Jump to content

When did Moses' first Temple/ Temple-like ordinances occur, pre- or post-Tabernacle?


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks for your wonderfully sensitive description of temple workers. Sexism and racism are anathema but ageism is funny?

I hope you live long enough to get some wisdom, but few do. I find this truly insulting and highly offensive if you could not get the drift.

That displays your level of discourse

 

I can honestly say that you are the very first person I have ever met to actually get offended at such a comment. 
 

That being said, I will weigh my words more carefully in the future.

Link to comment
19 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That is the million dollar question.

"A different kind of perfection".  That's a new one.

The first question was to get your opinion; the second was more rhetorical. I think the Lord's fulfillment of His part of the covenant (the blessings of Abraham, first established with Adam) does not change from dispensation to dispensation, and that the covenants kept within any given dispensation will lead to His fulfilling His part of the covenant.

Link to comment
5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And then we have the Hindu annointing of the stone lingam

Any ideas on that connection?

Gotta be Egyptian I guess.

More likely merely one element of Lehi’s Cosmology (Law of Opposition of All Things), which can also be seen in the red and blue center of the South Korean flag, the TaeGuk (Chinese T’ai Chi):

image.png.6b5ea8f674b5c61fd2b7b172960bfbeb.png

The two tadpoles symbolize the dual forces of nature, the yang and yin respectively.  Together they represent the perpetually changing opposite yet complementary forces or principles embodied in all aspects of life: light and darkness, good and evil, active and passive, masculine and feminine. The head of each tadpole represents the beginning of all things and the tail section represents the end, so that where the yang begins, the yin disappears and vice versa.

The Wikipedia entry on “Yin and yang,” properly states “how obviously opposite or contrary forces may actually be complementary, interconnected, and interdependent in the natural world, and how they may give rise to each other as they interrelate to one another.”  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang .

(Jana Riess, pay attention)

Indeed, as Lehi himself observes:

Quote

it must needs be that there is an opposition in all things[1]

if not so....

righteousness could not be brought to pass

neither wickedness neither holiness

nor miseary neither good nor bad[2]

wherefore all things must needs be a compound[3] in one

wherefore if it should be one body

it must needs remain as dead

haveing no life neither death[4]

nor corruption nor incorruption[5]

happiness nor miseary[6]

neither sense nor insensibility

wherefore it must needs have been created for a thing of nought

wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation

wherefore this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of god and his eternal purposes[7]

and also the power and the mercy and the justice of god[8]

and if ye shall say there is no law

ye shall also say there is no sin[9]

and if ye shall say there is no sin

ye shall also say there is no righteousness

and if there be no righteousness

there be no happiness

and if there be no righteousness nor happiness

there be no punishment nor miseary

and if these things are not there is no god[10]

and if there is no god

we are not neither the earth

for there could have been no creation of things

neither to act nor to be acted upon

wherefore all things must have vanished away (II Nephi 2:11-13)

[1] cf Eccl 3:1-8, Mat 6:24, 11:17, 18:7, Alma 41:3-7, III Ne 13:24, Moroni 7:5-17; Empedocles B 21:3-6; Aristotle, Metaphysics, I, 5, 986a.

[2] =II Sam 13:22, "neither good nor bad"; cf Alma 41:3-7, Moroni 7:6.

[3] contrast the positive evaluation of singularity in Empedocles B 22:5; Alcmaeon B 4; Heraclitus frags 22, 66, 98; Plato, Phaedo, 86b.

[4] cf Dt 30:19, Rev 2:8,10.

[5] cf I Cor 15:42,50,53-54;  IV Macc 17:12.

[6] cf Alma 41:4-5.

[7] =Eph 3:9-11, "created all things....the manifold wisdom of God, According  to the eternal purpose which he purposed"; cf Wisdom of Solomon 1:14-16, Rev 4:11.

[8] =Alma 42:22d.

[9] =Alma 42:20-21 ?Rom 5:13, "but sin is not imputed when there is no law" ? 4:15, "where no law is, there is no transgression"; cf 9:25, II Esdras 9:36-37 (IV Ezra), Rom 7:7-14, Gal 5:23, I Jn 3:4.

[10] cf Alma 42:13 now the work of justice could not be destroyed if so god would cease to be god

Edited by Robert F. Smith
Link to comment
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

The first question was to get your opinion; the second was more rhetorical. I think the Lord's fulfillment of His part of the covenant (the blessings of Abraham, first established with Adam) does not change from dispensation to dispensation, and that the covenants kept within any given dispensation will lead to His fulfilling His part of the covenant.

Except that the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant does not require any complementary human action.

Link to comment
On 3/6/2022 at 9:14 PM, JLHPROF said:

You always provide the most interesting information.  But I have to ask.  When you make statements like the bold do you believe the law of Moses came by revelation from God or was just adapted from the surrounding cultures?

Like priesthood organization.  Did the Egyptians get it from Abraham or Joseph? Was it actually a dispensation to Moses?

Scripture is an INSPIRED INTERPRETATION of culture and language. All of the parables of Jesus come out of his culture, and he interprets them and teaches them as spiritual lessons.

We may not have people injured by the roadside, but we do have homeless people whom we should treat as the Good Samaritan did.

Did Jesus really make water into wine so the party could get drunker, violating the word of wisdom?

Why did Jesus single out business people and destroy their livelihoods by overturning their money changing tables? Weren't they just trying to earn a living?

Yet we understand these "historical" events as INSPIRED spiritual lessons, seeing them through spiritual eyes!

We take the surrounding cultures and interpret them spiritually.

That is how it has always been and always will be. 

The spiritual truths are eternal- the principles always work for humanity, yet each dispensation interprets them anew, for their own times.

 

Edited by mfbukowski
Link to comment
2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Except that somebody has to do the propagating!

Also, a less traditional view: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/abrahamic-covenant?lang=eng

Not so.  No human action of any kind is needed.  The unconditional Abrahamic Covenant is a guarantee, regardless of any human action.  There are other covenants which require human action.  The author of the LDS Church piece is unaware of these facts, and is unable to distinguish one covenant from another.

Link to comment
18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not so.  No human action of any kind is needed.  The unconditional Abrahamic Covenant is a guarantee, regardless of any human action.  There are other covenants which require human action.  The author of the LDS Church piece is unaware of these facts, and is unable to distinguish one covenant from another.

I was pointing out that Abraham (or a descendant) had to pick up and move to Canaan and propagate. Thus, the Church’s view is that there is no guaranteed, predestined rise of Zion in Israel, which is often extrapolated from the Abrahamic covenant.

But yes, God is able to raise up children unto Abraham of stones, and it may often be overlooked that it is only by His grace that Adam and Eve and their posterity have children in the first place. We live in God’s unconditionally promised probationary, telestial land (Abraham 3:24-26), which without the benefits of D&C 110 is to be wasted with an attendant glory in the resurrection.

Link to comment
4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I was pointing out that Abraham (or a descendant) had to pick up and move to Canaan and propagate. Thus, the Church’s view is that there is no guaranteed, predestined rise of Zion in Israel, which is often extrapolated from the Abrahamic covenant.

But yes, God is able to raise up children unto Abraham of stones, and it may often be overlooked that it is only by His grace that Adam and Eve and their posterity have children in the first place. We live in God’s unconditionally promised probationary, telestial land (Abraham 3:24-26), which without the benefits of D&C 110 is to be wasted with an attendant glory in the resurrection.

Our probationary state, which we agreed to in the Divine Council, is not part of the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant.  Nor is the Mosaic Covenant.  Nor is the rule repeatedly stated in the Book of Mormon that "Inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land; but inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from my presence."  Those are conditional covenants.  Emphasizing that notion, Jesus states repeatedly that we will all be judged according to our works.

Unlike all those conditional covenants, the Abrahamic Covenant is an absolute promise.  A guarantee.  No matter what any of us does, it holds forever.

The land of Canaan was promised to the seed of Abraham;  Abraham's seed will be multiplied and bless all nations of the earth; them that bless his seed will be blessed, while them that curse his seed will be cursed; etc.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Our probationary state, which we agreed to in the Divine Council, is not part of the unconditional Abrahamic Covenant.  Nor is the Mosaic Covenant.  Nor is the rule repeatedly stated in the Book of Mormon that "Inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land; but inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from my presence."  Those are conditional covenants.  Emphasizing that notion, Jesus states repeatedly that we will all be judged according to our works.

Unlike all those conditional covenants, the Abrahamic Covenant is an absolute promise.  A guarantee.  No matter what any of us does, it holds forever.

The land of Canaan was promised to the seed of Abraham;  Abraham's seed will be multiplied and bless all nations of the earth; them that bless his seed will be blessed, while them that curse his seed will be cursed; etc.

Where else does the Abrahamic covenant take place, if not in our probationary state? It holds, especially in the case of Canaan proper, until...

Link to comment
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Where else does the Abrahamic covenant take place, if not in our probationary state? It holds, especially in the case of Canaan proper, until...

There is another aspect.  Which is Eternal Increase.  Which is the "recruiting" of intelligences to become spirit children and to enter into the First Estate.  Which leads to presiding in Celestial Realms after qualification of faithful completion of the Second Estate.

Even people who do not marry or couples that remain childless can attain Eternal Increase in the next world.  God is just and ever faithful.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Where else does the Abrahamic covenant take place, if not in our probationary state? It holds, especially in the case of Canaan proper, until...

You are deeply confused.  There are two kinds of covenants (contracts, treaties):  conditional and unconditional.  The conditional covenants have conditions attached to them.  The unconditional ones do not.  The conditional covenants are between two or more parties.  The unconditional covenant is a unilateral grant from one party -- God in the case of the Abrahamic covenant.  Humans cannot fail an unconditional covenant, while they manage to fail conditional covenants all the time, then repent, etc.  Our probationary state is a test, which we can fail and end up in Outer Darkness with Satan.  Our probationary state precedes the Abrahamic Covenant.

The fact that the Abrahamic Covenant takes place on planet Earth does not mean that it covers any and all things.  It is limited and specific.  Read the contract.

Link to comment
14 hours ago, longview said:

There is another aspect.  Which is Eternal Increase.  Which is the "recruiting" of intelligences to become spirit children and to enter into the First Estate.  Which leads to presiding in Celestial Realms after qualification of faithful completion of the Second Estate.

Even people who do not marry or couples that remain childless can attain Eternal Increase in the next world.  God is just and ever faithful.

Yes. Where there are layers of meaning in the promise or differences in timing or glory of realization (this world, the next, the pervious one; telestial, terrestrial and celestials worlds -- figuratively and literally), it is of necessity conditional.

Link to comment
14 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are deeply confused.  There are two kinds of covenants (contracts, treaties):  conditional and unconditional.  The conditional covenants have conditions attached to them.  The unconditional ones do not.  The conditional covenants are between two or more parties.  The unconditional covenant is a unilateral grant from one party -- God in the case of the Abrahamic covenant.  Humans cannot fail an unconditional covenant, while they manage to fail conditional covenants all the time, then repent, etc.  Our probationary state is a test, which we can fail and end up in Outer Darkness with Satan.  Our probationary state precedes the Abrahamic Covenant.

The fact that the Abrahamic Covenant takes place on planet Earth does not mean that it covers any and all things.  It is limited and specific.  Read the contract.

I am comfortable looking at it from both perspectives. As you say, it is limited and specific, so in that sense it is conditional, pertinent only to the relevant limits an specifics at hand.

Link to comment
On 3/7/2022 at 4:06 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Nibley laid out the nature of that set of ordinances in his The Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri: An Egyptian Endowment, which is available in a second edition.  The ancient Egyptian endowment is pretty much the same as the one we Latter-day Saints are familiar with in our temples.

Awesome. Read that book too long ago, didn't understand all of it but if I understand your answer, one of the following occured:

1. Moses before age 40 progressed in the Egyptian faith and ordinances but without the preisthood. After Jethro gave him the preisthood, the Burning Bush, Mt. Sinai were where Moses recieved his Temple ordinances

2. Moses before age 40 progressed in the Egyptian faith and ordinances but with the preisthood from Egyptain Hebrews

Sorry if I'm missing something

 

Link to comment
On 3/6/2022 at 10:12 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

One special feature of Israelite cult was that it copied so much of Egyptian religious ritual, from the architecture of the tabernacle (tent of meeting) to the terminology for the utinsels, priesthood organization, etc.  That was no accident.

Ah yes but did how much of that did the Egyptians get from Abraham? I remember reading (Nibley?) about how Abraham taught the Egyptians astronomy but I imagine it was more collaborative like he and they taught each other.

Or do you (as I do) subscribe to the "Adam and Eve taught their children the truth. Over time thier children moved away, and over geenratiosn tweaked the gospel they were taught. So that's why there's unexpected similarities among ancient religions incl. Hinduism and Buddhism)" theory?

Link to comment
49 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Ah yes but did how much of that did the Egyptians get from Abraham? I remember reading (Nibley?) about how Abraham taught the Egyptians astronomy but I imagine it was more collaborative like he and they taught each other.

Or do you (as I do) subscribe to the "Adam and Eve taught their children the truth. Over time thier children moved away, and over geenratiosn tweaked the gospel they were taught. So that's why there's unexpected similarities among ancient religions incl. Hinduism and Buddhism)" theory?

Yes.  Hugh Nibley, William Albright, Mircea Eliade, and Joseph Campbell all taught the essential unity of human culture and symbolism.  The outward expression can be different, but the foundation is the same.

As to Abraham, bear in mind that Mesopotamian astronomy and math were far more advanced then than the Egyptians.  They would have had little to teach him.  Indeed, in Abe's day the Mesopotamians were doing quadratic equations --  long before the Classical Greeks.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

.........................

2. Moses before age 40 progressed in the Egyptian faith and ordinances but with the preisthood from Egyptain Hebrews..............

It wasn't until the Exodus that the tribe of Levi was selected as the priestly tribe, and Aaron made chief priest.  Before that the standard Egyptian temple sequence would have been the most familiar to Israelites -- and you can see from Nibley's table of contents that the standard LDS endowment sequence is the Egyptian sequence.  Not surprisingly, the Bible also has the same sequence.  It just isn't labeled as such.  Only those who already know it can see it.  Nibley then goes on to trace it in other cultures in the Appendix to his Joseph Smith Papyri.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I am comfortable looking at it from both perspectives. As you say, it is limited and specific, so in that sense it is conditional, pertinent only to the relevant limits an specifics at hand.

You are misusing the terminology used by archeologists and historians, but suit yourself.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes. Where there are layers of meaning in the promise or differences in timing or glory of realization (this world, the next, the pervious one; telestial, terrestrial and celestials worlds -- figuratively and literally), it is of necessity conditional.

It has to be conditional.  God invited us to participate in mortal earth, a great and amazing testing laboratory.  He sent us here to prove our "trustworthiness".  Whether we will be faithful in being strictly honorable and truly loving in caring for the intelligences to participate in the next "Eternal Round" of the Plan of Happiness.

Since the universe is infinite and the number of intelligences is infinite, the "work" will NEVER end.  The Gods will continue in ever increasing dominions, generations upon generations.  Forever and forever.

Link to comment
30 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are misusing the terminology used by archeologists and historians, but suit yourself.

I wasn't recognizing / taking this as an archaeological or historical discussion. In such an instance. I would tend to ask questions and listen!

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

,

Dude - please teach my gospel doctrine class, and my seminary class, and the young men's class I attend

Do you have a podcast or something similar I can subscribe to?

Link to comment
6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Dude - please teach my gospel doctrine class, and my seminary class, and the young men's class I attend

Do you have a podcast or something similar I can subscribe to?

Have you checked out Ben Spackman’s stuff…doesn’t get into quite the same things as Robert here, but adds a lot of context.  He basically covers the lessons in his blog.

Edited by Calm
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...