Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. Of course it would be best to fix the problem before making commitments that will eventually make one's private problem a horrible problem for a lot of people. We're not talking about occasional exposure to erotica, but to actively seeking it out at a level that becomes uncontrollable and destructive. It goes way beyond "growing up." What does one do to protect oneself from lying and hiding an addiction that began long before the marriage? We would not be ok with our child marrying an alcoholic or crack addict. 

The same thing we would do to protect ourselves from any destructive behaviour, get to know the person semiwell before engagement and well before marriage...and this can only occur by making a conscious effort to be transparent about oneself as well.  It would probably be best to combine a lot of couple time just living life with spending time communicating and actually practicing how they are going to go about dealing as a couple with finances, discipline as well as sharing child rearing time, household duties both immediate (kitchen, bathrooms, vacuuming, laundry, yard work, furnace care, car, etc. etc. etc.), expectations of church related involvement, how much time and when spending time with inlaws...don't assume that all this stuff should just be worked on when it is time to deal with it while recognizing that any plan will need to be tweaked and possibly thrown out if it doesn't match reality.  During this time a lot of attitudes towards 'stuff' can be naturally discussed, the exposure to porn might more comfortably be brought up in a conversation about the limits they are going to put on their entertainment aspect, how much time allowed to be invested as well as what comfort levels exists.  Discussions about what is and isn't expected in their sex life could be brought up in a discussion about how many kids and the timing of them.  

Having general conversations that then go into details will feel less 'gotcha' as well as develop greater naturalness in discussing difficult issues in my opinion.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, mapman said:

My knowledge of psychology is pretty limited, so I hesitate to reply to this. My understanding is that a lot of different things can become compulsive behavior that would exhibit the same cycle of pleasure-seeking and self-hate that would register as dopamine spikes in the brain. Some chemicals get you into that cycle (addictions), and if you have emotional problems other behaviors can get you into the same cycle as well. I don't think that porn is inherently addictive to everyone, but that some people are susceptible to it if they have feelings of self-hate about their sexuality. Other people that have feelings of self-hate due to their body image might develop eating disorders, for another example, even though food isn't inherently addictive.

In any case, I hope I'm not coming off sounding like I'm defending porn. I think it is bad regardless of whether it is addictive or not because it demeans sexual acts into something that can be consumed like a product instead of something sacred and intimate.

It actually is the dopamine spikes that create the cycle of pleasure-seeking.  Even chemicals like heroin work because they stimulate dopamine production.  If i'm understanding correctly, my knowledge is very limited as well.  

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, morgan.deane said:

If I was dating somebody and they asked me this it would probably be the end of the relationship.  Not because I'm some addled porn addict but because it suggests a world view that is incredibly unhealthy. I can think of a variety of issues that are way more important to know than the partners porn use. A relationship should start with basic compatibility issues of course.  But I've been on dates that put a long spiritual check list on the table almost immediately. Assuming the relationship is at a serious point where you get into the weeds of somebody's potential deal breaking behaviors, I can still think of a dozen issues arguably just as important to know about such as their tendency to use emotional manipulation, financially cheat, have inappropriate boundaries with in laws, gossip, physically abuse, exhibit mental health issues, and their potential fidelity which can affect the marriage just as much if not more than the porn use from the man.  (My marriage was pretty awesome if you couldn't tell from that list.)  So if a potential partner elevates this issue above all others to the point that she will surprise interrogate me in what your overheard conversation seems like an inappropriate way then I'm walking for the door and she can get the check.  

This is leaving aside a variety of issues that this touches upon such as the church culture that has elevated this issue, the unhealthiness of that elevation for relationships and men in the church (as several others have correctly mentioned already), and the debate over the diagnostic function and efficacy of using "addiction" terminology to describe these behaviors.     

Fascinating.

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

I don't think it helps to ask a guy if he has a porn problem.  If they lie to their bishop, their parents, their stake president, go on a mission (and through the temple) while addicted to porn, then they're just going to keep lying to the woman they love so they can get married, thinking that their addiction will be over when they finally get to have actual sex.  Only to be shocked to learn that they are still addicted to porn.

That's the sad truth.  The young women should learn the signs of pornography addiction and avoid dating anyone who acts like x, y, and z to avoid being put through that Hell. 

I think a true addiction to porn where they have been actively hiding it probably falls in this category.  I would like to hear from Bluedreams to see her experience with this, but she has been quiet of late and really, it seems like asking her to take a busman's holiday to address this (and how many of you know this now obscure idiom?).

I think discussing more typical experiences with porn, including compulsions they may have discussed with others, would be more likely to be openly talked about if conversations about a wide variety of plans and lifestyle choices and expectations were discussed on an ongoing basis once some level of commitment had been made to each other (as I suggest above).

Edited December 29, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I have a close friend who has experience with this and it definitely was the lying that did the most harm. 

However, eventually the porn habit became an affair habit, so it definitely became about more than the lying. 

She stayed with him though and they are doing well. It's taken months and literally thousands of dollars in therapy though. And she's still recovering emotionally. 

I have witnessed this outcome a few times, but it is certainly the exception rather than the rule, especially when it leads to adultery and abandonment. The initial shock of discovery is akin to experiencing the death of a loved one, and the grieving process is the same. In fact, it may be worse than an unexpected death in some cases.

[Bernard Gui]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Violence in general.  I was just watching a new (as in current and not from the 50s) show where it pushed the way too common idea that the best way to resolve animosity between men was to beat each other black and blue because that leads to mutual respect while being a caring person who uses their heart and mind just leads to ridicule.  It is everywhere for males of any age.

I wanted to puke. 

That's the only way some of us learn. 

 

[mapman]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It actually is the dopamine spikes that create the cycle of pleasure-seeking.  Even chemicals like heroin work because they stimulate dopamine production.  If i'm understanding correctly, my knowledge is very limited as well.  

Haha, well I'm going to do some more reading to see if I can understand this better!

This thread is making me a little anxious about dating and marriage, honestly. Hopefully someone will be able to like me with all my quirks and dumb mistakes and I won't screw it up 

Edited December 29, 2016 by mapman

[VideoGameJunkie]

How often must someone use porn before it's labeled an addiction? Twice a month?

[rodheadlee]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

When sanity and/or life itself become the issue.

So your word is not really your bond if you don't mean for Better or For Worse in sickness and in health. Would you leave your wife if she had cancer?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, mapman said:

I know from personal experience that getting professional help for your emotional problems can really transform your life. I have at various points in my life suffered from some emotional problems and it took me way longer than it should have to go get help, but it has helped me deal with some things that happened to me when I was growing up and to deal with my emotions, really making my life a lot better. It can be really difficult for a lot of people to go get help (especially for men for some reason), but it's best not to let problems fester inside you.

I'm sorry to hear that happened to your friend, that sounds terrible! I hope that everything works out for the best for her!

These are good words of advice that more of us men should take to heart.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[MorningStar]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And those signs (which parents, siblings, church leaders, employers, and others missed for decades) would be...........? Why can't she ask if there is a problem?

She can ask, but she's not going to get the truth if he's been lying to everyone else.  I know a guy who told his fiancé he had never looked at porn or masturbated his entire life, which of course was a lie.  He did so pretty much every day.  Parents and siblings probably saw the signs, but didn't get the truth.  I've told my boys that if they become addicted to pornography, they are obligated to tell any potential wife and they will have to figure out when that time is.  After a few dates?  When you start talking about marriage? 

For starters, I would teach my girls to avoid or stop dating guys who can't seem to drag themselves out of bed for church consistently, seem to stay up all hours of the night, are secretive about their phone/computer, seem to go through cycles of negativity, irritability, or anger for no apparent reason, and to pay attention to the way they talk about women and sex (if they talk about it). And I would tell them about the correlation between video game addiction and porn addiction, which often go together.  My sister almost married a real jerk and let it fly out of his mouth that he wanted a (fill in vulgar term) on his wedding night.  Big red flag for a return missionary who's supposedly chaste.  So glad she didn't marry him!

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, mapman said:

My knowledge of psychology is pretty limited, so I hesitate to reply to this. My understanding is that a lot of different things can become compulsive behavior that would exhibit the same cycle of pleasure-seeking and self-hate that would register as dopamine spikes in the brain. Some chemicals get you into that cycle (addictions), and if you have emotional problems other behaviors can get you into the same cycle as well. I don't think that porn is inherently addictive to everyone, but that some people are susceptible to it if they have feelings of self-hate about their sexuality. Other people that have feelings of self-hate due to their body image might develop eating disorders, for another example, even though food isn't inherently addictive.

In any case, I hope I'm not coming off sounding like I'm defending porn. I think it is bad regardless of whether it is addictive or not because it demeans sexual acts into something that can be consumed like a product instead of something sacred and intimate.

Choice of words to use is important because of all the baggage that comes with it (expectations, fears, dreams, anger and despair or hope and love from past experiences), understanding can be inhibited by a poor choice or overly used and laden word like addiction.  "Compulsion" is probably a better term and more likely to lead to an open discussion than "addiction", especially since "addiction" doesn't mean the same thing to everyone, but people tend to think it does in my experience while using "compulsion" or a similar term would more likely result in someone asking "what do you mean by that?".  Talking specifics is always better imo, though time consuming and often uncomfortable in many things) or at least listening before assuming they understand and therefore start thinking more about what they are going to say rather than what they are hearing.

[mapman]

1 minute ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

How often must someone use porn before it's labeled an addiction? Twice a month?

Like I explained above, I don't think "addiction" is necessarily the right word to describe compulsive behavior, but I think you can identify compulsive behavior less by the frequency and more by the effects it has on a person's life and their lack of ability to stop the behavior by just deciding to stop it.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

What would be an acceptable answer, assuming arguendo that the sister is right in her assumption about all or virtually all young men having viewed it?

Furthermore, how detailed a confession about past wrongdoing can prospective marriage partners appropriately expect from each other?  In this instance, would it be enough to say that the last occasion is long enough ago that it is not an issue today? As a quid pro quo, might the young man then appropriately ask the young women about her past dating behavior or whether she enjoys reading trashy romance novels?

In short, might such tell-all disclosure in itself lead to problems with the relationship down the road, assuming the couple decide to go ahead with the marriage?

Having a successful marriage is a dicey enough prospect as it is without each partner having the goods on the other, so to speak. 

Edited December 29, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

The same thing we would do to protect ourselves from any destructive behaviour, get to know the person semiwell before engagement and well before marriage...and this can only occur by making a conscious effort to be transparent about oneself as well.  It would probably be best to combine a lot of couple time just living life with spending time communicating and actually practicing how they are going to go about dealing as a couple with finances, discipline as well as sharing child rearing time, household duties both immediate (kitchen, bathrooms, vacuuming, laundry, yard work, furnace care, car, etc. etc. etc.), expectations of church related involvement, how much time and when spending time with inlaws...don't assume that all this stuff should just be worked on when it is time to deal with it while recognizing that any plan will need to be tweaked and possibly thrown out if it doesn't match reality.  During this time a lot of attitudes towards 'stuff' can be naturally discussed, the exposure to porn might more comfortably be brought up in a conversation about the limits they are going to put on their entertainment aspect, how much time allowed to be invested as well as what comfort levels exists.  Discussions about what is and isn't expected in their sex life could be brought up in a discussion about how many kids and the timing of them.  

Having general conversations that then go into details will feel less 'gotcha' as well as develop greater naturalness in discussing difficult issues in my opinion.

All excellent advice. To be fair with my friends, they would advocate for all the above and have a considerable number of children with successful healthy marriages. The daughter in the OP is a smart cookie and did all these things but still got burned badly, which I realize is always a potential hazard for all of us as we deal with the agency of others. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So your word is not really your bond if you don't mean for Better or For Worse in sickness and in health. Would you leave your wife if she had cancer?

I think it is more a case of being the only one trying to keep the bond intact while the other could care less or is actively trying to destroy it.

Would you refuse to divorce someone who moved in with another guy, mentally in your head even if she asked you to sign divorce papers and you did so...I would assume you would allow a spouse freedom if they asked, especially if after counseling and sincerely working on the relationship they still desired the divorce?  (Serious question, I respect those who choose to see themselves as married even when their spouse has forced a divorce on them...I am not talking about someone who refuses to divorce because they want to keep their spouse in an abusive relationship, but those who see the relationship as unbreakable by man if made by or before God and who are willing to sacrifice mightily to live that way even if their former spouse is not.)

Edited December 29, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

So your word is not really your bond if you don't mean for Better or For Worse in sickness and in health. Would you leave your wife if she had cancer?

I understand your point. No, I wouldn't leave her. But if my addiction caused her to fear for her sanity or her life and that of her children, and I was unwilling or unable to end it, I would not fault her if she chose that path. 

[mapman]

From what Bernard Gui has described it sounds like in that particular case the person didn't end up putting much value into the marriage, but I don't think that's always the case. I think someone could consume porn and still be committed to their marriage. Not saying this wouldn't be problematic for most marriages, but looking at porn doesn't necessarily mean they are going to commit adultery. Most people that would be willing to commit adultery probably wouldn't have qualms about porn either, but I don't think the one leads directly to the other. I think going through counseling in some cases would be better than breaking off the relationship if both parties are willing to work on fixing things.

Also worth pointing out that women look at porn too, which I think is something people tend to overlook.

Edited December 29, 2016 by mapman

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Today a friend told me about the destruction of his daughter's temple marriage caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography. He was first exposed to porn as a youth and had kept his addiction secret until it was accidentally discovered by his wife. This is not the first, second, or third time this has happened to someone I know. But that is not the point of this OP.

He then repeated a question he was asked by a sister who knows the situation and wants to be married and start a family. Her question:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?" My friend's wife, who has sadly witnessed the devastation, said, "Ask the prospective man when was the last time he viewed pornography and see how he reacts."

How would you answer her question? Please, no Sunday School class answers.

I once addressed this topic in Sunday School when someone asked. I explained that in my home that my wife has access to every site, discussion board, etc. she has every password, and every account name. To my surprise people got angry at that model and walked out of class. The angriest was a young wife and mother. 

[Bernard Gui]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What would be an acceptable answer, assuming arguendo that the sister is right in her assumption about all or virtually all young men having viewed it?

Furthermore, how detailed a confession about past wrongdoing can prospective marriage partners appropriately expect from each other?  In this instance, would it be enough to say that the last occasion is long enough ago that it is not an issue today? As a quid pro quo, might the young man then appropriately ask the young women about her past dating behavior or whether she enjoys reading trashy romance novels?

In short, might such tell-all disclosure in itself lead to problems with the relationship down the road, assuming the couple decide to go ahead with the marriage?

I think she is more concerned about a hidden addiction that may later prove devastating. Having witnessed a friend to whom that happened raised the concern in her mind that as pornography becomes more available at a younger age what can she do to protect herself just as if she were dating someone in substance addiction.

Past transgressions (if we believe in the Atonement) that have been resolved may not necessarily have to be disclosed, in my opinion. It would be up to the individual and the Spirit, and could, of course, be a deal breaker. Better to find that out before rather than after commitments are made if it must be done. An ongoing addiction is another matter. 

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

How often must someone use porn before it's labeled an addiction? Twice a month?

If you want to debate that, please start another thread. It's derailing this one. It's an addiction when it becomes destructive, out of control, and takes the place of normal human relationships. Enough said.

[rodheadlee]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it is more a case of being the only one trying to keep the bond intact while the other could care less or is actively trying to destroy it.

Would you refuse to divorce someone who moved in with another guy, mentally in your head even if she asked you to sign divorce papers and you did so...I would assume you would allow a spouse freedom if they asked, especially if after counseling and sincerely working on the relationship they still desired the divorce?  (Serious question, I respect those who choose to see themselves as married even when their spouse has forced a divorce on them...I am not talking about someone who refuses to divorce because they want to keep their spouse in an abusive relationship, but those who see the relationship as unbreakable by man if made by or before God and who are willing to sacrifice mightily to live that way even if their former spouse is not.)

Serious answer I wouldn't sign. She can move out do whatever she wants but I wouldn't sign the divorce papers. I'm not the only one either I have a friend who is not even a Mormon and he won't sign the divorce papers. I will hold up my end to the best of my ability. We have been through some really bad times. I'm not going to name them all off but suffice it to say they included a whole realm of sins on her part and my part. The atonement works in marriage. I love my wife more today than at any other time in our life.

 

[Calm]

In response to The post about getting angry over the password question...

A lot of people have an idealized model of marriage being based on trust...meaning to them it never even occurs to you to have doubt.  Having passwords means you believe there may be a chance at failure if you aren't acting as a guard.  Their love for their spouse is enough to protect them, not knowledge they would be exposed if they did it.

I actually think it is a good idea.  Fear of hurting another with that knowledge of failure can help when one is tired and stressed beyond caring about hurting oneself in the long term if one can just get that moment of relief, distraction, etc.  Also it can cause us to take just an extra moment of thinking something through when we might not otherwise.  If one lives one life totally on fear, that is not healthy, but an occasional reliance on it is not a bad thing (think about a debate over speeding or wearing a seatbelt being tilted towards safety because of a slight additional fear of a ticket).  Sometimes we all need a little extra reinforcement in our moments of weakness.  To expect we will never be that weak is to set up failure.

It reminds me of one marriage failing because being in love meant to one spouse that they would never have to work at making the marriage work, it would just always be as easy as when they first fell in love.

Edited December 29, 2016 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

11 minutes ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

I once addressed this topic in Sunday School when someone asked. I explained that in my home that my wife has access to every site, discussion board, etc. she has every password, and every account name. To my surprise people got angry at that model and walked out of class. The angriest was a young wife and mother. 

Why were they angry? Those are real and reasonable protections for the whole family. As Sister Gui and I present our addiction recovery programs to various church groups, it is sad to see the faces of those who are being touched. 

[Jeanne]

These types of questions, IMO, need to be asked before the marriage.  I believe some young couples get married way too fast and they haven't deepened the bond in a relationship that can weather some tough storms.  Looking at marriage through rose colored glasses is easy, romantic and all consuming...but if what they want is a loving, truthful and lasting relationship...they need to be friends enough to ask the tough questions.  It isn't just the porn that can hurt...it is the lie that grows and diseases something that was full of trust.