Freemasonry and the Church

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I had to try to learn before making a statement to put IMO before the statement if it was not a fact that I could prove. So was hoping you might have a link. But thanks for your quick answer. 

Yes, most people understand that asserting something is not actual evidence of that assertion.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Yes, most people understand that asserting something is not actual evidence of that assertion.

That seems to be becoming less and less clear to people these days.

[Jamie]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, I had to try to learn before making a statement to put IMO before the statement if it was not a fact that I could prove. So was hoping you might have a link. But thanks for your quick answer. 

Everything we say is our own opinion unless we say we are quoting someone else, and then we are quoting that person's opinion.  An opinion is not a bad thing. Everyone has an opinion and we use it when we say what we think. At least this is all my opinion.

[Jamie]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Yes, most people understand that asserting something is not actual evidence of that assertion.

But it is evidence of that assertion.  That is exactly what it is.  An assertion is a statement that something is what it is being said that it is.  If you want to know if the assertion is true, however, just look around and see if you can see if it is true.  Truth is what is, what exists, what is evident when you can see what is.  A person just needs to be able to see what is and that it is what it is to know what it is, and yet the truth is what is even if people don't know what something is./

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Everything we say is our own opinion unless we say we are quoting someone else,

That's not correct.  If I say to you that George Washington was the first president of the United States then I am making a statement of fact, not stating an opinion.  If you believe that I am in error or would like to know my source for that fact you should ask for a CFR.  That is what Tacenda did.  You made several statements that you phrased as facts.  She'd like to know your source for those facts.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Jamie said:

But it is evidence of that assertion.  That is exactly what it is.  An assertion is a statement that something is what it is being said that it is.  If you want to know if the assertion is true, however, just look around and see if you can see if it is true.  Truth is what is, what exists, what is evident when you can see what is.  A person just needs to be able to see what is and that it is what it is to know what it is, and yet the truth is what is even if people don't know what something is./

Read through this and like what it has to say. http://www.ashlar3.com/king-solomons-temple-and-freemasonry/

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

That's not correct.  If I say to you that George Washington was the first president of the United States then I am making a statement of fact, not stating an opinion.  If you believe that I am in error or would like to know my source for that fact you should ask for a CFR.  That is what Tacenda did.  You made several statements that you phrased as facts.  She'd like to know your source for those facts.

Don't encourage him. 

[Jamie]

Just now, ksfisher said:

That's not correct.  If I say to you that George Washington was the first president of the United States then I am making a statement of fact, not stating an opinion.  If you believe that I am in error or would like to know my source for that fact you should ask for a CFR.  That is what Tacenda did.  You made several statements that you phrased as facts.  She'd like to know your source for those facts.

I responded to Tacenda.  She now knows my reference as I stated what my reference is. Now it is up to her whether or not to believe what I said.  And the same goes for you, too, and I see that you disagreed with me. 

And I will still say that that anything someone says is a statement of their opinion even when they state what they think is a fact.  Any person's opinion may include facts as well as statements of truth. Facts and statements of truth do not negate opinions.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Don't encourage him. 

Sorry 🤦‍♂️

[AtlanticMike]

20 minutes ago, Jamie said:

A person just needs to be able to see what is and that it is what it is to know what it is, and yet the truth is what is even if people don't know what something is./

Dude I'm giving you an upvote just for the above sentence alone, i have no idea what it means, but I love it!!

    Also, throughout our life we encounter many "truths" that tend to fade and become falsehoods. Just part of life I suppose.

Edited May 21, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Jamie]

Just now, AtlanticMike said:

Dude I'm giving you an upvote just for this sentence alone, I love it!!

    Also, throughout our life we encounter many "truths" that tend to fade and become falsehoods. Just part of life I suppose.

While you may love it, and I'm glad that you do, some other people have and still would give me a hard time for making such statements.  Ah well.  What some people like some other people don't like.  Such is life.

[Jamie]

6 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Dude I'm giving you an upvote just for the above sentence alone, i have no idea what it means, but I love it!!

    Also, throughout our life we encounter many "truths" that tend to fade and become falsehoods. Just part of life I suppose.

Heh, no idea what it means, huh.  What if a Freemason said it?  Would you then know what it means?

Put simply, truth is what is.  Anything that is.  If it is, or exists, then it is true.  Not that it is necessarily good, or a good thing, but it is at least what it is.  Even if you don't know what it is.  It still is, in that it still exists.

[AtlanticMike]

17 minutes ago, Jamie said:

What if a Freemason said it?  Would you then know what it means?

Uhhhh, nope! I just liked the way you structured the sentence, I thought it was cool. 

17 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Put simply, truth is what is.  Anything that is.  If it is, or exists, then it is true.  Not that it is necessarily good, or a good thing, but it is at least what it is.  Even if you don't know what it is.  It still is, in that it still exists.

You lost me on this one brother. But I think I agree. Here's how I see it. Everyone, through their lived experiences have their own "truths" and we build our lives around those experiences. What you perceive as the truth in your daily life might be falsehoods to someone else. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

We do, but the temple is such a different place and we are instructed in ways that are so different than else where, that it would be difficult to pull off.

And, with symbolic teachings, everyone learns something different from the same symbol.

Personally, I even find the architecture of the Salt Lake temple instructive.  I've always found it highly symbolic that each new ordinance you are performing, and each new room during the endowment, is at a higher elevation than the previous.  I think this was even more clear in the original layout of the building.  I'm not hopeful that this will survive the new renovations.  It's something subtle and I doubt most people notice.

As of yesterday I got to experience an "own endowment" as a temple worker called in to help with a young sister called to a mission

We still go from room to room, one physically higher than the other, though the new presentation could clearly all be presented in one room.

There are full subtitles also now, and - read between the lines- none of the patrons are physically touched- no shaking hands for example, until the veil ceremony which is completely normal, thus satisfying any ordinance requirements which were satisfied earlier by different means.

And this was started BEFORE covid!!

Another evidence of Pres. Nelson's prophethood!

I was told that this might remain permanently, and even with a large group, it would ensure a uniform time period for completion of a session, so they could be scheduled very precisely. 

10 minutes in, 10 minutes out, cleaning etc, and another session could start with precise timing even with 100 patrons.  (In LA that is even a possibility-I have seen it before!)

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Jamie said:

But it is evidence of that assertion.  That is exactly what it is.  An assertion is a statement that something is what it is being said that it is.  If you want to know if the assertion is true, however, just look around and see if you can see if it is true.  Truth is what is, what exists, what is evident when you can see what is.  A person just needs to be able to see what is and that it is what it is to know what it is, and yet the truth is what is even if people don't know what something is./

Just fyi, philosophically that statement is very... ambiguous.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

You are talking to Ahab. He tends to be an outlier on a number of his ideas. 

We are beginning to see already.  Man am I dense!

Edited May 21, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Jamie]

51 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Uhhhh, nope! I just liked the way you structured the sentence, I thought it was cool. 

You lost me on this one brother. But I think I agree. Here's how I see it. Everyone, through their lived experiences have their own "truths" and we build our lives around those experiences. What you perceive as the truth in your daily life might be falsehoods to someone else. 

I like you because I like your general attitude.  I even like how you disagree with me.  I would just change what you quoted as "truths" to the word "perceptions" because I see perceptions as not necessarily truths even though they may be perceived as truths. Like how something may not be what someone else may think it is.  The truth is whatever it is regardless of what someone may think it is.  A cat is a cat even if someone may think a cat is a dog, for example.  And that goes for apples and oranges too.  And as to whether or not Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God.  I say he was when he was and not when he was not acting like one.  I think that is what he would say, and also said, too. 

[Jamie]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We are beginning to see already.  Man am I dense!

I like a man who can admit he is dense, and I like you a little bit too.

[AtlanticMike]

8 minutes ago, Jamie said:

I would just change what you quoted as "truths" to the word "perceptions" because I see perceptions as not necessarily truths even though they may be perceived as truths.

Ahhhh, I knew you were going to say that. What I'm talking about is lived truths, for instance, when we stand up and bear Our Testimony in church, do we say, " it's my perception the church is true?" Nope! Because our lived truth is that the church is true, even though 7 billion people would probably disagree with us. We don't live long enough on Earth to understand what truth really is.

[Jamie]

18 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Ahhhh, I knew you were going to say that. What I'm talking about is lived truths, for instance, when we stand up and bear Our Testimony in church, do we say, " it's my perception the church is true?" Nope! Because our lived truth is that the church is true, even though 7 billion people would probably disagree with us. We don't live long enough on Earth to understand what truth really is.

I've lived long enough to know the Church is true even though even though a lot of other people don't know it, or they deny it. I'm still not sure why some people deny it, though.  Is it because they don't know it or because they don't want to admit it?

It is totally obvious that the Church is true.  It just is.  Because it is what it is.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Jamie said:

I like a man who can admit he is dense, and I like you a little bit too.

You're misbehaving again.  😜

[Tacenda]

If Joseph Smith used masonry as a vehicle for the temple, could he have used the View of the Hebrews for the BoM? According to statements by BH Roberts he may have. 

[jkwilliams]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If Joseph Smith used masonry as a vehicle for the temple, could he have used the View of the Hebrews for the BoM? According to statements by BH Roberts he may have. 

All he needed, IMO, was a general knowledge of local moundbuilder mythology and fairly good grounding in the Bible. The Book of Mormon certainly doesn't reflect a familiarity with ancient Mesoamerica.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If Joseph Smith used masonry as a vehicle for the temple, could he have used the View of the Hebrews for the BoM? According to statements by BH Roberts he may have. 

Seriously, why is this relevant to you?

Do you care about, say, the sources other leaders use to generate their ideologies or religious views, and accept their theories based on who their sources were, rather than the content of the theory?

Many today accept Marxist theories without even knowing they come from Marx.

Does it matter? 

Let's not make it political, of course.

Do we accept the value of a composer's music on those who influenced them?

Yes a Prophets word supposedly come from God, but who is the judge of whether or not it WAS "from God?"

How does one find that out using reason?

If there are no rational ways, we must make our own decisions based on our own hearts.

It's like selecting a political party- we go with what seems right in our "gut", or what the "spirit" tells us.

If Joseph was inspired by masonry it is irrelevant to his conclusions.

He thought in a different "language" than we do now, but what us important was WHAT he thought, not his sources.

[Jamie]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

If Joseph Smith used masonry as a vehicle for the temple, could he have used the View of the Hebrews for the BoM? According to statements by BH Roberts he may have. 

Or if God inspired Joseph Smith to write/translate the Book of Mormon could God or Satan have inspired Ethan Smith to write the book View of the Hebrews.  I like these what if games.  What if Native Americans really are related to some old Hebrews?