaming.  That would be my advise. 

Read Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw for better understanding.

Porn is only the symptom of much deeper and pervasive problem.  We shouldn't be worried about the porn destroying a marriage as much as we should be worried about underlying core issues of addiction destroying a marriage.  These core issues will always manifest themselves in other ways.  

Edited December 29, 2016 by pogi

[Bernard Gui]

Just now, MorningStar said:

I don't think it helps to ask a guy if he has a porn problem.  If they lie to their bishop, their parents, their stake president, go on a mission (and through the temple) while addicted to porn, then they're just going to keep lying to the woman they love so they can get married, thinking that their addiction will be over when they finally get to have actual sex.  Only to be shocked to learn that they are still addicted to porn.

That's the sad truth.  The young women should learn the signs of pornography addiction and avoid dating anyone who acts like x, y, and z to avoid being put through that Hell. 

And those signs (which parents, siblings, church leaders, employers, and others missed for decades) would be...........? Why can't she ask if there is a problem?

[rodheadlee]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, but there are times when the bond must be broken.

Why?

[Bernard Gui]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

A true addict will be a shame based individual with codependent tendencies and will exhibit these signs in other aspects of their life.  Most shame based individuals do not necessarily consciously recognize these traits in themselves or in others, but subconsciously are attracted to other people who are like them - they feel safest around these people.  This is why (generally speaking) the spouses of addicts tend to be codependent individuals themselves.  They are like magnets to each other.  The best way to avoid marrying an addict is to be an emotionally healthy and stable individual yourself, with healthy boundaries and self-esteem.  Addicts tend to run away from people like that, or they try to emotionally drag their partner down to their level.  Date long enough to recognize those signs, and run at the first sign of shaming.  That would be my advise. 

Read Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw for better understanding.

Well, these are interesting words and advice, but they do not always apply. Most of the  marriages I have witnessed destroyed by secret porn addictions have often involved highly successful and respected men and totally unsuspecting women. That is not to say everything was perfect before the doo doo hit the fan. I have dealt with issues of codependency for nine years in LDS Family Services Addiction Recovery program. I stopped blaming the victim a long time ago.

[mapman]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Again, from my friend's perspective from her thousands in therapy (i'm her closest friend so she vented to me a lot, a role i was happy to help her with since it did seem to help), it wasn't that her husband (and the other men in her group) were addicted to sex or porn but instead were addicted to the dopamine spikes that looking at porn or having affairs stimulated the brain with.  

So, in that way, it is a chemical addiction and you begin to crave it just like illicit drugs, it's just a chemical that the brain produces itself.

My knowledge of psychology is pretty limited, so I hesitate to reply to this. My understanding is that a lot of different things can become compulsive behavior that would exhibit the same cycle of pleasure-seeking and self-hate that would register as dopamine spikes in the brain. Some chemicals get you into that cycle (addictions), and if you have emotional problems other behaviors can get you into the same cycle as well. I don't think that porn is inherently addictive to everyone, but that some people are susceptible to it if they have feelings of self-hate about their sexuality. Other people that have feelings of self-hate due to their body image might develop eating disorders, for another example, even though food isn't inherently addictive.

In any case, I hope I'm not coming off sounding like I'm defending porn. I think it is bad regardless of whether it is addictive or not because it demeans sexual acts into something that can be consumed like a product instead of something sacred and intimate.

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Why?

When sanity and/or life itself become the issue.

[mapman]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

How can someone reasonably be protected from this happening?

I wish I had a good answer for this. Unfortunately it seems like people can get really good at hiding their true selves from people if the problem isn't completely debilitating them. I think we can do more to make it less likely for people to develop these problems and feel the need to hide them, but it really depends on people actually wanting to get help.