Heard from a friend that Seminary teachers should be paid. I wouldn't be comfortable with that

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, Chum said:

The seminary teacher calling is uniquely difficult. That said, attaching cash to a local calling seems fraught with complexities.

A salaried calling would convert it into employment and employment comes with expectations - eg: focusing on applicants who are objectively qualified. That's tough to do while divine inspiration is notorious for ignoring objective qualifications.

Conclusion: I can't see a path where this transition would be a positive one.

GAs are paid.  Why wouldn't this argument apply to them?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I taught early morning seminary in CA for 6 years.  And every seminary teacher got paid $599 for the year.  I was told that seminary is under CES, not the ward and they required payment for seminary teachers.  CES paid each seminary teacher $599 so that CES did not have to provide W-2 forms.  In theory, it was not related to my church callings.  I also was the teacher advisor at the same time.  I didn't care about the money.  I just donated it back to the Church.  There is no way I would have prepared a lesson daily and gotten up that early every school day morning for $599 for the year. 

As far as the milage thing, not sure what form you needed.  It is a simple deduction anyone can take for any travel related to any Church calling.  You don't need a special form.  It is just like deducting for gas if you use your car for your business.  Since I only lived about 3 miles from the Church, it was also something I never bothered to worry about.

Thanks for the details.   It fits with what my mom said. 

[Tacenda]

9 hours ago, Lazarus 61 said:

I've been waking up every morning on every week days for years, school year plus summer and all holidays.  I like it very well.  Better than not waking up, I think, until I would rather be dead.

Funny Lazarus 61. Are you really Lazarus??

Edited March 7, 2022 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

 

10 hours ago, california boy said:

I taught early morning seminary in CA for 6 years.  And every seminary teacher got paid $599 for the year.  I was told that seminary is under CES, not the ward and they required payment for seminary teachers.  CES paid each seminary teacher $599 so that CES did not have to provide W-2 forms.  In theory, it was not related to my church callings.  I also was the teacher advisor at the same time.  I didn't care about the money.  I just donated it back to the Church.  There is no way I would have prepared a lesson daily and gotten up that early every school day morning for $599 for the year. 

As far as the milage thing, not sure what form you needed.  It is a simple deduction anyone can take for any travel related to any Church calling.  You don't need a special form.  It is just like deducting for gas if you use your car for your business.  Since I only lived about 3 miles from the Church, it was also something I never bothered to worry about.

I think seminary teachers should be paid for the time it to takes for prep work involved to teach each day too. It's the day in and day out that makes me feel they need some compensation. And the stress it can be to be there on time and show up. It's not your average calling in my book. And if mission presidents get paid, and on up the ladder, for sure.

As well, the seminary teachers at the schools etc. are paid, it doesn't matter the amount of students in class, because the home/church seminary teachers would spend the same amount of time on the lessons. And those that don't work with other teachers in a building and are sick or something, can lean on the other teachers for help with their class. Just as bishops and stake presidents can rely on counselors when needed. 

I give you a lot of credit for your service those six years though.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Tacenda

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

I think seminary teachers should be paid for the time it to takes for prep work involved to teach each day too. It's the day in and day out that makes me feel they need some compensation. And the stress it can be to be there on time and show up. It's not your average calling in my book. And if mission presidents get paid, and on up the ladder, for sure.

As well, the seminary teachers at the schools etc. are paid, it doesn't matter the amount of students in class, because the home/church seminary teachers would spend the same amount of time on the lessons. And those that don't work with other teachers in a building and are sick or something, can lean on the other teachers for help with their class. Just as bishops and stake presidents can rely on counselors when needed. 

I give you a lot of credit for your service those six years though.

Well honestly I wouldn't have done it except they asked me to.  I am not an early morning person.  And the grind of preparing a lesson every single day is taxing.  The money seemed really strange to me, like why bother.   But I did love teaching the kids.  And I learned a lot by delving into scriptures that much.  There is a whole lot in the scriptures that is never talked about in sunday school lessons.  

[bluebell]

19 hours ago, Chum said:

I might be confused. Seminary teacher is a calling. Are you saying the position would be better served if it weren't a calling?

I have no principled stand one way or the other. I just suspect it would blow up in our face if we simply attached a salary.

Would salary+de-calling work? Not sure. Regional labor laws might force consideration of non-member hires (unqualified speculation here). I know parents who freaked out over the idea of non-member merit badge counselors. They'd overturn cars if their kids had a non-member seminary teacher.

We were always told that seminary teacher was not a calling when I was growing up outside of Utah and had early morning seminary.  If it's a calling then I agree that paying someone to do it doesn't work.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

GAs are paid.  Why wouldn't this argument apply to them?

Some GAs are paid (or is it all? I can't remember) because their calling requires so much travel time and the calling is basically a full time job.  5 hours a week for 9 mo. a year isn't really comparable.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some GAs are paid (or is it all? I can't remember) because their calling requires so much travel time and the calling is basically a full time job.  5 hours a week for 9 mo. a year isn't really comparable.

https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-web-page-posts-information-about-living-allowance-of-lds-general-authorities#:~:text=Local clergy in The Church,and receive the living allowance.

General Authorities leave their careers when they are called into full time Church service. When they do so, they focus all of their time on serving the Church, and are given a living allowance. The living allowance is uniform for all General Authorities. None of the funds for this living allowance come from the tithing of Church members, but instead from proceeds of the Church's financial investments.

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-web-page-posts-information-about-living-allowance-of-lds-general-authorities#:~:text=Local clergy in The Church,and receive the living allowance.

General Authorities leave their careers when they are called into full time Church service. When they do so, they focus all of their time on serving the Church, and are given a living allowance. The living allowance is uniform for all General Authorities. None of the funds for this living allowance come from the tithing of Church members, but instead from proceeds of the Church's financial investments.

Thanks!

[Rain]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Some GAs are paid (or is it all? I can't remember) because their calling requires so much travel time and the calling is basically a full time job.  5 hours a week for 9 mo. a year isn't really comparable.

It isn't comparable time wise, but most seminary teachers put in more than 5 hours a week.  My mom did more work for it out of class than in.

[let’s roll]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

I taught early morning seminary in CA for 6 years.  And every seminary teacher got paid $599 for the year.  I was told that seminary is under CES, not the ward and they required payment for seminary teachers.  CES paid each seminary teacher $599 so that CES did not have to provide W-2 forms.  In theory, it was not related to my church callings.  I also was the teacher advisor at the same time.  I didn't care about the money.  I just donated it back to the Church.  There is no way I would have prepared a lesson daily and gotten up that early every school day morning for $599 for the year. 

As far as the milage thing, not sure what form you needed.  It is a simple deduction anyone can take for any travel related to any Church calling.  You don't need a special form.  It is just like deducting for gas if you use your car for your business.  Since I only lived about 3 miles from the Church, it was also something I never bothered to worry about.

Thanks for the details.  What years did you teach?  I taught from ‘97-‘00.  Recommended to CES by the Stake.  I didn’t understand it to be a calling.  Don’t remember being sustained, set apart, or released.  And didn’t get $599, so I wonder when that started.

Was supervised by the local CES director who ran the institute program at the local college.  He’d ask us toward the end of each school year if we were going to “re-up.”  I got a nice certificate from CES at the end of the four years.

Prior to teaching I ran at night, but that became impractical when I had to get up at 5:30 a.m. so I wore my sweats to Seminary, and ran after class.  When the CES director would drop in he’d always remind me I was to teach in a white shirt and tie and then tell me to have a good run.  I likely would have taught for another year or two but when they released our SP, he said he’d love to teach Seminary, so I was happy to defer to him.  Happy times.

[poptart]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

I taught early morning seminary in CA for 6 years.  And every seminary teacher got paid $599 for the year.  I was told that seminary is under CES, not the ward and they required payment for seminary teachers.  CES paid each seminary teacher $599 so that CES did not have to provide W-2 forms.  In theory, it was not related to my church callings.  I also was the teacher advisor at the same time.  I didn't care about the money.  I just donated it back to the Church.  There is no way I would have prepared a lesson daily and gotten up that early every school day morning for $599 for the year. 

As far as the milage thing, not sure what form you needed.  It is a simple deduction anyone can take for any travel related to any Church calling.  You don't need a special form.  It is just like deducting for gas if you use your car for your business.  Since I only lived about 3 miles from the Church, it was also something I never bothered to worry about.

Wait, hold on a minute I didn't think you guys got "paid".  I know LDS compensate their "volunteers" in other ways, now they want to be legit paid like say, people who work for DI corporate do?  

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Well honestly I wouldn't have done it except they asked me to.  I am not an early morning person.  And the grind of preparing a lesson every single day is taxing.  The money seemed really strange to me, like why bother.   But I did love teaching the kids.  And I learned a lot by delving into scriptures that much.  There is a whole lot in the scriptures that is never talked about in sunday school lessons.  

I was just talking to my wife about this.  I'm the current Gospel Doctrine teacher in my ward, and one GD lesson covers the same material as 10 seminary lessons.  In GD, I feel like I have to cover the topics at a high altitude, focusing mostly on practical application.  Some lessons, we hardly even touch the scriptures, as we gloss quickly through the stories and move right on to the "how do I use this in my life" discussion.  Some weeks I miss my seminary teacher days, when we lingered over the scriptures and savored each verse.

[Chum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

We were always told that seminary teacher was not a calling when I was growing up outside of Utah and had early morning seminary.  If it's a calling then I agree that paying someone to do it doesn't work.

Looks like it's a calling. Per handbook:

Quote

A member of the stake presidency or an assigned high councilor calls, sets apart, and releases stake seminary teachers and stake supervisors.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, poptart said:

Wait, hold on a minute I didn't think you guys got "paid". 

Stake and ward callings aren't paid positions. As others here have said, General Authorities get a stipend to cover living expenses.

1 hour ago, poptart said:

I know LDS compensate their "volunteers" in other ways, now they want to be legit paid like say, people who work for DI corporate do?  

If our calling incurs expenses, we can typically get those recompensed. Some do some don't.  It often hinges on their finances.

I once reserved an entire campground so our young men wouldn't have to hear hammered believers sing kumbya at 2am. We didn't strictly need the whole thing but the quiet made me happy so it was my donation.

As far as members wanting to be paid, I've never heard a member express that desire. I'm inclined to think it's fairly unusual.

[Calm]

I believe the First Quorum of the Seventy has always been paid and now the Second as well. The difference with the other quorums is that these are for life (until retirement), full time positions and not temporary ones. 

These are called General Authorities while the other Seventies are called Area Seventies. 

Quote

Calls to serve in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles or the First Quorum of the Seventy are calls to “for-life” positions, members of the Twelve serving full-time until they die and members of the First Quorum of Seventy serving full-time until retirement to emeritus status at age seventy. At the present time, calls to other Quorums of the Seventy do not require the same full-time commitment, so those who serve in these positions do not receive the living allowances.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormonism_and_church_finances/No_paid_ministry/General_Authorities_living_stipend#Question:_Why_do_General_Authorities_receive_living_stipends.3F

Edited March 7, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

It isn't comparable time wise, but most seminary teachers put in more than 5 hours a week.  My mom did more work for it out of class than in.

For sure. I just can’t imagine it being more involved than like a stake president, for example. And we don’t pay those. 

[poptart]

21 minutes ago, Chum said:

Stake and ward callings aren't paid positions. As others here have said, General Authorities get a stipend to cover living expenses.

If our calling incurs expenses, we can typically get those recompensed. Some do some don't.  It often hinges on their finances.

I once reserved an entire campground so our young men wouldn't have to hear hammered believers sing kumbya at 2am. We didn't strictly need the whole thing but the quiet made me happy so it was my donation.

As far as members wanting to be paid, I've never heard a member express that desire. I'm inclined to think it's fairly unusual.

Hence why I asked.  That was always one of the things that I liked about the LDS church, how they make all that work.  I'm a fan of paid professional clergy, you get what you pay for.  That being said, how the LDS made all this work in a society that's I've got mine heavy is amazing and inspiring.  Thanks for clearing that up.

That's one reason why I backpack, to get away from the idiots.   We got pulled over by a park ranger last year, dummy me didn't see a stop sign and did one of those rolling stops when no one was around save the park ranger.  We got off with a warning, he had to hustle off pretty quick, so many drunken trouble makers.  You're a good guy.

I knew people who worked for DI proper, they got paid.  Thing is, wow did they earn their money, they had to put up with so much nonsense from people.  At times I was mistaken for a member, think I was one of the only non full time people who didn't have tattoos and piercings everywhere.  You guys have a great system, for the love of God I hope no one screws it up.  

[Rain]

3 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Thanks for the details.  What years did you teach?  I taught from ‘97-‘00.  Recommended to CES by the Stake.  I didn’t understand it to be a calling.  Don’t remember being sustained, set apart, or released.  And didn’t get $599, so I wonder when that started.

With my mom it was something like 1991-1994.  

3 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Was supervised by the local CES director who ran the institute program at the local college.  He’d ask us toward the end of each school year if we were going to “re-up.”  I got a nice certificate from CES at the end of the four years.

Prior to teaching I ran at night, but that became impractical when I had to get up at 5:30 a.m. so I wore my sweats to Seminary, and ran after class.  When the CES director would drop in he’d always remind me I was to teach in a white shirt and tie and then tell me to have a good run.  I likely would have taught for another year or two but when they released our SP, he said he’d love to teach Seminary, so I was happy to defer to him.  Happy times.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

God bless volunteer seminary teachers. It takes a TON of time. Teaching the class is just a small portion of that time. Prep is huge.

A lot of good people have consecrated their time and efforts without $$ and I don't want to discount that. We had one lady in our ward who taught early morning for 20 years. Wow! There are very high expectations placed on these teachers and personally I'd love to see them paid something meaningful.

When I was in high school we had a full time seminary teacher who taught 3 classes throughout the day. He received a decent paycheck yet the woman who taught both early morning AND after school seminary received nothing. That didn't seem right.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

I'm a fan of paid professional clergy, you get what you pay for.

Adding here that bishops aren't dedicated sermonizers. Most Sunday talks are done by rank-n-file members. That goes with the notion that most Church responsibilities aren't attached to related training.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

When I was in high school we had a full time seminary teacher who taught 3 classes throughout the day. He received a decent paycheck

I had never heard of a paid stake/ward calling until this thread. I'm in non-Utah though. Perhaps dynamics are different where the Saints are thicker.

[Hamba Tuhan]

32 minutes ago, Chum said:

I had never heard of a paid stake/ward calling until this thread.

It's not a calling in such places. It's actually a job.

[california boy]

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Thanks for the details.  What years did you teach?  I taught from ‘97-‘00.  Recommended to CES by the Stake.  I didn’t understand it to be a calling.  Don’t remember being sustained, set apart, or released.  And didn’t get $599, so I wonder when that started.

Was supervised by the local CES director who ran the institute program at the local college.  He’d ask us toward the end of each school year if we were going to “re-up.”  I got a nice certificate from CES at the end of the four years.

Prior to teaching I ran at night, but that became impractical when I had to get up at 5:30 a.m. so I wore my sweats to Seminary, and ran after class.  When the CES director would drop in he’d always remind me I was to teach in a white shirt and tie and then tell me to have a good run.  I likely would have taught for another year or two but when they released our SP, he said he’d love to teach Seminary, so I was happy to defer to him.  Happy times.

Not sure the years that I taught, but I think it was before you were teaching..  I got released from teaching seminary when I was called into the bishopric.  I am guessing it was probably 30 years ago.  I have been out of the church for 20 years.  

[Olmec Donald]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:23 AM, nuclearfuels said:

My friend suggested: If one person gets paid for it, everyone shoudl get paid for it - even if it's 1/5th or 1/6th of what full time CES-trained and hired teachers earn.

Would there be back-pay (preferably with interest) for former Seminary teachers?

Asking for a friend...