Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[Bernard Gui]

55 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It actually is the dopamine spikes that create the cycle of pleasure-seeking.  Even chemicals like heroin work because they stimulate dopamine production.  If i'm understanding correctly, my knowledge is very limited as well.  

There is ongoing debate about the effects of porn on brain chemistry and addictivity, but from what I can tell, the more that is discovered, the more damaging it is proving to be, especially when the exposure comes at younger and younger ages. From my anecdotal experience as a teacher and an LDS Family Services Addiction Recovery missionary, I have witnessed its destructive capability. Nothing good comes from it.

https://aifs.gov.au/cfca/2016/05/04/children-and-young-peoples-exposure-pornography

 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why were they angry? Those are real and reasonable protections for the whole family. As Sister Gui and I present our addiction recovery programs to various church groups, it is sad to see the faces of those who are being touched. 

When I asked their friends, each felt like that "they" needed privacy, from their husbands and wives. The interesting thing is each of these marriages were having troubles. I have just weeks earlier been in the Bishopric and knew of some of these problems. 

[Bernard Gui]

44 minutes ago, mapman said:

Haha, well I'm going to do some more reading to see if I can understand this better!

This thread is making me a little anxious about dating and marriage, honestly. Hopefully someone will be able to like me with all my quirks and dumb mistakes and I won't screw it up 

I hear you. This is why we have a Savior. It really works!

[Calm]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

Serious answer I wouldn't sign. She can move out do whatever she wants but I wouldn't sign the divorce papers. I'm not the only one either I have a friend who is not even a Mormon and he won't sign the divorce papers. I will hold up my end to the best of my ability. We have been through some really bad times. I'm not going to name them all off but suffice it to say they included a whole realm of sins on her part and my part. The atonement works in marriage. I love my wife more today than at any other time in our life.

 

I have no problem with that as long as people are open about their attitude towards marriage before marriage where possible (attitudes do change over time so that will not always work).  Some people might see that as a form of manipulation or abuse if they find out about that attitude only in the midst of deep problems when they are wondering about their fire choices and if one of them should be divorce.  (I know a case where it was used by an abusive LDS husband as they walked out of the final settlement meeting, as in "you are mine and always will be because you are sealed to me" so it is possible and if there is anger at the moment, spouses might go there mentally thinking the worse of their spouse, adding to the problem of miscommunication and misunderstanding that most likely got them where they are.)

And of course if it is not used as an excuse to justify poor behaviour (I don't have to change my behaviour because my spouse will always be mine no matter what), which I am confident would not be the case in your relationship, Rod.  It is likely the reverse for you, you work harder to ensure it stays intact.

[Bernard Gui]

1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

When I asked their friends, each felt like that "they" needed privacy, from their husbands and wives. The interesting thing is each of these marriages were having troubles. I have just weeks earlier been in the Bishopric and knew of some of these problems. 

I can understand the need for privacy, but if it is used as an excuse to hide addiction, it will eventually become public, and no one will be happy.

[VideoGameJunkie]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If you want to debate that, please start another thread. It's derailing this one. It's an addiction when it becomes destructive, out of control, and takes the place of normal human relationships. Enough said.

No need to get mean it's an important question. People could be over blowing porn use and affecting men's minds and actions. And I'm not allowed to make threads, notice the limited status?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

When I asked their friends, each felt like that "they" needed privacy, from their husbands and wives. The interesting thing is each of these marriages were having troubles. I have just weeks earlier been in the Bishopric and knew of some of these problems. 

Privacy and boundaries are needed for many in order to prevent the feeling of losing one's sense of individualness, that one has worth outside of the relationship, but there are ways to achieve this through respect rather than just not giving access to one's self.

[Bernard Gui]

46 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

She can ask, but she's not going to get the truth if he's been lying to everyone else.  I know a guy who told his fiancé he had never looked at porn or masturbated his entire life, which of course was a lie.  He did so pretty much every day.  Parents and siblings probably saw the signs, but didn't get the truth.  I've told my boys that if they become addicted to pornography, they are obligated to tell any potential wife and they will have to figure out when that time is.  After a few dates?  When you start talking about marriage? 

For starters, I would teach my girls to avoid or stop dating guys who can't seem to drag themselves out of bed for church consistently, seem to stay up all hours of the night, are secretive about their phone/computer, seem to go through cycles of negativity, irritability, or anger for no apparent reason, and to pay attention to the way they talk about women and sex (if they talk about it). And I would tell them about the correlation between video game addiction and porn addiction, which often go together.  My sister almost married a real jerk and let it fly out of his mouth that he wanted a (fill in vulgar term) on his wedding night.  Big red flag for a return missionary who's supposedly chaste.  So glad she didn't marry him!

Good advice. Are you a Tiger Mom?

 

[waveslider]

5 hours ago, Five Solas said:

I can stop whenever I need to

You sound like the guy who was addicted to brake fluid.

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

No need to get mean it's an important question. People could be over blowing porn use and affecting men's minds and actions. And I'm not allowed to make threads, notice the limited status?

Not intending to be mean, but I asked early on that this not be turned into a debate about a definition of pornography. Sorry if it came out as angry. I am asking for a discussion of how to deal with the very real destructive consequences of porn addiction and how to avoid disaster, not to argue about what porn is. 

[Bernard Gui]

51 minutes ago, mapman said:

From what Bernard Gui has described it sounds like in that particular case the person didn't end up putting much value into the marriage, but I don't think that's always the case. I think someone could consume porn and still be committed to their marriage. Not saying this wouldn't be problematic for most marriages, but looking at porn doesn't necessarily mean they are going to commit adultery. Most people that would be willing to commit adultery probably wouldn't have qualms about porn either, but I don't think the one leads directly to the other. I think going through counseling in some cases would be better than breaking off the relationship if both parties are willing to work on fixing things.

Also worth pointing out that women look at porn too, which I think is something people tend to overlook.

One thing spouses of porn addicts learn is that it often has nothing to do with falling out of love or rejection. The addict probably is just as loving and committed, but has a horrible behavior that is uncontrollable, destructive, disabling, dehumanizing, disappointing, puzzling, unexplainable, and very difficult to kick. And it can lead to acting out either by making unreasonable or inappropriate demands or adultery. None of these things is pleasant.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What would be an acceptable answer, assuming arguendo that the sister is right in her assumption about all or virtually all young men having viewed it?

Furthermore, how detailed a confession about past wrongdoing can prospective marriage partners appropriately expect from each other?  In this instance, would it be enough to say that the last occasion is long enough ago that it is not an issue today? As a quid pro quo, might the young man then appropriately ask the young women about her past dating behavior or whether she enjoys reading trashy romance novels?

In short, might such tell-all disclosure in itself lead to problems with the relationship down the road, assuming the couple decide to go ahead with the marriage?

Having a successful marriage is a dicey enough prospect as it is without each partner having the goods on the other, so to speak. 

or how much credit card debt she has, or he has. I used to be a shopaholic. You feel bad about yourself  (for whatever reason) and so to feel good you buy something and then you feel bad for buying something so you buy something else to make you feel good and on and on until I racked up 5K in debt BUT I paid it ALL back and other debts and I got out of that cycle, it;s hard but insert porn with feeling the need to buy something or food or gambling or clubbing, I think the effects can be the same-gambling you could lose everything and the hiding of money nad lying fo where the money is and secrecy.

[Bernard Gui]

53 minutes ago, mapman said:

From what Bernard Gui has described it sounds like in that particular case the person didn't end up putting much value into the marriage, but I don't think that's always the case. I think someone could consume porn and still be committed to their marriage. Not saying this wouldn't be problematic for most marriages, but looking at porn doesn't necessarily mean they are going to commit adultery. Most people that would be willing to commit adultery probably wouldn't have qualms about porn either, but I don't think the one leads directly to the other. I think going through counseling in some cases would be better than breaking off the relationship if both parties are willing to work on fixing things.

Also worth pointing out that women look at porn too, which I think is something people tend to overlook.

As I noted above, a person (man or woman but moreso with men) addicted to pornography can be a devoted loving spouse and parent.  It is adultery if we are to believe the Savior. When it is finally discovered, the effects on the spouse are just as devastating. Counseling can help but it is difficult to overcome. The triggers are everywhere.

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

or how much credit card debt she has, or he has. I used to be a shopaholic. You feel bad about yourself  (for whatever reason) and so to feel good you buy something and then you feel bad for buying something so you buy something else to make you feel good and on and on until I racked up 5K in debt BUT I paid it ALL back and other debts and I got out of that cycle, it;s hard but insert porn with feeling the need to buy something or food or gambling or clubbing, I think the effects can be the same-gambling you could lose everything and the hiding of money nad lying fo where the money is and secrecy.

Well, yes. There are many behaviors that destroy relationships and marriages. Secret spending and debt, gambling.....nothing good will come of these. They can also be addictive behaviors that destroy everyone in their path. They will always eventually become known, just as porn addiction is eventually discovered. I suppose it is in our nature to be trusting of those we love. Trust is the first thing to go when these things come to light, and it is the last thing that is restored, if it ever is. The question is how to defend against these secret personal time bombs.

[Duncan]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

As I noted above, a person (man or woman but moreso with men) addicted to pornography can be a devoted loving spouse and parent.  It is adultery if we are to believe the Savior. When it is finally discovered, the effects on the spouse are just as devastating. Counseling can help but it is difficult to overcome. The triggers are everywhere.

sex can be an addiction too,the same physiological factors are there too as there is in porn addiction

[Duncan]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

Well, yes. There are many behaviors that destroy relationships and marriages. Secret spending and debt, gambling.....nothing good will come of these. They can also be addictive behaviors that destroy everyone in their path. They will always eventually become known, just as porn addiction is eventually discovered. I suppose it is in our nature to be trusting of those we love. Trust is the first thing to go when these things come to light, and it is the last thing that is restored, if it ever is. The question is how to defend against these secret personal time bombs.

I had a teacher years ago say you don't really meet your spouse until you marry them then it'll all come out one way or another

[Bernard Gui]

A related but sad tangent is the failure of some (emphatically not all!) bishops and stake presidents not to believe the spouse or take the situation seriously, especially if the offender is a respected Church member who has had responsible positions. We can do better.

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

sex can be an addiction too,the same physiological factors are there too as there is in porn addiction

True. 

[waveslider]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Why?

What if the addict turns out like this guy who cites his addiction to porn as being the root cause of his violent murders: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEcKMfOhSow I would say that if there is threat of violence that would be a good enough reason.

[VideoGameJunkie]

34 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Not intending to be mean, but I asked early on that this not be turned into a debate about a definition of pornography. Sorry if it came out as angry. I am asking for a discussion of how to deal with the very real destructive consequences of porn addiction and how to avoid disaster, not to argue about what porn is. 

If porn is truly a drug then make it illegal. And porn addicts should go to the church 12 step program. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

As I noted above, a person (man or woman but moreso with men) addicted to pornography can be a devoted loving spouse and parent.  It is adultery if we are to believe the Savior. When it is finally discovered, the effects on the spouse are just as devastating. Counseling can help but it is difficult to overcome. The triggers are everywhere.

Of course, not all forms of adultery will be equal nor will spouses react to them the same.  A one time event is different than a decades long sexual relationship, which is different from a decades long emotional dependency.  Multiple partners vs, one partner.  Heterosexual vs. homosexual.  My sister believes her husband's homosexual affairs hit her harder than if he had heterosexual ones (I suspect she would have left him no matter as she had tried to deal with drug and booze bingeing and that was close to too much already), she interpreted it as a rejection of her own womanhood, even while intellectually knowing it was not being able to experience any woman that way...it didn't help that he more or less originally framed it that way as well, if she had been more of the goddess he imagined her to be, more loving and accepting of who he was, he could have controlled his impulses, etc.etc.  

Anyway, labeling use of pornography as adultery may be helpful if it helps one spouse understand why it is so serious for another spouse, but also might make spouses feel there is no help for a marriage so they give up tying to control their impulses (a similar example...a friend decided she might as well have an affair because her husband once told her if she even just kissed a man, the marriage would be over and she was in despair thinking because of a moment's weakness when she was feeling unloved by him, she had let another man express 'love' to her; thankfully both were wrong and mistakes were forgiven on both sides and better communication stengthened their relationship eventually).

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

Haha, well I'm going to do some more reading to see if I can understand this better!

This thread is making me a little anxious about dating and marriage, honestly. Hopefully someone will be able to like me with all my quirks and dumb mistakes and I won't screw it up 

We all have weird quirks and do dumb things.  Makes life interesting. 😁

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I had a teacher years ago say you don't really meet your spouse until you marry them then it'll all come out one way or another

It is actually many years later, if then.  Still discovering things about my husband and myself after 30+ years.  My parents' relationship changed drastically in a few ways as they got older and weaknesses stopped being countered by mental awareness and reasoning of what was appropriate in a relationship (not judging, not taking stuff personally that wasn't meant personally, not figuring out that you needed to help the other with their changed needs as you required them to help you with changes instead of thinking it was business as usual and you were behaving the same way you always did...no, working in the garage for eight hours without talking to your wife is not the same as going to work for eight hours and not talking to your wife and just because he was home all day didn't mean he was there to work on your projects or talk to you about your latest interest for hours at a time...sigh, I so hope I remember this when we get that age).

[Jeanne]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A related but sad tangent is the failure of some (emphatically not all!) bishops and stake presidents not to believe the spouse or take the situation seriously, especially if the offender is a respected Church member who has had responsible positions. We can do better.

I have a friend that went through this with her own bishop.  She left his office feeling like it was all her fault..so, yes I very much agree with you.  We can do better.  Of course this means understanding the affects of betrayal and also a realization that it is an addiction.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Most of the  marriages I have witnessed destroyed by secret porn addictions have often involved highly successful and respected men and totally unsuspecting women. 

Quote

“Toxically shamed people tend to become more and more stagnant as life goes on. They live in a guarded, secretive and defensive way. They try to be more than human (perfect and controlling) or less than human (losing interest in life or stagnated in some addictive behavior).” 
― John Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that Binds You

"Highly successful and respected" people can be just as shame based and addiction prone as anyone else - they will not be attracted to truly healthy people.  It is like mixing oil and water.

Be the water, and the oil will naturally separate itself.  This is very simplistic obviously, but I am thoroughly convinced that the principle is true.  "Being the water" is more than keeping up appearances.  It requires more than a superficial self inventory, introspection and study to even detect any signs of toxic shame before we can even begin to address such issues.

Light attracts light and darkness attracts darkness.  It is an eternal principle.

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I stopped blaming the victim a long time ago.

Blaming doesn't get anybody anywhere, I don't recommend it.  Both the addict and the spouse are victims of the disease to some degree or another, that does not absolve them of their accountability to take steps towards healing.