Freemasonry and the Church

[poptart]

19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Am looking forward to that book, Loyd.

In unpublished comments and lectures, the late Wesley P. Walters suggested that Joseph Smith conceived of the Kingdom of God as one gigantic Masonic Lodge, in which the Worshipful Master in the East is Jesus, while the Senior Warden in the West is Joseph (with Nauvoo opposite and somehow parallel to Jerusalem).  For the early 19th century content of Freemasonry, see William Morgan, Freemasonry Exposed (1827/1880) – of course, Joseph married Morgan's widow, Lucinda Pendleton Morgan Harris, ca. 1838 (F. M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, 459-460).

Frances Yates, Giordano Bruno (1965/1979) shows the dependence of Masonic mythology on the Renaissance Hermetic tradition.  And Hugh Nibley has given his view:

 

I'll just ask, are you a brother?

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

I'll just ask, are you a brother?

No.  I was asked by a good friend long ago to join, but I declined.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

No.  I was asked by a good friend long ago to join, but I declined.

It's a mixed bag.

[Tacenda]

Just saw this elsewhere, I think the LDS church is full of many things from Masonry, the photo below says Holiness to the Lord on the arch and the church has that on every temple doesn't it?

[Calm]

That is because it is from the Bible, Ex 28 and 39. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Calm

[poptart]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Just saw this elsewhere, I think the LDS church is full of many things from Masonry, the photo below says Holiness to the Lord on the arch and the church has that on every temple doesn't it?

http://yorkritehawaiipha.yolasite.com/royal-arch-degrees.php

[longview]

I was surprised in reading this week's D&C lesson that William W. Phelps was a publisher of the anti-Masonic newspaper Ontario Phoenix through 1828.  Phelps was described by Dean Jessee as "one of [the] founders" of the anti-Masonic movement in New York.  He had been excommunicated THREE times but came back every time.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Phelps_(Mormon)#:~:text=William Wines Phelps (February 17,the Latter Day Saint movement.&text=He was at times both,persuade authorities to arrest Smith.

I wonder what would cause Phelps to campaign so vigorously against the Masons?  Considering that Joseph Smith and others had no problem with joining the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge.  Do anybody on this board know the details?  @poptart?  @latterdaytemplar?

[poptart]

7 hours ago, longview said:

I was surprised in reading this week's D&C lesson that William W. Phelps was a publisher of the anti-Masonic newspaper Ontario Phoenix through 1828.  Phelps was described by Dean Jessee as "one of [the] founders" of the anti-Masonic movement in New York.  He had been excommunicated THREE times but came back every time.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Phelps_(Mormon)#:~:text=William Wines Phelps (February 17,the Latter Day Saint movement.&text=He was at times both,persuade authorities to arrest Smith.

I wonder what would cause Phelps to campaign so vigorously against the Masons?  Considering that Joseph Smith and others had no problem with joining the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge.  Do anybody on this board know the details?  @poptart?  @latterdaytemplar?

Have more info?  I have a lot going on this week and next, when I get the chance to sit down and actually do some reading I'll see.  With stuff like this at first glance who knows, I know to this day when someone gets burned by the freemasons the first thing they do is go online and run their mouths off, you see it a lot on reddit nowadays.  Two sides to everything.  Will say, from what I did gleam from that, Joseph Smith and the LDS church was the best thing that ever happened to William Phelps, before joining the church it looks like is life was one failure after another, at least that's what I read please correct me if i'm wrong.  

More time goes on more I feel sorry for Joseph Smith, the USA had so many corruption issues back in the day they like to gloss over nowadays in certain politically charged circles.  It's why I gave Latterdaytemplar so much praise, Utah probably produces some of the best masons in the Western USA now due to the church influence.  Anyway, I'll give you a better answer once I have a chance to sit down and read up on this more, it looks interesting.  If you find anything else please share, thanks!

[the narrator]

14 hours ago, longview said:

I was surprised in reading this week's D&C lesson that William W. Phelps was a publisher of the anti-Masonic newspaper Ontario Phoenix through 1828.  Phelps was described by Dean Jessee as "one of [the] founders" of the anti-Masonic movement in New York.  He had been excommunicated THREE times but came back every time.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Phelps_(Mormon)#:~:text=William Wines Phelps (February 17,the Latter Day Saint movement.&text=He was at times both,persuade authorities to arrest Smith.

I wonder what would cause Phelps to campaign so vigorously against the Masons?  Considering that Joseph Smith and others had no problem with joining the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge.  Do anybody on this board know the details?  @poptart?  @latterdaytemplar?

During that time there was a belief among some that there were two forms of Masonry, spurious and authentic. The former was thought to be a corruption of the latter (just as some Mormons assert that Masonry itself is a corruption of an ancient endowment). It's likely that Phelps eventually thought the Masonry he opposed to be of the spurious type and then few years later believing that Joseph Smith was able to recognize and expand the authentic Masonry.

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, the narrator said:

During that time there was a belief among some that there were two forms of Masonry, spurious and authentic. The former was thought to be a corruption of the latter (just as some Mormons assert that Masonry itself is a corruption of an ancient endowment). It's likely that Phelps eventually thought the Masonry he opposed to be of the spurious type and then few years later believing that Joseph Smith was able to recognize and expand the authentic Masonry.

I think you are definitely on to something, because at one time, LDS were discouraged from joining a lodge.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry#:~:text=Modern official LDS Church policy,-From 1925 to&text=Today there is no formal,Trinitarian belief of its members).

 The presidency of the LDS Church has not made an official statement as to whether Freemasonry is compatible with church membership. However, Don LeFevre, a past spokesman for the church has said the church "strongly advises its members not to affiliate with organizations that are secret, oath-bound, or would cause them to lose interest in church activities."^[10] A more tolerant statement is found in a book written by members of the church Encyclopedia of Mormonism, stating, "The philosophy and major tenets of Freemasonry are not fundamentally incompatible with the teaching, theology, and doctrines of the Latter-day Saints. Both emphasize morality, sacrifice, consecration, and service, and both condemn selfishness, sin, and greed. Furthermore, the aim of Masonic ritual is to instruct-to make truth available so that man can follow it."

Edited May 19, 2021 by Tacenda

[the narrator]

20 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think you are definitely on to something, because at one time, LDS were discouraged from joining a lodge.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_Freemasonry#:~:text=Modern official LDS Church policy,-From 1925 to&text=Today there is no formal,Trinitarian belief of its members).

 The presidency of the LDS Church has not made an official statement as to whether Freemasonry is compatible with church membership. However, Don LeFevre, a past spokesman for the church has said the church "strongly advises its members not to affiliate with organizations that are secret, oath-bound, or would cause them to lose interest in church activities."^[10] A more tolerant statement is found in a book written by members of the church Encyclopedia of Mormonism, stating, "The philosophy and major tenets of Freemasonry are not fundamentally incompatible with the teaching, theology, and doctrines of the Latter-day Saints. Both emphasize morality, sacrifice, consecration, and service, and both condemn selfishness, sin, and greed. Furthermore, the aim of Masonic ritual is to instruct-to make truth available so that man can follow it."

Without spoiling too much from this forthcoming volume, let me say there were probably tow main factors that led to Mormons being discouraged from becoming Masons:

1. Brigham Young rightly understood that Masons were part of the mob that killed Joseph Smith. Unbeknownst to Young, one of the reasons why some Masons wanted Joseph killed or at least stopped was because they feared that Joseph could possibly be elected president of a proposed national lodge, which would have given him significant authority and control Masonry across the country.

2. By the early 20th century, all of the Church leaders that had been become Masons in Nauvoo had passed away, and those that replaced them were ignorant of how important Masonry had been to Mormonism before Joseph's death.

[mfbukowski]

28 minutes ago, the narrator said:

. By the early 20th century, all of the Church leaders that had been become Masons in Nauvoo had passed away, and those that replaced them were ignorant of how important Masonry had been to Mormonism before Joseph's death.

The entire tendency for members to have a problem with the similarities between Masonry and LDS rites has always puzzled me, since it obviously was the case that nearly all the early leaders were Masons and clearly aware of the similarities.

If it didn't bother them, why should it bother us?

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The entire tendency for members to have a problem with the similarities between Masonry and LDS rites has always puzzled me, since it obviously was the case that nearly all the early leaders were Masons and clearly aware of the similarities.

If it didn't bother them, why should it bother us?

It bothers me, that I thought it came from God. Not from a fraternity of men or brick layers. That's a biggy to me. Since the temple is the end all be all to everything Mormonism. It's why someone would devote their entire lives to an organization. It's the glue that holds the church together and prevents church hopping. 

[ksfisher]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It bothers me, that I thought it came from God. Not from a fraternity of men or brick layers. That's a biggy to me. Since the temple is the end all be all to everything Mormonism. It's why someone would devote their entire lives to an organization. It's the glue that holds the church together and prevents church hopping. 

The temple teaches through symbols.  There is no reason why God could not instruct Joseph Smith to use symbols that he as already familiar with, but attach new meaning to them. 

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It bothers me, that I thought it came from God. Not from a fraternity of men or brick layers.

Could this be an instance where the receptacles that God had to work with were so malformed, whatever instruction he supplied was destined to become streaked with ugliness?

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The temple teaches through symbols.  There is no reason why God could not instruct Joseph Smith to use symbols that he as already familiar with, but attach new meaning to them. 

 

5 minutes ago, Chum said:

Could this be an instance where the receptacles that God had to work with were so malformed, whatever instruction he supplied was destined to become streaked with ugliness?

Well, I wish someone had told me this early on. 

[the narrator]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

The entire tendency for members to have a problem with the similarities between Masonry and LDS rites has always puzzled me, since it obviously was the case that nearly all the early leaders were Masons and clearly aware of the similarities.

If it didn't bother them, why should it bother us?

 

Because:

1. Joseph Smith and other Mormons of the time not only believed that Masonry was a corrupted (meaning parts had been lost, akin to their beliefs about the Bible) version of the Endowment, they also largely believed in all of the various Masonic legends about the ancient past, and that Joseph was the one to restore the lost parts of Masonry.

2. Latter-day Saints today generally do not believe this, nor should they; because Masonry originated four centuries ago, not seven millennia past. 

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 

Well, I wish someone had told me this early on. 

I realize my descriptors (malformed, ugly) come with harsh inferences but I didn't mean them that way. My intended vibe was imperfection, not condemnation.

sidebar:  I am not dismissing how socially acceptable flaws can still be a chronic source of ongoing damage.

[AtlanticMike]

10 minutes ago, the narrator said:

. Latter-day Saints today generally do not believe this, nor should they; because Masonry originated four centuries ago, not seven millennia past

I was always told it went all the way back to Solomon's Temple,  is there new information on this now? 

[the narrator]

r 

6 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I was always told it went all the way back to Solomon's Temple,  is there new information on this now? 

That's part of the Masonic tradition, but there is zero truth to it.

[ksfisher]

On 5/18/2021 at 9:51 PM, longview said:

I was surprised in reading this week's D&C lesson that William W. Phelps was a publisher of the anti-Masonic newspaper Ontario Phoenix through 1828.  Phelps was described by Dean Jessee as "one of [the] founders" of the anti-Masonic movement in New York.  He had been excommunicated THREE times but came back every time.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Phelps_(Mormon)#:~:text=William Wines Phelps (February 17,the Latter Day Saint movement.&text=He was at times both,persuade authorities to arrest Smith.

I wonder what would cause Phelps to campaign so vigorously against the Masons?  Considering that Joseph Smith and others had no problem with joining the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge.  Do anybody on this board know the details?  @poptart?  @latterdaytemplar?

Anti-Masonic Party

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Anti-Masonic Party, also known as the Anti-Masonic Movement, was the first third party in the United States.^[8] It strongly opposed Freemasonry as a single-issue party and later aspired to become a major party by expanding its platform to take positions on other issues. After emerging as a political force in the late 1820s, most of the Anti-Masonic Party's members joined the Whig Party in the 1830s and the party disappeared after 1838.

The party was founded in the aftermath of the disappearance of William Morgan, a former Mason who had ultimately become a prominent critic of the Masonic organization. Many believed that the Masons had murdered Morgan for speaking out against Masonry and subsequently many churches and other groups condemned Masonry. As many Masons were prominent businessmen and politicians, the backlash against the Masons was also a form of anti-elitism. The Anti-Masons purported that Masons posed a threat to American republicanism by secretly trying to take control of the government. Furthermore there was a strong fear that it was hostile to Christianity. Mass opposition to Masonry eventually coalesced into a political party. Before and during the presidency of John Quincy Adams, there was a period of political realignment. The Anti-Masons emerged as an important third-party alternative to Andrew Jackson's Democrats and Adams's National Republicans. In New York, the Anti-Masons supplanted the National Republicans as the primary opposition to the Democrats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Masonic_Party

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

bothers me, that I thought it came from God. Not from a fraternity of men or brick layers. That's a biggy to me.

Does it bother you that they use English instead of whatever language God uses?

Edited May 20, 2021 by Calm

[Teancum]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The entire tendency for members to have a problem with the similarities between Masonry and LDS rites has always puzzled me, since it obviously was the case that nearly all the early leaders were Masons and clearly aware of the similarities.

If it didn't bother them, why should it bother us?

Likely because they knew it was stolen from masonry.  And were in on it.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Teancum

[Jamie]

18 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Likely because they knew it was stolen from masonry.  And were in on it.

 

The restoration of the priesthood and all things pertaining to gospel ordinances includes gathering all the good that has ever been known before the good became corrupted.  Masonry is just one form of good in corrupt form, as a whole, with many elements of the good that are still useful.  Like the good involved in using symbols for ordinances while properly understood and applied.  The good use of a handshake as a symbol of acceptance, for example.  The Masons were not the first to use handshakes or symbols or to parse greater knowledge into smaller fragments.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Jamie

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, Jamie said:

The restoration of the priesthood and all things pertaining to gospel ordinances includes gathering all the good that has ever been known before the good became corrupted.  Masonry is just one form of good in corrupt form, as a whole, with many elements of the good that are still useful.  Like the good involved in using symbols for ordinances while properly understood and applied.  The good use of a handshake as a symbol of acceptance, for example.  The Masons were not the first to use handshakes or symbols or to parse greater knowledge into smaller fragments.

Masonry does not date back to any biblical times or the temple of Solomon. It is a middle ages construct.  There was no "priesthood" ordinances in Masonry.  None whatsoever. And Joseph simply stole things from Masonry and made adjustments and wow!  You now have the endowment.  Nothing special from God about it.