Porn addiction, marriage, and divorce

[bcuzbcuz]

28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I appreciate your comments, but you misjudged me and misunderstood my comments. I too have personal experience with the awful consequences of drug and alcohol abuse, addiction, and the physical and mental abuse and deaths of several loved ones including siblings and their children. I have spent much of my retirement savings to provide (unfortunately so far unsuccessful) long-term rehabilitation for two sons in addiction. I was in the hospital room when a close friend made the decision to pull the plug on her comatose heroin-overdosed son...her second son to die from that.

Sister Gui and I have participated in the LDS Family Services Addiction Recovery Family Support Program for 11 years, for 2 years as ones seeking support, for 9 years now as ones leading family support groups, and I have served as a non-professional regional coordinator for 2 years now. 

Over these years I have personally witnessed the rapid increase in pornography addiction and the destruction, chaos, and heartbreak it causes. Many experts and laypeople, shockingly even on this board, deny it is addictive or that it is even a problem. I don't agree with them, no matter how many letters they have after there names.

I gave the 11 signs of substance addiction for the purpose of showing that porn addiction satisfies each those criteria, not to diminish the awful nature of substance addiction. Such comparison is not out of place. It becomes more relevant with every new family it destroys. I just witnessed two more last week. In our official presentations to Church groups, Sister Gui and I  used to ask "Please raise your hand if you know someone who is in or has a loved one in addiction." Most hands would go up.

Now we have changed the question to "Raise your hand if you do not have someone you love who has been harmed by addiction." No hands go up.

I heartily agree with the rest of your post. It's time we take all addictions very seriously. I have come to hate addiction...all forms including pornography. I have no time or patience with those who minimize it or joke about it. It is Satan's most perfect tool, destroying everyone it touches. 

It would seem we are more in agreement than not. I have no experience with any adults dealing with porn addiction other than outrage at how callously our legal system ( here in Europe) deals with child pornography, its distribution and the hunting down of those that perpetrate it. 

I have dealt with students, as young as in the fourth grade, addicted to porn, with parents either oblivious or in denial. As an administrator I have tried to push for legal interventions, suspecting child abuse, but many legal measures are paper tigers.

 As I stated, I would rather than chasing down the wrongdoers through a backward trail of tenuous links, to pull the plug at the sources. An active censurship of what is available on line. Any parent who has bought into the supposed net- nanny program wares,  have quickly discovered how ineffective such programs are. Our children are far more savvy in the internet than we could hope to be.

As far as adults having access to adult materials, I am far more ambivolent. I will let your greater experience preside.

[Bernard Gui]

36 minutes ago, bcuzbcuz said:

It would seem we are more in agreement than not. I have no experience with any adults dealing with porn addiction other than outrage at how callously our legal system ( here in Europe) deals with child pornography, its distribution and the hunting down of those that perpetrate it. 

I have dealt with students, as young as in the fourth grade, addicted to porn, with parents either oblivious or in denial. As an administrator I have tried to push for legal interventions, suspecting child abuse, but many legal measures are paper tigers.

 As I stated, I would rather than chasing down the wrongdoers through a backward trail of tenuous links, to pull the plug at the sources. An active censurship of what is available on line. Any parent who has bought into the supposed net- nanny program wares,  have quickly discovered how ineffective such programs are. Our children are far more savvy in the internet than we could hope to be.

As far as adults having access to adult materials, I am far more ambivolent. I will let your greater experience preside.

I don't cite my experiences for the purpose of showing some sort of moral or intellectual superiority, but rather to explain that I am heavily, seriously, and personally invested in this issue....out of necessity and survival. It's not something I sought out. But I have learned many things I could not have learned any other way.

We are united in our abhorrence and opposition to this curse. Involving children invokes for me the image of millstones, necks, and the deep ocean. I'm not ambivalent about adult access, though. Nothing good comes from it.

I heartily agree with the rest of your post. It's time we take all addictions very seriously. I have come to hate addiction. It is Satan's most perfect tool, destroying everyone it touches. 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[kllindley]

On 1/9/2017 at 0:14 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Perhaps you are unaware of what LDS Family Services and the Addiction Recovery Program are doing.

I'm not sure on what you base this judgment. I would like some evidence to back this assertion.

Consider this a Call For References that my group is an exception and that the LDS ARP is ineffective and little better than nothing. 

 

I appreciate the charitable approach to my comment.  I am sorry for the quick fly by comment, which lacked additional explanation and evidence.  First I will clarify the comment, providing some additional context.  Secondly, I will address the claim that your group would be the exception to avoiding shame.  Finally, I will address the claims about the efficacy of 12 step programs.  

First, clarification:  I did not claim that LDS ARP is ineffective and I in fact said that it is better than nothing.  I did state that LDS ARP is less effective than other approaches.  Where am I coming from in making these claims?  I have worked to overcome a pornography addiction myself.  I participated in LDS ARP, as well as professional therapy and professional group therapy.  I am currently a therapist and frequently treat individuals with problems related to compulsive sexual behaviors.  

Second, the LDS addiction recovery program is adapted from other 12 step addiction recovery approaches.  I made the claim, and stand by it, that in general the 12 step model does use a shame based approach.  As evidence, I first cite some definitions of shame.  Then I will explain why I believe the mentality behind 12 steps is shame-based.

"Shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of being flawed and therefore unworthy of acceptance and belonging."  Brene Brown  She goes on to explain that "Shame is the fear of disconnection."

I sincerely hope that I am wrong.  I would love to be wrong about this.  In fact, there have been some major revisions to the LDS ARP manual in the last 10 years that do demonstrate a shift away from shame.  I'm just stating the fact that many of the men who I work with have done ARP and still report feeling shame about their behavior. They feel that they are unworthy husbands and fathers until they are completely free from this addiction.  They have been trained to blame themselves and their lack of commitment to the 12 Steps, or even their lack of faith in the Atonement every time they relapse.  With many of these men, I have to spend the first several sessions undoing the damage caused by this shame before we can even start to make progress on changing their behavior.  

I hope that my past experience, and the ongoing experiences of the men who come to me for help, are the anomaly and exception to the rule. However, the conversation on this thread doesn't give me a lot of hope.  I struggle to see how a young man with a history of compulsive pornography use can read these responses and think, "Yeah, I'm worthy of getting married and being loved." Bringing up extreme scenarios is shame inducing.  Comparisons to Ted Bundy and rapists don't exactly promote feeling connected and accepted.  

Finally, evidence supports the claim that 12 Step approaches, are less effective than other approaches.  

http://www.thecleanslate.org/is-twelve-step-facilitation-really-an-evidence-based-treatment/

http://hams.cc/effective.pdf

At the same time, LDS ARP is cost-effective.  But sometimes you get what you pay for.  I find it telling that the BYU-I and BYU counseling centers don't just recommend LDS ARP to students.  They use other, empirically supported interventions.  

In conclusion, I am a fan of anything that works for people.  I accept and support the fact that many people are helped by the LDS ARP.  I believe that it is inspired. I also don't believe that it is the most effective or absolute best way of treating addiction.  Am I biased in that?  Sure.  I am.  My personal experiences and my experiences with other men surely play into that.  After all, I'm not likely to see those that are helped by the LDS ARP.  Just like someone attending or even facilitating LDS APR isn't necessarily going to see the people who don't mesh well with that approach.  

[kllindley]

I forgot to add a link to the best approach to compulsive sexual behavior from an LDS perspective.

http://www.byui.edu/counseling-center/self-help/compulsive-behaviors

Specifically:

http://www.byui.edu/Documents/counseling-center/Compulsive Behaviors/Compulsive Behaviors.pdf

[kllindley]

On 12/29/2016 at 2:09 AM, Bernard Gui said:

"Given the fact that virtually all young men are now exposed to pornography, how can I be sure I am marrying someone who is not going to destroy our marriage by an addiction he is keeping secret?

I believe this question deserves a thorough response.  My answer would be to make sure that you don't give him any incentive to keep it a secret.  Make sure to have a conversation where you demonstrate your understanding of compulsive sexual behavior, your lack of judgment, and how much you admire the men who work on recovery and are honest with others.  Explicitly state that you are would be able to accept and marry a pornography addict as long as there was honest, open communication and a commitment to recovery (defined as progress holistically rather than just abstinence.) 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, kllindley said:

I appreciate the charitable approach to my comment.  I am sorry for the quick fly by comment, which lacked additional explanation and evidence.  First I will clarify the comment, providing some additional context.  Secondly, I will address the claim that your group would be the exception to avoiding shame.  Finally, I will address the claims about the efficacy of 12 step programs.  

First, clarification:  I did not claim that LDS ARP is ineffective and I in fact said that it is better than nothing.  I did state that LDS ARP is less effective than other approaches.  Where am I coming from in making these claims?  I have worked to overcome a pornography addiction myself.  I participated in LDS ARP, as well as professional therapy and professional group therapy.  I am currently a therapist and frequently treat individuals with problems related to compulsive sexual behaviors.  

Second, the LDS addiction recovery program is adapted from other 12 step addiction recovery approaches.  I made the claim, and stand by it, that in general the 12 step model does use a shame based approach.  As evidence, I first cite some definitions of shame.  Then I will explain why I believe the mentality behind 12 steps is shame-based.

"Shame is the intensely painful feeling or experience of being flawed and therefore unworthy of acceptance and belonging."  Brene Brown  She goes on to explain that "Shame is the fear of disconnection."

I sincerely hope that I am wrong.  I would love to be wrong about this.  In fact, there have been some major revisions to the LDS ARP manual in the last 10 years that do demonstrate a shift away from shame.  I'm just stating the fact that many of the men who I work with have done ARP and still report feeling shame about their behavior. They feel that they are unworthy husbands and fathers until they are completely free from this addiction.  They have been trained to blame themselves and their lack of commitment to the 12 Steps, or even their lack of faith in the Atonement every time they relapse.  With many of these men, I have to spend the first several sessions undoing the damage caused by this shame before we can even start to make progress on changing their behavior.  

I hope that my past experience, and the ongoing experiences of the men who come to me for help, are the anomaly and exception to the rule. However, the conversation on this thread doesn't give me a lot of hope.  I struggle to see how a young man with a history of compulsive pornography use can read these responses and think, "Yeah, I'm worthy of getting married and being loved." Bringing up extreme scenarios is shame inducing.  Comparisons to Ted Bundy and rapists don't exactly promote feeling connected and accepted.  

Finally, evidence supports the claim that 12 Step approaches, are less effective than other approaches.  

http://www.thecleanslate.org/is-twelve-step-facilitation-really-an-evidence-based-treatment/

http://hams.cc/effective.pdf

At the same time, LDS ARP is cost-effective.  But sometimes you get what you pay for.  I find it telling that the BYU-I and BYU counseling centers don't just recommend LDS ARP to students.  They use other, empirically supported interventions.  

In conclusion, I am a fan of anything that works for people.  I accept and support the fact that many people are helped by the LDS ARP.  I believe that it is inspired. I also don't believe that it is the most effective or absolute best way of treating addiction.  Am I biased in that?  Sure.  I am.  My personal experiences and my experiences with other men surely play into that.  After all, I'm not likely to see those that are helped by the LDS ARP.  Just like someone attending or even facilitating LDS APR isn't necessarily going to see the people who don't mesh well with that approach.  

Long story short. LDS ARP is just another tool in the arsenal of the fight against addiction. Everyone I have associated with in Family Services recommends professional counseling, medical assistance, and anything else that may be effective. Of course there are bad apples and failure in any system that works with addiction; however, I have never seen LDSFS advocate shaming, shunning, belittling, or any other such behavior. In fact, we are instructed NOT to use those terms and ideas. 12 Step groups serve a good and productive purpose. I am a recipient of their help and am a witness of their effectiveness in the lives of many, many people. Your criticism seems to be somewhat informed, but it is unjustified.

I hope we can stand united in opposition to pornography and support any means to help those afflicted with the addiction.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[kllindley]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I hope we can stand united in opposition to pornography and support any means to help those afflicted with the addiction.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.  Lest there be any doubt that I oppose pornography and support those it impacts, I want to share an article, I wrote for a Mormon Young Adult Website a couple of years ago.  

Quote

Pornography is like a wildfire in its consuming, destructive capacity.  The good news is that just like nature can turn fire into an opportunity for renewal, the Atonement of Jesus Christ can enable us to cultivate beauty from ashes.

Samantha’s post about pornography does an excellent job of pointing out some of the very real dangers of this societal plague.  Pornography use is more prevalent and problematic than ever.  It’s a normal human response to feel overwhelmed or helpless when facing such a complex and damaging problem.  Despite these challenges, there are many reasons for hope.  Whether you face issues of pornography use personally, care about someone who does, or just want to be better prepared, here are 10 reasons to be hopeful and optimistic in the face of a pornography epidemic.

1. Not all pornography use is addiction

Many researchers and mental health professionals agree that sexual addictions can be just as real and harmful as chemical addictions.  But that doesn’t mean that anyone who has looked at pornography, even many times, is addicted.  This means that for most people struggling to change their behavior, basic spiritual and behavioral suggestions can be effective.

Distinguishing between pornography use and a pornography addiction can be challenging.  Some of the key differences include continuing use despite repeated attempts to stop, using pornography to cope with emotional stress, spending large amounts of time and/or money on porn, and using even when it causes negative consequences like losing a job, not being able to complete school work, or interfering with relationships.

Take away: Both addiction and non-addicted use can cause significant problems.  Both can be overcome.  Knowing the difference tells you which strategies will be most effective.

2. The brain is highly plastic

In psychological fields, plasticity refers to the brain’s capacity to change and adapt throughout our lives.  These changes can occur as a result of our environment as well as our behavior.  While this means that pornography use does change the wiring in our brains, healing can be equally permanent.  It’s rarely enough to simply stop looking at porn.  Stopping is an important step in the process of accessing the Atonement; however, repentance entails a deeper change of heart and mind.  As we continue to love and learn in healthy relationships, our body and spirit can both heal.

Healing through Jesus Christ is so much more than erasing the effect of sin.  The process of repentance, of seeking and receiving Grace, is designed to make us like Christ.  Just as the Atonement didn’t put Adam and Eve back in Eden, our journey through mortality isn’t just about pulling weeds.  God wants us to be a garden in full-bloom.  Trials may be just what we need to push us toward greater growth then we would otherwise reach.

3. Therapy works

Can a person overcome pornography use or addiction without professional therapy?  Absolutely!  Can broken bones heal without medical treatment?  Sure.  It may take longer and be more painful.  It would certainly be less expensive.  Call me old-fashioned, but when I break my arm or get sick, I want a doctor.  Some doctors are more skilled than others, sometimes the best they can do is prescribe lots of rest and fluids.  And most of the time seeing a doctor helps speed recovery and reduce complications.

If a person would seek professional help for a physical ailment, why wouldn’t they also seek professional help for emotional, mental, or behavioral concerns?  Therapy can be helpful in identifying addiction, addressing underlying issues that may contribute to continued use, and increase the power of your own efforts.  If you have been impacted by someone else’s pornography use, therapy can help you sort through the pain and confusion.  If you’ve tried fighting this wildfire on your own and feel like you’re still losing the battle, consider enlisting professional help.

4. Pornography is one of Satan’s greatest weapons

By itself, pornography is addictive and destructive.  However, the current cultural climate has brought together a number of different risk factors to create “the perfect storm” which leaves so many people vulnerable to this attack.  A young man or woman caught up in pornography quickly loses confidence and direction.  What more could the Adversary want than to prevent so many chosen spirits from accomplishing the good God has sent them to do?

So what’s the good news here?  Weapons are used in war.  Satan’s war is not really against the children of men.  It’s against their Father.  That means that in this battle, no one is facing temptation alone.  Whether we are fighting on our own personal front or suffering the fall-out of another person’s battle, God is on our side.  And the fact that the Enemy has had to resort to a weapon like pornography must mean that the stakes are very high.  He is threatened by your potential for good.  And if he is that scared, Heavenly Father is even more committed to helping your succeed.

5. Shame is the greatest obstacle to healing

Pornography addiction feeds on secrecy.  It thrives on people being too ashamed to talk about it.  And who wants to talk about it?  How many people do you know raising their hands in Relief Society or Elder’s Quorum to talk about their porn addictions?  But I can’t count the number of times I’ve heard people talk themselves out of opening up to a family member, bishop, or friend about the issue.  The excuses are usually pretty familiar.  I can kick this if I really commit, so there’s no need to drag someone else into this mess.  Now this really is the last time; I’m done.  I just need to try harder, it’s not like they can change me anyway.  

If shame is the greatest obstacle to healing, that means it isn’t lack of willpower.  It isn’t lack of desire.  It isn’t not trying hard enough.   The only way to defeat shame is through opening up to others.  If you’re serious about changing, the best thing you can do is reach out to others.  Start with a leader, a parent, a significant other, or a friend.  If someone is reaching out to you, recognize that this is a huge step and a testament of their desire to change.

6. Culture can change (And you can help)

I talked above about a culture that sets youth up to be vulnerable to attacks from the Enemy.  The good news is that culture changes all the time.  We are accustomed to thinking of this process in negative trends.  You know, “The world is getting so wicked.”   But it doesn’t have to be that way.  Every time one of us speaks up in support of those fighting to overcome this behavior, every time we focus on the goodness of the gift of sexuality, every time we speak frankly and respectfully about sexual intimacy, we combat that toxic culture.  The question is not whether we can change the culture, the question is: are you going to contribute to the change or silently promote the status quo?

7. More on Shame

Shame is different from guilt.  Guilt, like Godly Sorrow, is a recognition that we have acted in a way that violates our knowledge of right and wrong.  In other words, “I did bad.”  Shame says, “I am bad.”  Shame tells us that we are defined by our mortal weakness.  Guilt is a gift from God to help us improve.  Shame is a tool of Satan to trap and control us.  If we are going to succeed in combating pornography, personally or culturally, we will have to confront and disarm shame.

Shame so often masquerades as humility.  Shame is at work in phrases like: I can’t believe I slipped up again!  I am so messed up.  I don’t deserve forgiveness after what I did.  How can God love so vile a sinner as me?  I’m not really worthy to expect or even ask for God’s help or comfort right now.  People say they love me, but if they knew the real me. . . Maybe I’m just not cut out for the Celestial Kingdom.  

Take away?  If your feelings move you closer to Christ and motivate you to strive to be better, that’s guilt.  It’s good.  If your feelings tend to keep you stuck in a cycle of sin and discouragement, that’s shame.  Shame is never from God.  Do all you can to confront and disarm shame.

8. Sex addiction is not about sex

It can be easy to be distracted by the overtly sexual nature of a pornography addiction.  And pornography inescapably affects our beliefs and experience of sexuality.  Still, it’s important to understand that at its heart, pornography addiction is not about sex.  It’s much deeper than that.  Healing addiction requires first addressing legitimate needs for social connection, true intimacy, and emotional coping skills.  As these issues become resolved, addiction’s grip is loosened.

9. Real relationships and authentic living are AWESOME!

For people involved in pornography use, it can often seem like real-life relationships are too much work and doomed to be imperfect.  The allure of rejection-free fantasy is powerful.  The thought of engaging and embracing difficult emotions and stress rather than escaping through porn can be frightening.  And what about the fear and vulnerability that comes from loving someone human and flawed?

The reality is that life is beautiful.  It is going to hurt sometimes.  It is often frightening.  We all risk making mistakes.  Loving anyone requires our own vulnerability.  Even with all this difficulty, it’s worth it.  Nothing on the internet can compare to the joy of human relationships.  No soothing escape can match the fulfillment of meeting and overcoming life’s challenges.  It may take several months for your brain to “reboot;” but as it does, you will be amazed at the profound happiness you experience through everyday living and loving.

10. You are not alone

Satan would like nothing more than to convince every one of us that we are alone in our struggles.  He wants us to feel isolated and powerless.  God hasn’t left us alone.  Wherever you are, whatever your circumstances, you have allies and support all around you.  Elder Jeffery R. Holland testified:

“My beloved brothers and sisters, I testify of angels, both the heavenly and the mortal kind. In doing so I am testifying that God never leaves us alone, never leaves us unaided in the challenges that we face. “[N]or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man [or woman or child] upon the face thereof to be saved.”  On occasions, global or personal, we may feel we are distanced from God, shut out from heaven, lost, alone in dark and dreary places. Often enough that distress can be of our own making, but even then the Father of us all is watching and assisting. And always there are those angels who come and go all around us, seen and unseen, known and unknown, mortal and immortal.”

 

[Bernard Gui]

30 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I whole-heartedly agree with this.  Lest there be any doubt that I oppose pornography and support those it impacts, I want to share an article, I wrote for a Mormon Young Adult Website a couple of years ago.  

 

Excellent work. I agree with everything you said. With your permission I would like to add this to the materials we provide members of our support groups. If you grant permission, how do I attribute it?

[cinepro]

Can someone explain to me the meaning behind the term "pornography use"?

I mean, when I watch Star Wars I say "I watched Star Wars."   When I listen to the Beatles I say "I listened to the Beatles."

Both experiences change my emotions and make me feel a certain way, and if I'm having a bad day I might choose a movie or music that will help change my mood to make me feel better, but in neither case to I say "I used Star Wars the other day", or "I used the Beatles".

Why don't we just say "looking at pornography"?

 

[VideoGameJunkie]

9 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Can someone explain to me the meaning behind the term "pornography use"?

I mean, when I watch Star Wars I say "I watched Star Wars."   When I listen to the Beatles I say "I listened to the Beatles."

Both experiences change my emotions and make me feel a certain way, and if I'm having a bad day I might choose a movie or music that will help change my mood to make me feel better, but in neither case to I say "I used Star Wars the other day", or "I used the Beatles".

Why don't we just say "looking at pornography"?

 

Because to be frank people use pornography to masturbate. The 2 are always linked together but people are afraid to say the dreaded M word so they just say use pornography.

[kllindley]

6 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Can someone explain to me the meaning behind the term "pornography use"?

I mean, when I watch Star Wars I say "I watched Star Wars."   When I listen to the Beatles I say "I listened to the Beatles."

Both experiences change my emotions and make me feel a certain way, and if I'm having a bad day I might choose a movie or music that will help change my mood to make me feel better, but in neither case to I say "I used Star Wars the other day", or "I used the Beatles".

Why don't we just say "looking at pornography"?

 

Good question. I'd guess that the main reason is that I've never heard of anyone just sitting there looking at pornography. There's usually some other activity which porn facilitates. 

That said the term "drug use" is perfectly common, when we could just say "self-administering heroin intraveinously." 

[kllindley]

42 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Excellent work. I agree with everything you said. With your permission I would like to add this to the materials we provide members of our support groups. If you grant permission, how do I attribute it?

Absolutely!  

http://www.millennialmorms.com/10-liberating-things-know-pornography/

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

Absolutely!  

http://www.millennialmorms.com/10-liberating-things-know-pornography/

 

I think we may have gotten off on the wrong foot. I was somewhat put out when you said LDS ARP recovery groups are better than nothing, but I understand more of where you are at now. We certainly see eye to eye. My experience is derived from having siblings, nephews and nieces, and two of my own children suffer through addiction including death, learning about it, and dealing with the fallout in my own family. Sister Gui and I often say "we didn't sign up for this." But we have been schooled in the fiery furnace in ways that would not have happened otherwise. 

Indeed, therapy, counseling, and medical help are effective tools in combating addiction, but support groups provide invaluable day to day, week to week, and sometimes hour to hour support for those in addiction and their loved ones. This has certainly been our experience in this painful journey. Paired with the power of the Atonement, complete healing is truly possible.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, cinepro said:

Can someone explain to me the meaning behind the term "pornography use"?

I mean, when I watch Star Wars I say "I watched Star Wars."   When I listen to the Beatles I say "I listened to the Beatles."

Both experiences change my emotions and make me feel a certain way, and if I'm having a bad day I might choose a movie or music that will help change my mood to make me feel better, but in neither case to I say "I used Star Wars the other day", or "I used the Beatles".

Why don't we just say "looking at pornography"?

 

Some people "use" pornography in the same way others "use" drugs. Some "use" both. Both change emotions and make one feel a certain way, and some use them when they are having a bad day to make them feel better, except that doesn't work, so they do it again the next day. When that behavior replaces normal relations with real human beings, the user has a problem. That is called addiction.

Having seen the devastation both cause, I have no "use" for either. Just as there is no good reason to shoot up heroin, there is no good reason to "look at" pornography. We'll let the medical practitioners chime in on how it's used in some therapies. Oh well, I suppose. I'm not talking about that kind of "use." I think you know what we are talking about, right?

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Revenant Angel]

" caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography "?

Or caused by the prudish, unappealing, unattractive behavior that is forged into nearly every female as they grow up in the church?

poster removed

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Revenant Angel said:

" caused by her husband's inability to overcome addiction to pornography "?

Or caused by the prudish, unappealing, unattractive behavior that is forged into nearly every female as they grow up in the church?

Pretty arrogant for your sixth post on this board. If this is how you communicate, you won't last long.

To answer your question, no. Which church are you talking about?