Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

"Whether it takes over one's life is a choice."

Depends on what you mean by a choice.  Willpower is not always sufficient to overcome physical or emotional compulsions.  One may be emotionally unable to control one's impulses due to emotional damage as a child, for example.  Addiction to porn may, for example, be a result of unintentional early exposure before one's sexual expression and control has matured beyond sufficiently.

This is true. With all addictions, however, the power to choose is lost. That's what makes a weakness an addiction. The addict is powerless. It would be sad enough if that were the end of it, but unfortunately everyone who has a relationship with the addict will be affected to varying degrees. No one escapes unscathed. This is the fear expressed by the young woman in the OP. Given the ubiquitous availability of pornography and the powerfully seductive influence it can have, what can we do to  protect ourselves and our loved ones? In the pioneer days, they circled the wagons in the face of danger. How do we circle the wagons today?

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

If I cannot trust you with my "goods", I don't want to be married to you.  It is that simple.

I fully disclosed my porn use with my wife before we were married.  It was a risky move and I didn't know how she would react, but if I was going to marry this woman, and live the rest of my life with this person, I wanted to know that our relationship was based in trust and transparency.  I didn't want either of us to wear any masks, which prohibit true intimacy.  Rejection hurts, but being genuine is the only way that you will find true friends, healthy relationships, and honest intimacy.  In fortune cookie style - It is better to be rejected for who you are, than accepted for who you are not.

I am fully convinced that my decision to reveal my porn use before marriage is the only reason that I am still married today. 

Such openness is admirable and it has proved to be of benefit for you. While it is none of my business, I hope pornography use is a thing of the past.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Indeed, also porn is not a victimless crime, nor adultery. I am living proof of that, my bio-father let things get so bad that he ended up becoming a bigamist, and my mother and her three children (I the youngest) ended up homeless for a time. This is why my last name is "Lee" and not "Nation". By the Grace of God, the most decent man I have ever know, married my mother and he adopted the three of us (myself and my two siblings) from a life of despair and shame. There is nothing to be gained with one or more keeping secret aspects of their lives apart from a spouse...and ever more so, if to hide (as you said) such and addition. Becoming "one" as we are taught via scripture, in marriage means "one in heart, one in spirit, one in mind". Only then can such heartaches be avoided, and marriages remain in tact, and the blessings of the Gospel be fully realized. 

You have been blessed beyond measure and speak wisdom gained from experience. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Teancum said:

As I noted I do not know the extent of the situation.  Certainly I wholeheartedly agree the proliferation and accessibility of pornography is a big problem.   However, the reason I posted a few links from a LDS person, albeit one who tends to the more liberal side, who is a therapist and also qualified to council on sexual issues.  Both the blog posts I linked to discuss the fact that the issues of sexual and porn addictions are not all that cut and dry.   And she sites other experts on the issue.   But your comments to me seemed to ignore that.  

Even though I am neither a trained therapist nor a counsellor, I am very much aware of that train of thinking. However, meeting weekly for 9 years with many dozens of victims of addiction (including sexual and pornography addictions) and witnessing the devastation those addictions have visited on them has made me more than a bit skeptical about some "expert" opinions. Whatever those may be, the bottom line for me is real people are experiencing real hurt and debating this or that study is not helpful.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

I do want to make it clear I don't blame the church when someone becomes consumed with porn use. But I do think there are better approaches to the issue and shaming according to the experts will only aggravate the behavior for those who struggle.

Shaming is not the approach we have taken in the LDS Addiction Recovery Program nor is it what we teach Priesthood leaders in training sessions. If you are not familiar with the program, I strongly recommend you become so.

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/?lang=eng

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

, I think the point is that there wasnt enough information in the OP to determine a bad habit, much less addiction. 

That's why one reads the whole discussion. When I start a discussion I try to reply to all responses made to my comments. The OP made it clear this was an addiction that was kept secret, started in the early years, has not been able to be overcome, and has resulted in the destruction of a marriage and family. Don't know what more needs to be said.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think it's better to say so up front. You can't face issues in a marriage together without being honest with your spouse. And if you can't be honest with your spouse, then you probably shouldn't be getting married

What would you say to the young sister who wants some assurance that she isn't marrying into a future catastrophe?

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

This is true. With all addictions, however, the power to choose is lost. That's what makes a weakness an addiction. The addict is powerless. It would be sad enough if that were the end of it, but unfortunately everyone who has a relationship with the addict will be affected to varying degrees. No one escapes unscathed. This is the fear expressed by the young woman in the OP. Given the ubiquitous availability of pornography and the powerfully seductive influence it can have, what can we do to  protect ourselves and our loved ones? In the pioneer days, they circled the wagons in the face of danger. How do we circle the wagons today?

This is why it is important to separate addictions from other behaviours, even compulsions (my opinion...addictions are compulsions, but not all compulsions are addictions and thus should not be treated as or labeled addictions; in fact,treating them as addictions maybe harmful, rather than helpful).  

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I can't help but feel shocked that in actually seeing people blame the church when a man lets his addiction to pornography destroy his marriage or blame his wife for being "too sensitive". Doesn't the man have any blame at all in this?

That is the position taken by many including Church members....that if the Church didn't harp on it so much it wouldn't be such a big deal. There certainly are a lot of folks who don't think it is a problem, but I imagine there might be at least a few non-Mormon folks out there who would be put out to discover their spouse has an addictive relationship with pornography.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, mnn727 said:

I think you must debate what "a problem with pornography" actually means before you can discuss it: is it seeing people in risque' clothes? Is it seeing people naked? Is it seeing people involved in a sexual act?

And what kind of reaction does it cause: interested viewing?  actively searching it out? masturbation?

Until you define those 2 things, you're never going to get an answer worth anything.

Yes to all the above definitions. As with all addictive behavior, porn addiction starts with small even innocent events. With repeated exposure the addict becomes desensitized and requires more intense stimulation to satisfy the needs met by the addiction. When it grows out of control, dominates thoughts and actions, and replaces normal human interactions or makes genuine relationships impossible, then it is no longer just a "problem." That is what I am talking about. 

[Yirgacheffe]

18 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

I'd ask for a definition of pornography. I wouldn't want to be admitting to doing something that I didn't do. 

Personally I get more upset with modern films portrayals of violence against women than any nakedness that may be shown. My wife agrees.

I just don't like violence no matter who it against.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, cinepro said:

This article (originally published on Meridian but since deleted) would appear to be relevant:

Discussing Pornography With Your Future Son-in-Law

Discussion Points:

¨     Tell me about your experience with pornography over your lifetime.

¨     Is there a history of pornography use in your immediate or extended family?

¨     How do you define pornography?

¨     How have you healed from the impact of pornography on your life?

¨     Who helped you overcome your problems with pornography?

¨     How do you currently protect yourself from pornography?

¨     Have you ever wanted to stop viewing pornography, but couldn’t?

Not sure why or in what spirit you are presenting this. The question of the OP was what can a person contemplating marriage do to protect him/herself from secret addictions, in this case, pornography, not what some fathers should ask prospective sons-in-law.

However, I have met parents who wish they had had this kind of discussion, perhaps not in such excruciating detail, but at least in some way that would have uncovered a problem and saved their child from some severe trauma, as some describe it, worse than the death of a loved one. One very close friend who lost his daughter and two grandchildren to a murderous porn-addicted psychopath who had posed as a wonderful returned missionary wishes it could all have been prevented.

If I suspected substance abuse or other dysfunctional behavior I would think a bit of an inquisition might be in order. Why not porn addiction, too?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

21 minutes ago, Yirgacheffe said:

I just don't like violence no matter who it against.

Indeed.

[bcuzbcuz]

 

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes to all the above definitions. As with all addictive behavior, porn addiction starts with small even innocent events. With repeated exposure the addict becomes desensitized and requires more intense stimulation to satisfy the needs met by the addiction. When it grows out of control, dominates thoughts and actions, and replaces normal human interactions or makes genuine relationships impossible, then it is no longer just a "problem." That is what I am talking about. 

You said yes to the definition that risqué clothing and nakedness constitute pornography. And then portray those as introduction portals to porn addiction. Sorry, but I disagree and I think you would be hard pressed to find data to back up such statements. Furthermore, I do not think there is a causal link between those things and porn addiction.

I prefer a much more outlined definition of what constitutes pornography so that such confusion was not involved. Detailed definitions of pornography would not be appropriate here on this site but I would not shy away from defining it, given the appropriate forum. 

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 

You said yes to the definition that risqué clothing and nakedness constitute pornography. And then portray those as introduction portals to porn addiction. Sorry, but I disagree and I think you would be hard pressed to find data to back up such statements. Furthermore, I do not think there is a causal link between those things and porn addiction.

I prefer a much more outlined definition of what constitutes pornography so that such confusion was not involved. Detailed definitions of pornography would not be appropriate here on this site but I would not shy away from defining it, given the appropriate forum.

Feel free to disagree and prefer what you want. That's why we are here. But this thread should not be derailed by a debate over the causes of porn addiction. They are as varied and complex as the individuals who suffer from it.

 For the purpose of this thread the definition, portal, trigger,  or cause or whatever it is that is out of control is irrelevant. What matters is that it is serious enough to ruin many people's lives and it is becoming more and more common.

How would you advise a young person who is concerned that a future spouse may harbor a secret addiction that could prove catastrophic to their marriage?

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You have been blessed beyond measure and speak wisdom gained from experience. 

It was a tough early life that left me with a long of trust issue, anger and a lack of self confidence. But God is able to give "beauty from ashes". 

[pogi]

16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That may have been the best thing in your circumstances. I remain unconvinced that a prenuptial, tell-all confession is best in all instances.If I plan to marry someone and she has fully repented, if need be, of past wrongs, I have no interest in making her dredge them up for me.

I am not advocating a "tell-all confession", but when it comes to addiction, darn tootin' I want to know if the person I am marrying has struggled with addiction in the past - repented of or not.  That is not something that you want to have come up after your spouse has made her vows to you - talk about loss of trust and disillusionment!  "You couldn't trust me enough to share that with me? If it is no longer a problem, why didn't you feel safe to tell me?  Did you really not think that was an important bit of information!!?""   I can see how that discussion would go.  

I have a hard time believing that any child today can mature to the age of marriage without seeing some porn, so no, I don't believe that everybody needs to reveal all of their past mistakes, but if it is serious enough to where it has caused relapse or serious difficulty in overcoming, or if it is in current use, or if the person barely has enough sobriety to get a temple recommend before marriage...it NEEDS to be brought up.

 Addiction is not your typical past transgression, it tends to linger with potential for relapse.  Any addict in a recovery program, no mater how many years of sobriety they have will always state, "hello my name is ___, I am an addict."  I don't care if the person has repented, they are still an addict and their future spouse needs to know that. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by pogi

[Avatar4321]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What would you say to the young sister who wants some assurance that she isn't marrying into a future catastrophe?

get revelation. And don't get married until you get it.

[cinepro]

8 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

get revelation. And don't get married until you get it.

After seeing the success/failure ratio on marriages preceded by "revelation", I'm almost ready to argue that flipping a coin is just as good.  Once the emotions and hormones kick in, it takes more than a "still small voice" to tell someone that they're making a lifelong mistake. 

Heck, I've even seen people ignore the much more clear and audible (and in these cases, reliable) counsel from friends and family telling them not to marry someone, and they go ahead and plunge into a disastrous relationship because they thought they got revelation. 

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How would you advise a young person who is concerned that a future spouse may harbor a secret addiction that could prove catastrophic to their marriage?

I would first try to help them understand that it might not be an "addiction" and it might not necessarily need to be "catastrophic" to their marriage.

Early in my marriage, I spent too much time playing video games.  I played video games before I got married, and my wife knew this.  But the stresses of school and work got to me and I'd stay up late playing "Starcraft" when I should have gotten some sleep.  Was I "addicted"?  In some ways yes, in other ways no.  Was it "catastrophic to my marriage"?  No.  It annoyed my wife to be sure, but I did still spend time with her and I never thought of leaving her over the issue, nor she me.

I don't remember exactly what it was, but one day I just realized I was spending too much time on the computer and I stopped.  I think I just got burned out and a little bored.  I've played games since then (including Starcraft 2), usually with my son as he grew older.  But I never spent as much time as I had before. 

So if you went back in time to 1995 and my then-fiancee expressed concern about the possibility of ending up with someone who was "addicted" to video games and that it could prove "catastrophic" to her marriage, what would you say?

Now obviously all "addictions" are different in their nature and consequences.  Heroin addiction isn't exactly like gambling addiction.  Sex addiction and serial infidelity isn't exactly like Pokemon Go addiction (although with Tinder, maybe it is?)  And video game addiction isn't exactly like pornography addiction.  But it isn't totally different either.

And I think some of the "short cuts" and verbiage the Church uses to try and explain pornography addiction doesn't do a good job of explaining the reality of the situation.  Just as we are able to easily understand that Mormons shouldn't drink alcohol, but not all Mormons and non-Mormons who drink alcohol are addicted to alcohol, maybe one day there we will be able to admit that while Mormons shouldn't look at pornography, not all Mormons and non-Mormons who look at pornography are addicted to pornography.

[waveslider]

35 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

get revelation. And don't get married until you get it.

That still won't guarantee that your marriage won't fail.

[bcuzbcuz]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Feel free to disagree and prefer what you want. That's why we are here. But this thread should not be derailed by a debate over the causes of porn addiction. They are as varied and complex as the individuals who suffer from it.

 For the purpose of this thread the definition, portal, trigger,  or cause or whatever it is that is out of control is irrelevant. What matters is that it is serious enough to ruin many people's lives and it is becoming more and more common.

How would you advise a young person who is concerned that a future spouse may harbor a secret addiction that could prove catastrophic to their marriage?

 I think the definition is important, so that should the question arise, that both are speaking and defining the same thing. You mentioned nakedness. Where I live, in Scandinavia, nakedness while sitting in a bastu (sauna) is considered normal. As a man of more than 70 years, sitting in the same small confined space, with other equally potbellied naked men, despite the room being between 80 and 90 degrees celsius (that's extremely warm by anyone's standards), is not considered pornographic. 

On the other hand, knowing if a prospective partner spends hours daily, reading, watching, searching for sexually explicit materials or engaging in sexual conversation with actual or imagined persons should be a concern. As you've stated, many have found such data on the internet, but merely coming into contact with such material does not constitute an addiction. But in my opinion, a person consumed with anything (from computer pixels to financial greed) that occupies their main attention, should be carefully considered before entering into a comiitted relationship with.

As you may have surmised, I consider greed of equal weight, to lust; gluttony, comes in a close third.

[SteveO]

Video games was mentioned briefly early on in this thread, and how it is usually linked with pornography.

You want to know the defense against porn?  Teach your kids to be "anxiously engaged in a good cause".  There's never any time to waste your strength with pornography when you're exhausted and satisfied by accomplishment at the end of the day.  

Happy people work at it--persistently.  And barring mental illness, that concept is lost on too many 20 somethings today.  

Playing video games 15 hours a day in no way brings any sense of satisfaction.  And lest you believe 15 hours a day is an exaggeration or a rarity--it isn't. 

I think there's a number of issues at the root of any problem with pornography, but too much time to sit around thinking about not engaging in it is probably one of the big reasons.

Edited December 30, 2016 by SteveO

[Bernard Gui]

28 minutes ago, cinepro said:

I would first try to help them understand that it might not be an "addiction" and it might not necessarily need to be "catastrophic" to their marriage.

Early in my marriage, I spent too much time playing video games.  I played video games before I got married, and my wife knew this.  But the stresses of school and work got to me and I'd stay up late playing "Starcraft" when I should have gotten some sleep.  Was I "addicted"?  In some ways yes, in other ways no.  Was it "catastrophic to my marriage"?  No.  It annoyed my wife to be sure, but I did still spend time with her and I never thought of leaving her over the issue, nor she me.

I don't remember exactly what it was, but one day I just realized I was spending too much time on the computer and I stopped.  I think I just got burned out and a little bored.  I've played games since then (including Starcraft 2), usually with my son as he grew older.  But I never spent as much time as I had before. 

So if you went back in time to 1995 and my then-fiancee expressed concern about the possibility of ending up with someone who was "addicted" to video games and that it could prove "catastrophic" to her marriage, what would you say?

Now obviously all "addictions" are different in their nature and consequences.  Heroin addiction isn't exactly like gambling addiction.  Sex addiction and serial infidelity isn't exactly like Pokemon Go addiction (although with Tinder, maybe it is?)  And video game addiction isn't exactly like pornography addiction.  But it isn't totally different either.

And I think some of the "short cuts" and verbiage the Church uses to try and explain pornography addiction doesn't do a good job of explaining the reality of the situation.  Just as we are able to easily understand that Mormons shouldn't drink alcohol, but not all Mormons and non-Mormons who drink alcohol are addicted to alcohol, maybe one day there we will be able to admit that while Mormons shouldn't look at pornography, not all Mormons and non-Mormons who look at pornography are addicted to pornography.

I have met families of video game addicts whose addict ran up thousands of dollars on their credit cards the addict stole from them to fund the addiction. It was catastrophic for them. Was that the level of your "addiction"? 

I'm having difficulty getting your point when you facetiously include Pokemon and Tinder with heroin or sexual addictions. Apparently you don't think there's much to be concerned about? Is there anything in my comments that leads you to think I am unable "to admit that while Mormons shouldn't look at pornography, not all Mormons and non-Mormons who look at pornography are addicted to pornography?" How have you come to that conclusion?

Here is what the Church is saying about addiction. What do you find objectionable?

https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/?lang=eng

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bcuzbcuz said:

 I think the definition is important, so that should the question arise, that both are speaking and defining the same thing. You mentioned nakedness. Where I live, in Scandinavia, nakedness while sitting in a bastu (sauna) is considered normal. As a man of more than 70 years, sitting in the same small confined space, with other equally potbellied naked men, despite the room being between 80 and 90 degrees celsius (that's extremely warm by anyone's standards), is not considered pornographic. 

On the other hand, knowing if a prospective partner spends hours daily, reading, watching, searching for sexually explicit materials or engaging in sexual conversation with actual or imagined persons should be a concern. As you've stated, many have found such data on the internet, but merely coming into contact with such material does not constitute an addiction. But in my opinion, a person consumed with anything (from computer pixels to financial greed) that occupies their main attention, should be carefully considered before entering into a comiitted relationship with.

As you may have surmised, I consider greed of equal weight, to lust; gluttony, comes in a close third.

I appreciate your comments. Regarding the sweaty old guys sitting naked in a sauna, none of the people I have met who have been harmed by pornography have cited that as an example, but who knows? Nothing surprises me now.

I don't recall taking the position that merely coming in contact with pornograhic material constitutes addiction.  Addiction, however is always precede by contact.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui