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2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Masonry does not date back to any biblical times or the temple of Solomon. It is a middle ages construct.  There was no "priesthood" ordinances in Masonry.  None whatsoever. And Joseph simply stole things from Masonry and made adjustments and wow!  You now have the endowment.  Nothing special from God about it.

IOW, it was a vehicle he could use for the ordinances/covenants to be used in Mormonism. And I believe many other things in the church were taken from Masonry, like the Lion, The All Seeing Eye, Five Point Star, Beehive, etc. 

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4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 And I believe many other things in the church were taken from Masonry, like the Lion, The All Seeing Eye, Five Point Star, Beehive, etc. 

Perhaps you could research these symbols and see where the masons got them from.  For symbols to be useful they need to have meaning to the people who are using them.  If the meaning in already entrenched in that culture then what is represented by the symbol is easier to repurpose, understand, and remember. 

Edited by ksfisher
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On 5/20/2021 at 9:54 AM, ksfisher said:

The temple teaches through symbols.  There is no reason why God could not instruct Joseph Smith to use symbols that he as already familiar with, but attach new meaning to them. 

Words themselves are symbols, of different languages. Words REPRESENT IDEAS, SAME AS ANY SYMBOL! 

We don't judge philosophy by the symbolic characters of the language in which it is written, it's just that here we need to discover the meaning by the spirit.

We need to view the symbolic language Joseph presented by the spirit and seek to understand it. 

This is the exact same issue of "translation" found in all of Joseph's revelations, from the BOM to the BOA, and the re-write of selections of the bible, they were all revelations in which we see value by translation via the spirit.

Joseph saw Egyptian symbols and read a message in English.

Joseph saw "Nephite" letters as English as well.

Here it is our opportunity to see foreign symbols and derive their spiritual message!!

That is why the temple is supposedly restricted to those schooled in the gospel.

Perhaps we need better training for temple newbies.

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4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Perhaps you could research these symbols and see where the masons got them from.  For a symbol to be useful they need to have meaning to the people who are using them.  If the meaning in already entrenched in that culture them what is represented by the symbol is easier to repurpose, understand, and remember. 

There is actually evidence for that... there were clearly hand positions used to represent spiritual ideas including the V shape, the L shape etc.

How does a beggar beg? 

How do we signal for help without words?

Signify peaceful intent?

Contrast a higher place with a lower one without words?

The were part of the ELEMENTS which evolved over time

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Perhaps we need better training for temple newbies.

We do, but the temple is such a different place and we are instructed in ways that are so different than else where, that it would be difficult to pull off.

And, with symbolic teachings, everyone learns something different from the same symbol.

Personally, I even find the architecture of the Salt Lake temple instructive.  I've always found it highly symbolic that each new ordinance you are performing, and each new room during the endowment, is at a higher elevation than the previous.  I think this was even more clear in the original layout of the building.  I'm not hopeful that this will survive the new renovations.  It's something subtle and I doubt most people notice.

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4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Masonry does not date back to any biblical times or the temple of Solomon. It is a middle ages construct.  There was no "priesthood" ordinances in Masonry.  None whatsoever. And Joseph simply stole things from Masonry and made adjustments and wow!  You now have the endowment.  Nothing special from God about it.

I think you're talking about the Masonry that is also known as Freemasonry as it is generally understood now.  But all that Freemasonry is now... that knowledge, those symbols, those handshakes, those ordinances, those fraternal bonds of friendship, etc.. existed in other cultures and time periods of the ancient past, going all the way back to Adam and Eve, and even before that. and they had even greater knowledge than all of the modern Freemasons had when Joseph Smith and others saw what they had in the 19th century A.D.  Knowledge that was no longer known in the 14th century when the Freemasons established their 14th century organization while incorporating all of the knowledge they did have.  They could not know what they did not know then.  But Joseph was enabled to restore previously lost or forgotten knowledge through revelation he received from God, with God also inspiring Joseph to incorporate all of the good that they he saw in what Freemasons knew and did then. Handshakes were not invented by 14th century Freemasons, and they didn't invent the idea of using symbols in ordinances either.  And neither did Joseph Smith.  That stuff has been around literally forever.

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3 minutes ago, Jamie said:

I think you're talking about the Masonry that is also known as Freemasonry as it is generally understood now.  But all that Freemasonry is now... that knowledge, those symbols, those handshakes, those ordinances, those fraternal bonds of friendship, etc.. existed in other cultures and time periods of the ancient past, going all the way back to Adam and Eve, and even before that. and they had even greater knowledge than all of the modern Freemasons had when Joseph Smith and others saw what they had in the 19th century A.D.  Knowledge that was no longer known in the 14th century when the Freemasons established their 14th century organization while incorporating all of the knowledge they did have.  They could not know what they did not know then.  But Joseph was enabled to restore previously lost or forgotten knowledge through revelation he received from God, with God also inspiring Joseph to incorporate all of the good that they he saw in what Freemasons knew and did then. Handshakes were not invented by 14th century Freemasons, and they didn't invent the idea of using symbols in ordinances either.  And neither did Joseph Smith.  That stuff has been around literally forever.

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith borrowed and adapted Masonic ritual (which, as Teancum notes, date to the Middle Ages) for modern temple worship. He said he took truth wherever he found it. He was, clearly, a gifted syncretist. The important question is whether the syncretism was divinely inspired. That you'll have to answer for yourself.

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4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith borrowed and adapted Masonic ritual

You are talking to Ahab. He tends to be an outlier on a number of his ideas. 

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1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith borrowed and adapted Masonic ritual (which, as Teancum notes, date to the Middle Ages) for modern temple worship.

It's not.  If God inspired President Nelson to add the hokey-pokey to the endowment experience, and it taught us something about the gospel that we hadn't know before I'd be fine with that.  Well, maybe not the hokey-pokey, but you get what I mean.

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The important question is whether the syncretism was divinely inspired.

That would seem to be the real question.

 

In a way the question of masonic symbol usage in the temple is similar to the stones used by the Brother of Jared to light the barges in the Book of Ether.  Up until the moment the Lord touched the stones there was noting special about them.  They may have even been used for other things previously.  Maybe someone has used one as a paperweight (or papyrus or velum weight or whatever) in the past.  One might have been thrown at someone else in anger or used to kill a rabbit for dinner.  The were just stones until the Lord touched them.  After that they became instruments to provide light in the darkness. 

The same is true with the symbols used in the temple.  Whatever meaning they had in the past; good, bad, whatever, they became instruments that would provide millions of saints with light in a world filled with spiritual darkness the moment the Lord approved of their use in His temple.

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9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't understand why it's such a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith borrowed and adapted Masonic ritual (which, as Teancum notes, date to the Middle Ages) for modern temple worship. He said he took truth wherever he found it. He was, clearly, a gifted syncretist. The important question is whether the syncretism was divinely inspired. That you'll have to answer for yourself.

I don't think it is a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith included the good things he saw in other cultures and organizations while formalizing temple worship rituals with additional help by revelations from God .  Borrowed and adapted Masonic rituals?  I suppose that is somewhat correct but there was a lot more to it than that.  And I think labeling those rituals as Masonic rituals is a misleading, because Masons were not the ones who invented or came up with the original idea of them.  Other people used those symbols and had that knowledge long before Masons did.  You don't seem to know that but it is still true, nonetheless.

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Just now, Jamie said:

I don't think it is a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith included the good things he saw in other cultures and organizations while formalizing temple worship rituals with additional help by revelations from God .  Borrowed and adapted Masonic rituals?  I suppose that is somewhat correct but there was a lot more to it than that.  And I think labeling those rituals as Masonic rituals is a misleading, because Masons were not the ones who invented or came up with the original idea of them.  Other people used those symbols and had that knowledge long before Masons did.  You don't seem to know that but it is still true, nonetheless.

Vacuous assertion does not establish truth. 

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5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

It's not.  If God inspired President Nelson to add the hokey-pokey to the endowment experience, and it taught us something about the gospel that we hadn't know before I'd be fine with that.  Well, maybe not the hokey-pokey, but you get what I mean.

The hokey pokey is what it is all about.  Whether people know it or not.

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

In a way the question of masonic symbol usage in the temple is similar to the stones used by the Brother of Jared to light the barges in the Book of Ether.  Up until the moment the Lord touched the stones there was noting special about them.  They may have even been used for other things previously.  Maybe someone has used one as a paperweight (or papyrus or velum weight or whatever) in the past.  One might have been thrown at someone else in anger or used to kill a rabbit for dinner.  The were just stones until the Lord touched them.  After that they became instruments to provide light in the darkness. 

The same is true with the symbols used in the temple.  Whatever meaning they had in the past; good, bad, whatever, they became instruments that would provide millions of saints with light in a world filled with spiritual darkness the moment the Lord approved of their use in His temple.

I liked this part.

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27 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Oh, crap. I have Ahab on ignore. Thanks for the head's up.

“Ahab” got banned, but appears to see posting in here as an inalienable right as opposed to being a guest of the owner of the board, so he has been using a number of sock puppets...which are against board rules, so he gets banned again.  So if a new poster is posting frequently and sounds like Ahab, good chance it will be. 

Edited by Calm
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Just now, Calm said:

“Ahab” got banned, but appears to see posting in here as an inalienable right as opposed to being a guest of the owner of the board, so he has been using a number of sock puppets...which are against board rules, so he gets banned again. 

I don't have any sock puppets.  I use only one account, as most other people who post use only one account at a time.  You will never see another post from Ahab again.  Ahab got banned.  The I that is me is not Ahab.  Let Ahab rest in peace.

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4 minutes ago, Calm said:

“Ahab” got banned, but appears to see posting in here as an inalienable right as opposed to being a guest of the owner of the board, so he has been using a number of sock puppets...which are against board rules, so he gets banned again.  So if a new poster is posting frequently and sounds like Ahab, good chance it will be. 

It would be pretty hypocritical of me to condemn the use of a sockpuppet, but I am grateful I'm welcome here.

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21 minutes ago, Jamie said:

I don't think it is a big deal to acknowledge that Joseph Smith included the good things he saw in other cultures and organizations while formalizing temple worship rituals with additional help by revelations from God .  Borrowed and adapted Masonic rituals?  I suppose that is somewhat correct but there was a lot more to it than that.  And I think labeling those rituals as Masonic rituals is a misleading, because Masons were not the ones who invented or came up with the original idea of them.  Other people used those symbols and had that knowledge long before Masons did.  You don't seem to know that but it is still true, nonetheless.

CFR on the bold. :)

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1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I thought Jaime was a girl!

Ever watch Blue Bloods, the TV show?  I added the name Jamie to my repertoire of names in honor of Jamie Reagan.  I like to visualize Tom Selleck as my Father in heaven, the way he looks, I mean.

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3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

CFR on the bold. :)

God.  He had those ideas and used those rituals long before Masons did.  Or at least we believe that.  We believe God inspired the rituals and ordinances and covenants and fraternal bonds of friendship that are involved in his temple rituals.

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Just now, Jamie said:

God.  He had those ideas and used those rituals long before Masons did.  Or at least we believe that.  We believe God inspired the rituals and ordinances and covenants and fraternal bonds of friendship that are involved in his temple rituals.

Well, I had to try to learn before making a statement to put IMO before the statement if it was not a fact that I could prove. So was hoping you might have a link. But thanks for your quick answer. 

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