Christian Health Care Organization asks Latter-day Saints to leave

[bluebell]

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

Quote

 

“Latter-day Saint Ryan Baker has been a member of Samaritan Ministries for about two years. Just a few days ago, the Christian health care organization told him he would need to rethink his beliefs or leave.

As a community of Christians who help other Christians with their health care, our Guidelines require that all adult members are in agreement with Samaritan Ministries’ Statement of Faith in order to be members,” the Illinois-based organization said in an email to Baker.

The organization’s statement of faith is grounded in the Bible, while Latter-day Saints “historically … affirm additional scriptures as authoritative,” the letter continues. Those scriptures, as well as leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, have “denied at least some portion” of the organization’s statement of faith, the letter adds.

Baker, a Utah native now living in Alaska, said when he joined the organization he promised to attend church regularly; abstain from drugs, alcohol and extramarital sex; and abide by other requirements, but he didn’t recall any of his beliefs being contrary to the organization’s — nor did anyone flag his admission application.

“Had I known, I wouldn't have voluntarily signed up. But we knew a lot of other LDS people who had been in it and never had an issue,” he said.

Samaritan Ministries is a non-profit health care organization that allows members to help each other with medical expenses instead of using traditional health insurance. Each month, the members send their “share” to other members who need to pay for health care. When a member is in need, they can contact the organization and receive help directly from others in the organization.

“They've been great,” Baker said. “We feel like we've benefited from it, and we say we've benefited other people. We're happy to be a part of it. So we're a little taken aback by this.”

Baker said he received a call Friday from one of Samaritan Ministries’ “extremely diplomatic” pastoral care specialists tasked with contacting some Latter-day Saints involved in the organization. When Baker told him he wouldn’t have time to talk while at work, the specialist sent him the letter detailing the theological differences between Latter-day Saints and the organization’s statement of faith.

According to the letter, the Bible teaches that eternal life is a free gift granted by grace alone, while Latter-day Saints believe that, while resurrection is a free gift, exaltation is based on good “works” and adherence to commandments.

The statement of faith on the organization’s website, however, only requires members to “believe that all people have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory and can be saved from eternal death only through faith in Jesus Christ."

The letter also states that “Mormonism” does not accept “the triune God of the Bible” — the belief that God is three persons in one — but rather asserts that God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three separate and unique beings.

“I am not ignorant of the traditional differences between my church and certain other Christian denominations regarding what the Bible actually teaches regarding the nature of the Godhead, or the Trinity, or the triune God, but I never imagined that those differences, which intelligent and devout Christians have been discussing for centuries, would be grounds for being deemed inconsistent with the statement of faith,” Baker said.

“Are the differences … so significant that people whose conceptions of deity vary slightly can't cooperate in a practical and earthly endeavor such as sharing health care costs?”

Baker said he and his family would like to remain a part of the organization, and he hopes to help clarify what he says is a lack of understanding about the church and its beliefs.

“They provide wiggle room on certain areas, especially regarding tobacco use, but in this case, it seems like they want to take a very strict, hard line, definitionally, on what a Christian is,” he said.

Samaritan Ministries declined an interview but sent KSL.com a brief statement that cited the “Affordable Care Act’s requirement that members of health care sharing ministries share ‘a common set of religious beliefs.’”

 

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

[Maidservant]

In reading the last line of the articles, maybe they are less personally concerned about Baker's beliefs, as they are of the requirement that would allow them to continue the program at all if they had people that did not have a "common set". Sounds like the organization may be between a rock and a hard place, in any case.

[pogi]

It is kind of ironic when you consider the story this organization is named after.  The Good Samaritan gave care and service to someone who held different beliefs from himself.

[Scott Lloyd]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

I really can’t bring myself to fix any blame here. As a faith-based group, this organization has a right to set its own criteria for membership, and it is appropriate for it to do so. 

Maybe I’ve been around the block a bit more than some, but I think there’s an element of caveat emptor here. That is, those who would seek to affiliate with a group with an evangelical Christian bent should do so with their eyes wide open. In other words one should expect evangelicals to behave like evangelicals. 

[Tacenda]

Hopefully I'm not derailing here, but somehow this thread made me think of the Netflix documentary called, "The Family. After watching it scared the life out of me that there are people like this. Gives Christians a bad name, IMO. 

[Robert F. Smith]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

The LDS Church welfare and humanitarian aid system does not ask what someone's religious beliefs are when they need help.  Instead, we reach out and provide necessary aid in emergencies and in good times.  We give millions of dollars to Catholic Relief in Africa, we provide water wells and electricity to non-LDS villages and homes, we have job-finding services available to anyone, LDS or not; in SLC, we are the primary funding source for the huge efforts to help the homeless in the downtown area, even though the LDS name is not on any of those efforts; years ago, LDS donors saved the Presbyterian Westminster College in SLC -- a long-time anti-LDS institution.  We follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ, while they hate us and despitefully use us.

These "Samaritan" Ministries have ironically forgotten the story Jesus told about the good Samaritan who so freely gave aid and funds to help an injured and dying Jew (someone from a very different faith community who typically hated Samaritans).  Other so-called "Christian" groups and seminaries discriminate against LDS members, not allowing them to study at their institutions unless they convert to a fundamentalist "Christian" belief system.  So bigoted.  What happened to their claimed commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

[Robert F. Smith]

18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I really can’t bring myself to fix any blame here. As a faith-based group, this organization has a right to set its own criteria for membership, and it is appropriate for it to do so. 

Maybe I’ve been around the block a bit more than some, but I think there’s an element of caveat emptor here. That is, those who would seek to affiliate with a group with an evangelical Christian bent should do so with their eyes wide open. In other words one should expect evangelicals to behave like evangelicals. 

So true.  Yet, they claim to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  They even named their group "Samaritan Ministries."  What does that mean?

[The Nehor]

I find these faith-based health care groups dangerous. There is no guarantee of payment. Many of them are just not big enough to absorb catastrophic costs. If someone gets a very costly condition that costs six figures every year there is every incentive to pull the plug on them. The appeal process is usually run by the group itself and it is questionable whether courts will help you if you get in trouble with one.

If you are young and healthy it is ideal but then again, if you are young and healthy you can get cheap insurance anyways.

Edited September 19, 2019 by The Nehor

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

That is unfortunate, since it is “health care”. When I served aboard a Medivac Helicopter in the Army, the last three years were spent serving at Fort Benning, Georgia. Our primary duties were to provide medivac support for both the Airborne School, and Army Ranger Training. But, thankfully we were also tasked with civilian support for much of Georgia and East Alabama. When we were called to horrible car accidents, or life flights for children, including premature birth babies, no one cared about our individual beliefs, only the Red Cross on our aircraft, and the chance at life, our aircraft brought. I served as crew chief, but often assisted (very often) an Army Medic, who was also a member of my Bishopric. When we would go to a small town to pick up a premature birth baby, we first had to go to the nearest hospital and pick up two prenatal nurses, and an incubator for the baby. Once the baby was on the aircraft, we would fly to Atlanta to deliver the baby to Scottish Rite Hospital, or other qualified Locations. Once in the air and one the way, the two of us would often, look at the medical records to find a name, sometimes in the rush, we only had a last name. We would turn off communications to the pilots, but the nurses could still hear, and we would lay our hands on the incubator, and give the baby a Priesthood blessing. There was never a dry eye among any nurse, and no one ever objected to us doing so. We did this for a lot of babies, it was the greatest job I ever had. So, in a long way around, the point is that those who are sick, do not care who cares for them, nor do the hungry care who feeds them. After all, they are not looking for Spiritual guidance, well some my wish for prayer, they are just in need of qualified or willing people who can help, bind an open wound, or heal the hurt, or help them when they are in or at their most valuable state. 

My home sits about 18 miles down the road from the oldest Latter-day Saint (or now the site of it) chapel in the Southeast, that had a number of bullet holes in it over the 130+ years that it was still standing. I have been to it many times before it was taken down for a new building. About 60 miles North of my home is the “Joseph Standing Monument”, where one of our missionaries was shot and killed, due to religious intolerance in our Nation. As there are many of our people stretched across a Nation, founded on the principle of “Freedom of Religion”. Most of thes crimes went unpunished, but it would seem we still have a long way to go in earning the mutual respect, of those from other Faiths. 

[bsjkki]

Here is their statement of faith.

 

*We believe in the triune God of the Bible. He is one God Who is revealed in three distinct Persons—God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. GEN 1:26 | LUKE 1:35, 3:21-22 | 2 COR 13:14 | MATT 28:18-20 

*We believe Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, and continues to be such even after His resurrection—fully God and fully man. He was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins, was bodily resurrected on the third day, and now is seated in the heavens at the right hand of God the Father. ISA 7:14, 9:6 | MATT 1:22-23, 26:64 | MARK 16:19 | LUKE 24:38-40 | JOHN 1:1-2, 1:14, 1:29, 2:18-21, 5:18, 8:46 | ACTS 2:32-33 | 1 COR 15:3-4, 15:20-21 | 2 COR 5:21 | COL 1:15-20, 2:9 | HEB 1:1-4, 4:14-15, 7:26, 9:11-14, 10:10-12 | 1 PETER 2:22-24 | 1 JOHN 3:5 

*We believe that all people have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory and can be saved from eternal death only through faith in Jesus Christ, Whose atoning death and resurrection secures for us eternal life. JER 17:9 | JOHN 3:3, 14:6, 20:30-31 | ROM 3:9-11, 3:23, 5:12-21, 10:8-13 | EPH 2:8-9

I think the first point is the only one that has any issues for a member of our church. Personally I think their first and second points cause some cognitive dissonance. How is there “One God” and how would they also sit next to each other.

If they don’t want members of our church to join, whatever, just be clear about it.

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

The answer is No, they don't need to have the same beliefs to be able to help other people, financially speaking.  They're just making up their own rules to suit their own purposes, whatever those are.

I wouldn't worry about it and I wouldn't try too terribly hard to stay with that group if I was in it and they wanted me out of it.  There are other groups we can join to help other people.  They do not have a monopoly on anything, as far as I am aware

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

How is there “One God” and how would they also sit next to each other.

As three distinct Persons, there is no problem. 

There is, I believe, for Trinitarians a redefinition of Being due to the Infinite nature of  God, such that while we use being and persons interchangeably for humans, they are not equivalent for God.

Why they aren’t is not something I can explain. 

Any Trinitarian here can correct me please if I am incorrect. 

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

As three distinct Persons, there is no problem. 

There is, I believe, for Trinitarians a redefinition of Being due to the Infinite nature of  God, such that while we use being and persons interchangeably for humans, they are not equivalent for God.

Why they aren’t is not something I can explain. 

Any Trinitarian here can correct me please if I am incorrect. 

I am a convert from another Christian church and my previous understanding of God being one being while there are 3 separate persons who are that kind of being is pretty much the same understanding that I have now except that I am no longer so stubborn that I simply will not admit it and I can also now more clearly define what I believed even back then. 

The big glob one "being" thing that I had in mind back then is basically what I refer to now as as "kind" of being.  Not just one of those persons but "all" who are that kind of being.  And just as any "kind" of being is hard to describe except by pointing to one of those who is that kind of being, so too is God as a "kind" of being hard to describe without just pointing to one of those persons who is.  What is the "kind" of being that is a cat, for example.  How do you define it or describe it except by pointing to one of those things that we call a "cat".

And naturally since those kinds of Christians believe there are only 3 persons who are that kind of being, they balk and will continue to balk at the idea that there are more than 3 of those persons unless maybe, someday, they see for themselves that there are other persons who are that kind of being.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

Hopefully they will open up an ecumenical dialogue.

[Amulek]

Quote

Latter-day Saint Ryan Baker has been a member of Samaritan Ministries for about two years. Just a few days ago, the Christian health care organization told him he would need to rethink his beliefs or leave. [...]

He should be grateful they kicked him out. I'm part of the management team for our company that periodically reviews insurance benefits, and every couple of years someone brings one of these up as an option. Not all of them require a statement of faith, but they all require you to adhere to certain behaviors (e.g., no drinking, no smoking, etc.) which helps ensure that they are only 'covering' a relatively healthy population.

Which is really a good thing since they aren't actually insurance.

That is the absolute biggest thing to remember about any of these groups: they are NOT insurance.

If the company doesn't pay out, you are left completely on the hook for the entire costs of your care. If you're wanting to know why these plans sound too good to be true - that's a big part of it. 

Oh, and if you need an expensive diagnostic or other pricey treatment, be prepared for your health care provider to say something like, 'Sorry, if you don't have insurance coverage, we won't perform the procedure.' 

They also pretty much never cover pre-existing conditions - though some have a sort of buy-in you can take advantage of if you happen to be pregnant, but that's usually the only exception.

Have a congenital disease like Type 1 diabetes? You guessed it: not going to be covered. 

Oh, and speaking of diabetes, now would be a good time to point out that, since they aren't insurance, they don't cover prescriptions either.

I remember being on a tele-conference with a sales rep from one of these companies, and he said they usually recommend people buy their prescription drugs through someplace like goodrx. Thinking he would show us how trivial a concern ours was, he escaped out of his PowerPoint presentation and pulled up the website on his browser. He then asked us to suggest a prescription that we know someone from our company was using on a regular basis.

Me being...well, me, just couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer, so I suggested he look up the cost for Dornase Alfa (Pulmozyme). He was obviously not expecting what popped up on his screen, and it took everything I had to try and keep it together as this poor guy sputtered and spiraled out of control as he realized he was going to be losing the sale. That probably isn't something I should be proud of, but I'm apparently still imperfect enough that it still makes me smile when I think about it. 

 

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I remember being on a tele-conference with a sales rep from one of these companies, and he said they usually recommend people buy their prescription drugs through someplace like goodrx. Thinking he would show us how trivial a concern ours was, he escaped out of his PowerPoint presentation and pulled up the website on his browser. He then asked us to suggest a prescription that we know someone from our company was using on a regular basis.

Me being...well, me, just couldn't keep my mouth shut any longer, so I suggested he look up the cost for Dornase Alfa (Pulmozyme). He was obviously not expecting what popped up on his screen, and it took everything I had to try and keep it together as this poor guy sputtered and spiraled out of control as he realized he was going to be losing the sale. That probably isn't something I should be proud of, but I'm apparently still imperfect enough that it still makes me smile when I think about it. 

I like the cut of your jib.

[boblloyd91]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church welfare and humanitarian aid system does not ask what someone's religious beliefs are when they need help.  Instead, we reach out and provide necessary aid in emergencies and in good times.  We give millions of dollars to Catholic Relief in Africa, we provide water wells and electricity to non-LDS villages and homes, we have job-finding services available to anyone, LDS or not; in SLC, we are the primary funding source for the huge efforts to help the homeless in the downtown area, even though the LDS name is not on any of those efforts; years ago, LDS donors saved the Presbyterian Westminster College in SLC -- a long-time anti-LDS institution.  We follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ, while they hate us and despitefully use us.

These "Samaritan" Ministries have ironically forgotten the story Jesus told about the good Samaritan who so freely gave aid and funds to help an injured and dying Jew (someone from a very different faith community who typically hated Samaritans).  Other so-called "Christian" groups and seminaries discriminate against LDS members, not allowing them to study at their institutions unless they convert to a fundamentalist "Christian" belief system.  So bigoted.  What happened to their claimed commitment to the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Amen Robert! This is bigotry plain and simple. Sadly prejudice against the church is still an acceptable thing, even in our day and age.

[Storm Rider]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

I agree with you - the organization can set whatever rules they want regarding their membership. It is unfortunate that Baker has paid into the system for two years before the system decided Mormons are not really acceptable participants, but they make the rules. 

I checked out a similar organization. I would have had to contribute for one year (due to a pre-existing condition) before I would be able to have any expenses covered. If that is similar to this organization, it would seem appropriate that they reimburse Baker for his contributions that are not longer acceptable from Mormons. 

[sunstoned]

14 hours ago, bluebell said:

https://www.ksl.com/article/46640296/christian-health-care-organization-asks-latter-day-saints-to-rethink-their-beliefs-or-leave

I thought this was interesting.  The group obviously can set whatever membership requirements they wish, but I can see where Baker is coming from, in asking whether or not people need to all believe in the Trinity and Sola Scriptura to share health care costs.

I think this is sad that this is happening to this family.  The religious organization is practicing exclusion.  That is never good. Especially for a christian organization. It is also ironic that their name is taken from the parable that Christ used to model love and acceptance of others. 

[Thinking]

Am I the only one who has noticed that the last name of the man who is being discriminated against is Baker?

[Stargazer]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

According to the letter, the Bible teaches that eternal life is a free gift granted by grace alone, while Latter-day Saints believe that, while resurrection is a free gift, exaltation is based on good “works” and adherence to commandments.

Of course they get it wrong.  Exaltation is not the "eternal life" that they believe in.  Salvation from sin and free association with Christ (in the Terrestrial Kingdom) are by grace alone.  Their "eternal life" is not exaltation, because they don't believe in exaltation.  If you run the concept of exaltation as understood by the LDS, they will reject it out of hand as not possible.

But who cares.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

Am I the only one who has noticed that the last name of the man who is being discriminated against is Baker?

Well, I noticed it, but just as an incidental fact.  Is the surname Baker somehow ironic?  

[MorningStar]

It's their loss, but I guess they can include who they want. Pretty dumb they don't want more people chipping in who actually share a lot of the same values. 

[Avatar4321]

On 9/19/2019 at 10:46 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

So true.  Yet, they claim to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  They even named their group "Samaritan Ministries."  What does that mean?

Absolutely nothing sometimes

[alter idem]

On 9/19/2019 at 9:46 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

So true.  Yet, they claim to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  They even named their group "Samaritan Ministries."  What does that mean?

I don't know what they think it means, but to me, Jesus was pointing out that the Samaritan helped a man who wasn't of his faith and didn't share his beliefs.  It is ironic, IMO.