Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[MorningStar]

On ‎12‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 1:12 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Good advice. Are you a Tiger Mom?

 

Not in general, but when it comes to this sort of thing, I am.  I've seen pornography destroy too many marriages.  There's always risk in marriage though.  A spouse could still become addicted later.  It all boils down to agency.  One of my friend's divorced her husband recently because his porn addiction led to him secretly video taping the two of them, which she found, and then he didn't fess up that there were more recordings.  She found more.  He also wouldn't keep his hands to himself when requested, so she got a separate bedroom, put a lock on it, they went to therapy, etc., but he still just couldn't understand what the big deal was.  It has truly warped his brain.  He can't understand how violated she feels. 

[Bernard Gui]

It does boil down to agency. At some point agency is surrendered. When the addiction is firmly in place, however, agency is no longer a factor. It is an addiction because the person is incapable of making good choices...as they say, "they are powerless over their addiction." They have to admit that before any healing can begin. Telling them to stop, shaming and blaming them, demanding they grow up, withholding affection, those things do not help. Eventually some wake up to find they have lost everything they love because they love their addiction more, but even then they cannot stop.

We have met many sisters with sad experiences like your friend's. Some of us find it easy to blow them off....until it happens to someone we love. All of a sudden it becomes an issue to take seriously.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Duncan]

Just now, MorningStar said:

Not in general, but when it comes to this sort of thing, I am.  I've seen pornography destroy too many marriages.  There's always risk in marriage though.  A spouse could still become addicted later.  It all boils down to agency.  One of my friend's divorced her husband recently because his porn addiction led to him secretly video taping the two of them, which she found, and then he didn't fess up that there were more recordings.  She found more.  He also wouldn't keep his hands to himself when requested, so she got a separate bedroom, put a lock on it, they went to therapy, etc., but he still just couldn't understand what the big deal was.  It has truly warped his brain.  He can't understand how violated she feels. 

ew ew ew ew ew ew! sorry to hear this

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

Video games was mentioned briefly early on in this thread, and how it is usually linked with pornography.

You want to know the defense against porn?  Teach your kids to be "anxiously engaged in a good cause".  There's never any time to waste your strength with pornography when you're exhausted and satisfied by accomplishment at the end of the day.  

Happy people work at it--persistently.  And barring mental illness, that concept is lost on too many 20 somethings today.  

Playing video games 15 hours a day in no way brings any sense of satisfaction.  And lest you believe 15 hours a day is an exaggeration or a rarity--it isn't. 

I think there's a number of issues at the root of any problem with pornography, but too much time to sit around thinking about not engaging in it is probably one of the big reasons.

All interesting and helpful comments. A police officer friend lost his job and his family because he was observed by a passer-by watching pornography on the computer screen in his cruiser. The discovery unraveled his life. He kept secret an addiction that finally revealed itself as it always does. He was an active, loving, energetic, dynamic person, a church leader, and respected officer. His plight changed the way I thought about porn addiction.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[SteveO]

52 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Not in general, but when it comes to this sort of thing, I am.  I've seen pornography destroy too many marriages.  There's always risk in marriage though.  A spouse could still become addicted later.  It all boils down to agency.  One of my friend's divorced her husband recently because his porn addiction led to him secretly video taping the two of them, which she found, and then he didn't fess up that there were more recordings.  She found more.  He also wouldn't keep his hands to himself when requested, so she got a separate bedroom, put a lock on it, they went to therapy, etc., but he still just couldn't understand what the big deal was.  It has truly warped his brain.  He can't understand how violated she feels. 

I was an infantryman in the army, and those guys are more than a little rough around the edges...I have every confidence even they'd recognize the incredible level of disrespect in that relationship...geez, how unfortunate 

Edited December 30, 2016 by SteveO

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

ew ew ew ew ew ew! sorry to hear this

It's no longer an isolated incident nor an unfamiliar story. 

[strappinglad]

To directly answer the OP, I'm sure there is a service available that will look into the personal life of anyone and search out any secrets. In the old days it was a Private Eye. Today , just contact the NSA ... or a Russian hacker... Short of that type of subtrafuge, I guess that pointed questions might work. Pathological liars are very often extremely charming and manipulative so good luck with the direct approach with them.

Edited December 31, 2016 by strappinglad

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Even though I am neither a trained therapist nor a counsellor, I am very much aware of that train of thinking. However, meeting weekly for 9 years with many dozens of victims of addiction (including sexual and pornography addictions) and witnessing the devastation those addictions have visited on them has made me more than a bit skeptical about some "expert" opinions. Whatever those may be, the bottom line for me is real people are experiencing real hurt and debating this or that study is not helpful.

But the root causes of addictions or whether someone is really addicted is worth discussing.  And people can act out in destructive ways without being addicted to the destructive behavior.  And why not become educated on the issues?

Again please don't misconstrue my comments to dismiss real problems that you see and are assisting with.

[provoman]

On 12/29/2016 at 2:08 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

That may have been the best thing in your circumstances. I remain unconvinced that a prenuptial, tell-all confession is best in all instances.If I plan to marry someone and she has fully repented, if need be, of past wrongs, I have no interest in making her dredge them up for me.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, pogi said:

I am not advocating a "tell-all confession", but when it comes to addiction, darn tootin' I want to know if the person I am marrying has struggled with addiction in the past - repented of or not.  That is not something that you want to have come up after your spouse has made her vows to you - talk about loss of trust and disillusionment!  "You couldn't trust me enough to share that with me? If it is no longer a problem, why didn't you feel safe to tell me?  Did you really not think that was an important bit of information!!?""   I can see how that discussion would go.  

 

 

I agree with Scott. As for what pogi's response. Where is the atonement when a person has repented? 

[Calm]

Addiction is different though then other sins as the body has become hard wired in essence, thought patterns have been changed and while the person may have been able through nonexposure altered that reaction, it can still leave them much more susceptible than is common.  For example, those who have had one form of substance abuse generally try to avoid exposure to similar drugs...they will avoid taking narcotics unless strictly supervised.

A spouse may make it harder unintentionally if unaware of past problems.  A spouse who has had a gambling or shopping addiction probably wouldn't be helped by getting all the financial dealings (budgeting, bill paying) dumped in their lap.  A person who was anorexic or had compulsive eating disorder doesn't need a clueless spouse making clueless decisions on what kind of food to have in the home or a spouse who unknowingly interferes with their routine of eating.  

If something was a major part of a person's life with a huge influence over behaviour for that time, if there were significant things that contributed to making a person who they are even if negative originally but were able to be overcomed, not wanting to share that part of themselves with the person who is to become one with them...I find that concerning for future interactions as it might show a tendency to rationalizing not being open with one's spouse.

I don't think one needs to dredge up endless detail and wallow in it, but sharing at least some of the complicated life's journey one has taken seems rather essential to me.  It is rather important to learn how one's future spouse might deal with one's mistakes, will they accept them as the past and move on or not let go and constantly revisit them, hold grudges, etc.  Being open about past issues may give previews to reactions to future ones.

[MorningStar]

8 hours ago, SteveO said:

I was an infantryman in the army, and those guys are more than a little rough around the edges...I have every confidence even they'd recognize the incredible level of disrespect in that relationship...geez, how unfortunate 

Very.  They have 4 small children and judges don't care if a man looks at porn.  That means he gets 50% custody, at least for now, and he'll probably be another careless man who exposes his children to it.  Years ago my friend came home from a Relief Society conference early and caught her husband surfing in front of their small children.  Either you stay with them to protect the kids or you take your chances for your sanity and divorce them.  Eventually she divorced him, but quite a few years after her brother saw his truck parked at a strip club where he maxed out one of their credit cards.  This is why I get extremely annoyed when people say, "If the church just wouldn't make a big deal out of this....."  This is a big deal!!!  And it's not just LDS men pulling this kind of crap.  The church warns about this over and over again because this is what's happening to countless families.

Oh, here's another fun story - also in my ward.  After years and years of pornography addiction, a well respected man in my ward started seeing prostitutes and didn't fess up until one of them blackmailed him.  Even more amazing, someone saw him shopping at Fred Meyer with a prostitute.  REALLY?!  His daughter cried in RS that no men from her family would be able to attend her sealing and her mom started crying too.  I'm sick to death of this kind of thing. His wife has really been a saint about this and he's still having delusions that she'll come around and take him back again.  Nope.  She's so done with him.  You look at this woman and think, "Wow.  She looks like a movie star."  She actually was a movie star years ago.  She is beautiful, talented, spiritual, and still managed to end up with a scumbag.  No woman is immune.

I'll share something else too.  My oldest son started struggling after the school required the kids to use laptops at school and for homework.  There was no locking them out of it or anything.  So he feels like crap because he's been struggling for years and when my 12yo searched some inappropriate things, we had a sit down and told the boys, "This is what's going on with your brother and someone caused me to blame him for things that were searched.  I know who it is, but I want you to fess up."  The child didn't fess up, but I did eventually drag it out of him.  I gave him a reality check by saying every single search term out loud so he would hear how shocking it was and then I made him say to his brother, "I'm sorry for looking up naked prostitute.  I'm sorry for looking up sexy teacher."  Our other son blurts out ,"Why did you look that up?!"  Then I told my son, "Next time you think about Googling something, think about whether you want to say it in front of your mom." 

Then I flat out told the boys they better listen and obey what we've been telling them for years because Bro. So and So just got excommunicated for being "unfaithful" and Brother So and So was getting divorced because he not only is addicted to pornography - he didn't respect his wife when she said no.  These are men they respected or were even their leaders.  I had told my oldest before, "I know you feel like garbage and that you're alone, but there are grown men in our ward struggling with this and boys who aren't telling."  He had no idea that his own Scout leader was one of them.

I don't know how else to get through to them.  We told our boys, "You're not married yet and Satan is already trying to ruin your family.  He wants you and your family to be miserable.  He wants you to break your wives hearts and leave your children devastated."  I saw our bishop having a heart to heart with prostitute man's son. He is clearly not doing well. 

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, Teancum said:

But the root causes of addictions or whether someone is really addicted is worth discussing.  And people can act out in destructive ways without being addicted to the destructive behavior.  And why not become educated on the issues?

Again please don't misconstrue my comments to dismiss real problems that you see and are assisting with.

I think you have misunderstood...I agree all those things are important and education is critical, but for the purposes of this discussion as stated in tho OP they are a distraction. This is a controversial issue that is just now getting the attention it deserves. Please feel free to start another thread if you wish. I would be happy to participate.

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, strappinglad said:

To directly answer the OP, I'm sure there is a service available that will look into the personal life of anyone and search out any secrets. In the old days it was a Private Eye. Today , just contact the NSA ... or a Russian hacker... Short of that type of subtrafuge, I guess that pointed questions might work. Pathological liars are very often extremely charming and manipulative so good luck with the direct approach with them.

I appreciate the wry humor. The guilt and hopelessness many addicts feel leads them deep into obfuscation, secrecy, and dishonesty. Some are successful for decades, but eventually it will be discovered. That's when the everyone's world is shattered. The initial shock has been compared with learning of the death of a loved one. On the other hand, exposure can very well lead to healing, forgiveness,  and recovery.

[churchistrue]

Is pornography inherently as dangerous and powerful as it seems to be within LDS culture today? Or do we create or add to its power by our fears and expectations? 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, provoman said:

 

 

I agree with Scott. As for what pogi's response. Where is the atonement when a person has repented? 

You and Scott make a very good point.  The problem with addiction is relapse is a possibility that addicts and those who love them must recognize. One principal of repentance (recovery) is to make personal amends to those one has wronged - unless doing so would cause more damage. It's difficult for everyone to navigate these treacherous waters. The Atonement is the way out. How to steer clear of them in the first place.....?

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

I don't think one needs to dredge up endless detail and wallow in it, but sharing at least some of the complicated life's journey one has taken seems rather essential to me.  It is rather important to learn how one's future spouse might deal with one's mistakes, will they accept them as the past and move on or not let go and constantly revisit them, hold grudges, etc.  Being open about past issues may give previews to reactions to future ones.

I agree. With addiction, God forbid, comes relapse. In fairness to oneself and to a future spouse, a person in recovery may want to engage in some level of disclosure. It would be worse, IMO, were the addiction to resurface unannounced once commitments have been made, putting unbearable stress on the relationship. Perhaps marriage preparation classes should include this kind of information.

As others have noted, some think there is no such a thing as sexual or pornography addiction, that porn is harmless or even beneficial, or that it's only a problem created by repressive religions. When discovered, some expect their spouses to accept their behavior and see nothing wrong with what they are doing. This makes it very difficult for a faithful Mormon.....most of us are simply not prepared to deal with such things.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, MorningStar said:

Very.  They have 4 small children and judges don't care if a man looks at porn.  That means he gets 50% custody, at least for now, and he'll probably be another careless man who exposes his children to it.  Years ago my friend came home from a Relief Society conference early and caught her husband surfing in front of their small children.  Either you stay with them to protect the kids or you take your chances for your sanity and divorce them.  Eventually she divorced him, but quite a few years after her brother saw his truck parked at a strip club where he maxed out one of their credit cards.  This is why I get extremely annoyed when people say, "If the church just wouldn't make a big deal out of this....."  This is a big deal!!!  And it's not just LDS men pulling this kind of crap.  The church warns about this over and over again because this is what's happening to countless families.

Oh, here's another fun story - also in my ward.  After years and years of pornography addiction, a well respected man in my ward started seeing prostitutes and didn't fess up until one of them blackmailed him.  Even more amazing, someone saw him shopping at Fred Meyer with a prostitute.  REALLY?!  His daughter cried in RS that no men from her family would be able to attend her sealing and her mom started crying too.  I'm sick to death of this kind of thing. His wife has really been a saint about this and he's still having delusions that she'll come around and take him back again.  Nope.  She's so done with him.  You look at this woman and think, "Wow.  She looks like a movie star."  She actually was a movie star years ago.  She is beautiful, talented, spiritual, and still managed to end up with a scumbag.  No woman is immune.

I'll share something else too.  My oldest son started struggling after the school required the kids to use laptops at school and for homework.  There was no locking them out of it or anything.  So he feels like crap because he's been struggling for years and when my 12yo searched some inappropriate things, we had a sit down and told the boys, "This is what's going on with your brother and someone caused me to blame him for things that were searched.  I know who it is, but I want you to fess up."  The child didn't fess up, but I did eventually drag it out of him.  I gave him a reality check by saying every single search term out loud so he would hear how shocking it was and then I made him say to his brother, "I'm sorry for looking up naked prostitute.  I'm sorry for looking up sexy teacher."  Our other son blurts out ,"Why did you look that up?!"  Then I told my son, "Next time you think about Googling something, think about whether you want to say it in front of your mom." 

Then I flat out told the boys they better listen and obey what we've been telling them for years because Bro. So and So just got excommunicated for being "unfaithful" and Brother So and So was getting divorced because he not only is addicted to pornography - he didn't respect his wife when she said no.  These are men they respected or were even their leaders.  I had told my oldest before, "I know you feel like garbage and that you're alone, but there are grown men in our ward struggling with this and boys who aren't telling."  He had no idea that his own Scout leader was one of them.

I don't know how else to get through to them.  We told our boys, "You're not married yet and Satan is already trying to ruin your family.  He wants you and your family to be miserable.  He wants you to break your wives hearts and leave your children devastated."  I saw our bishop having a heart to heart with prostitute man's son. He is clearly not doing well. 

Well, you get it for sure. Sadly, this is no longer uncommon. These stories are pretty raw, but this is the blunt reality many are facing now. Some of us want to minimize the problem, but I think everyone reading this has stories similar to yours to tell. We slough it off at our own peril.

I had never thought about this in the way you just said...."Satan is destroying your future family right now." That is brilliant! With your permission I would like to use it for other venues. Porn addiction is his perfect tool to accomplish that plan. 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, churchistrue said:

Is pornography inherently as dangerous and powerful as it seems to be within LDS culture today? Or do we create or add to its power by our fears and expectations? 

Just as with addictive substances, not everyone who uses abuses. It is powerful and dangerous, however, and IMO people would be wise to steer away.

Are you suggesting this is a problem only for Mormons and other "repressive" people? Do only religious women hurt when they discover their husband has replaced his feelings for her with a virtual substitute? I don't think so.

It is being recognized as a destructive influence in many other circles, especially as more is learned about its impact on children who are exposed to it. I recognize that because of our emphasis on covenants, fidelity, and family we are vulnerable to its negative impact, but I don't think we are alone or that  the solution is to jettison those beliefs.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, SteveO said:

I was an infantryman in the army, and those guys are more than a little rough around the edges...I have every confidence even they'd recognize the incredible level of disrespect in that relationship...geez, how unfortunate 

That's what happens in relationships that are destroyed by secret addictions. The victim becomes an unwilling (and often unknowing) participant until the secret is exposed. Then all the blame, denial, bargaining, manipulating stuff begins. The spouse didn't sign up for this but now must deal with the chaos that ensues. So much sorrow could be avoided if we could figure out how to deal with this before covenants are made.

[Bernard Gui]

On December 29, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Jeanne said:

I have a friend that went through this with her own bishop.  She left his office feeling like it was all her fault..so, yes I very much agree with you.  We can do better.  Of course this means understanding the affects of betrayal and also a realization that it is an addiction.

No sister should ever leave a leader's office feeling not believed or worse that it is her fault. Assumptions should be withheld until the truth is known for both the victim's and the accused' sakes. Sadly, some sisters are treated unjustly. This should not happen.

[pogi]

13 hours ago, provoman said:

I agree with Scott. As for what pogi's response. Where is the atonement when a person has repented? 

Healing from addiction and repentance for porn use are two very different things.  If a young man simply repents for porn use without addressing and applying the atonement to the deeper core issues of addiction (which have nothing to do with pornography), then they will not find any healing from addiction through the atonement.  Relapse will be inevitable.  Healing is required on the emotional, spiritual, and even physical level and can take many, many years - creating new neuronal passage ways and healing the nuclear accumbens, pre-frontal cortex and amygdala takes time!    

If a young man knows that he has an addiction, then his future spouse ABSOLUTELY needs to know what she is getting into.  You don't want to trick anyone into marrying you by leaving out important information.   It is the breech of trust and disillusionment that often stings the worst for the spouse.  

Edited December 31, 2016 by pogi

[mnn727]

On 12/30/2016 at 2:45 AM, Bernard Gui said:

What would you say to the young sister who wants some assurance that she isn't marrying into a future catastrophe?

That can happen due to anything, not just porn.

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

That can happen due to anything, not just porn.

True, but this discussion has been about the effects of this particular addiction on marriage.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

43 minutes ago, pogi said:

Healing from addiction and repentance for porn use are two very different things.  If a young man simply repents for porn use without addressing and applying the atonement to the deeper core issues of addiction (which have nothing to do with pornography), then they will not find any healing from addiction through the atonement.  Relapse will be inevitable.  Healing is required on the emotional, spiritual, and even physical level and can take many, many years - creating new neuronal passage ways and healing the nuclear accumbens, pre-frontal cortex and amygdala takes time!    

If a young man knows that he has an addiction, then his future spouse ABSOLUTELY needs to know what she is getting into.  You don't want to trick anyone into marrying you by leaving out important information.   It is the breech of trust and disillusionment that often stings the worst for the spouse.  

Indeed. It is such a difficult thing. Satan's perfect tool.

[Bernard Gui]

This is a visual Sister Gui and I use in our support groups. The people inside the bubble are the ones we love who are trapped in addiction. They look just like the people we loved and trusted. But something has happened that ruined the love and trust. The glass represents their addiction. All that we say and do is filtered through this glass, and they see the world from inside the glass. We cannot have a relationship with the glass, but that is what we are trying to do unless it is removed. For some addictions like pornography, the glass can be almost undetectable. There is no odor, body change, overt behavior that is apparent, but the glass is there nevertheless. Eventually it will become visible and then bad things can happen.

On the other hand, if we have loved ones in addiction, we can also the ones in the glass which represents the chaos, despair, and helplessness we feel as we deal with the fallout. Our world and our relationships are filtered through our struggles to cope.

If anyone reading this thread has been moved by what has been discussed, please know that the Savior is able to bring healing. He can remove the glass. Professional and spiritual help is available and it can be life-saving. Please do not let shame, guilt, or fear prevent you from seeking his help and becoming free once again.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Bernard Gui