Bernard Gui Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Some churches that reopened have had to close down again. https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/498643-two-southern-churches-forced-to-reclose-after-leaders-and 1
Boanerges Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 19 hours ago, Tacenda said: I'll bet a few would rather stay at home. I watched a youtube of the famous tattoo girl, Al Fox Carraway, and she would rather have church at home. She's as LDS as you can get. I wondered how all of you active feel about this, sounds like Smac likes the idea. I know a lot of people need that social, I'm there with ya! But hopefully people are super careful. I like home church, and I'm not so sure my definition of "shortened" is the same as that of who will decide what shortened actually will be.
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted May 20, 2020 Popular Post Posted May 20, 2020 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: Leaving aside the virus issues I am a little surprised at how many are saying they prefer staying home for Church. It makes me wonder if I fully comprehend all the reasons the Church exists and my role in it. I can't help feel if people prefer worshipping at home over building the Kingdom if Satan is winning just a little in all this. I mean, what is the purpose in attending Church? I could sense that i would be one of those people who would really like home centered church from the get go. As a mom with a baby church often happened for me in the nursing room trying to get her to sleep for her nap or so distracted i could barely hear anything anyways. I had sweet moments where i could know my efforts were worth it. Like helping a friend find avenues of support while talking in the nursing room, or taking half the sacrament because that’s all we could get that day prepping the kiddo. Or tag teaming our calling with an active baby. But spiritually, before our calling, I wasn’t getting much in terms of spiritual feeding and direction for my life. home church equaled that. We enjoy the sacrament more, and our Sunday school discussion is always fulfilling And can often coincide with nap time. Lately we’ve reincorporated my little bro through FaceTime into our church to help him understand our religion in pursuit of deciding what he believes...so it’s led to missionary opportunities too. We’ve also had opportunity to serve through donations and once splitting sewing masks with a few women in the ward coordinated via tech. I would be lying if i said i prefer community church...and what’s been building is hardly satan. But both my husband and i have been talking about how we want to incorporate this experience when church starts up. Add that with an active virus that we’re still learning about and a very lovey huggy touchy ward and yeah...i’d prefer staying at home and may have to anyways considering the latino population in ut is disproportionately being hit (i attend a spanish-speaking ward). My daughter has a disorder that could lead to complications if she gets ill enough. I’m not willing to gamble her health for more sociality. i’ll go back to church when it’s appropriate and safe to do so. I do miss certain aspects (like checking in with friends, ward choir, etc). I believe it’s important in creating a zion society. But i agree with those that note something sweet and special about home church...and it’s really built my testimony that our home needs that to be the core place for gospel learning, supported by community experiences of church. with luv, BD 8
Tacenda Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: The most important work done in building the Kingdom is done in the home. I think many are finding it easier to have gospel experiences and teaching moments with their children in the home right now as many (but not all) of us have less to distract us. I think we should prefer and enjoy worshipping at home. The mantra of home based and church supported will not hold if the chapel is the center of our worship and instruction instead of a source of Priesthood keys, revelation, and supplemental help. At least until the patriarchal order comes back and then we may not need a chapel. I remember somewhere hearing that the need for temple work will be so great that we may need to use churches. So possibly wouldn't or couldn't this be the solution? If temple work is as important as everyone is saying?
pogi Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) So, I just learned that while orange risk areas (like SLC) limits group sizes to 20 max, apparently there is an exception for churches. That makes no sense to me. The Cathedral of the Madelin has opened up again and had 80 people attend mass at once in an orange risk area over the weekend in SLC. I am guessing a relatively large percentage of their congregants are Hispanic, which happens to be the #1 hardest hit community in the state BY FAR. Here we go... https://www.ksl.com/article/46755076/we-have-a-new-appreciation-the-cathedral-of-the-madeline-hosts-mass-once-again I so hope that our church practices more caution, especially as we have the benefit of being able to bless our own sacrament in the home. Edited May 20, 2020 by pogi 4
pogi Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 102 of 130 choristers of an Amsterdan Choir fell ill after just one performance. 4 people died as a consequence. In Skagit Valley Washington, one 2.5 hour rehersal infected 53 of the 60 singers of another choir. 3 hospitalized and 2 died. 59 of 78 members of the Berlin Cathedral Choir contracted the virus after a rehearsal in March. Those numbers are astounding! https://theconversation.com/a-song-in-your-heart-shouldnt-lead-to-an-infection-in-your-lungs-reasons-to-get-with-online-choirs-137705 Singing has long been known to spread some diseases like tuberculosis far better than even coughing. When you go back to church, how comfortable would you feel if the entire congregation all began forcefully coughing without covering their mouth for 2 to 3 minutes before each prayer and sacrament? Would you feel safe to attend in the middle of this pandemic? You should feel the same way about singing hymns. At least in Germany, no Latter-day Saint congregations will be singing. It has been banned there in religious services. I am glad that church choirs are not happening, but why did they stop there? I am really saddened that singing hymns and children's singing time is being left open as an option. I think we could still have a spiritual musical experience with instrumental numbers while the congregation read and meditated on the lyrics of the hymn being played. Edited May 20, 2020 by pogi 3
Tacenda Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, pogi said: So, I just learned that while orange risk areas (like SLC) limits group sizes to 20 max, apparently there is an exception for churches. That makes no sense to me. The Cathedral of the Madelin has opened up again and had 80 people attend mass at once in an orange risk area over the weekend in SLC. I am guessing a relatively large percentage of their congregants are Hispanic, which happens to be the #1 hardest hit community in the state BY FAR. Here we go... https://www.ksl.com/article/46755076/we-have-a-new-appreciation-the-cathedral-of-the-madeline-hosts-mass-once-again I so hope that our church practices more caution, especially as we have the benefit of being able to bless our own sacrament in the home. 6 minutes ago, pogi said: 102 of 130 choristers of an Amsterdan Choir fell ill after just one performance. 4 people died as a consequence. In Skagit Valley Washington, one 2.5 hour rehersal infected 53 of the 60 singers. 3 hospitalized and 2 died. 59 of 78 members of the Berlin Cathedral Choir contracted the virus after a rehearsal in March. Those numbers are astounding! https://theconversation.com/a-song-in-your-heart-shouldnt-lead-to-an-infection-in-your-lungs-reasons-to-get-with-online-choirs-137705 Singing has long been known to spread some diseases like tuberculosis far better than even coughing. When you go back to church, how comfortable would you feel if the entire congregation all began forcefully coughing without covering their mouth for 2 to 3 minutes before each prayer and sacrament? Would you feel safe to attend? You should feel the same way about singing hymns. At least in Germany, no Latter-day Saint congregations will be singing. It has been banned there in religious services. I am glad that church choirs are not happening, but why did they stop there? I am really saddened that singing hymns and children's singing time is being left open as an option. I think we could still have a spiritual musical experience with instrumental numbers while the congregation read and meditated on the lyrics of the hymn being played. Totally agree, why aren't we all able to sacrifice a little more? It's only been about 3 months right? Some old ward/neighbor friends want to go out to dinner at an in dining place. I have to be the bad guy and say I don't want to go unless it's outside. He is in a high position at IHC, and they are both healthcare workers, she's semi retired. I don't get it. Edited May 20, 2020 by Tacenda
The Nehor Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 15 hours ago, Peacefully said: Love this! She has to be from Texas, lol! I’m surprised she didn’t say “ bless your heart” to the lady, lol! Tennessee actually.
Peacefully Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 19 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Tennessee actually. T for Texas, T for Tennessee, lol!
amo Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Totally agree, why aren't we all able to sacrifice a little more? It's only been about 3 months right? Some old ward/neighbor friends want to go out to dinner at an in dining place. I have to be the bad guy and say I don't want to go unless it's outside. He is in a high position at IHC, and they are both healthcare workers, she's semi retired. I don't get it. "sacrifice"...? For us at home this hasn't been a sacrifice at all...! Nothing better than officiate the sacrament at home, and teach and be taught by/to the family... Now. mentioning this in 1 of our too many virtual leadership meetings, 1 of the attendees said "well, you have to understand that it ain't easy to stay home with the family 24/7..." I didn't say anything but maybe I should've, but then again I'm getting a bit tired of being the "party-pooper" .
amo Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 20 hours ago, Raingirl said: No one is stopping you from doing that. Not always that easy, unfortunately, callings and all that... 1
provoman Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 39 minutes ago, amo said: "sacrifice"...? For us at home this hasn't been a sacrifice at all...! Nothing better than officiate the sacrament at home, and teach and be taught by/to the family... Now. mentioning this in 1 of our too many virtual leadership meetings, 1 of the attendees said "well, you have to understand that it ain't easy to stay home with the family 24/7..." I didn't say anything but maybe I should've, but then again I'm getting a bit tired of being the "party-pooper" . not "easy to stay home with the family 24/7" is the type reasoning I fear will cloud judgement when considerating public Church services. As for being a party-popper, embrace it, and get a tshirt 1
MiserereNobis Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 5 hours ago, pogi said: So, I just learned that while orange risk areas (like SLC) limits group sizes to 20 max, apparently there is an exception for churches. That makes no sense to me. The Cathedral of the Madelin has opened up again and had 80 people attend mass at once in an orange risk area over the weekend in SLC. I am guessing a relatively large percentage of their congregants are Hispanic, which happens to be the #1 hardest hit community in the state BY FAR. Here we go... https://www.ksl.com/article/46755076/we-have-a-new-appreciation-the-cathedral-of-the-madeline-hosts-mass-once-again I so hope that our church practices more caution, especially as we have the benefit of being able to bless our own sacrament in the home. Us Catholics went through the bubonic plague... this is peanuts 4
InCognitus Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 5 hours ago, pogi said: 102 of 130 choristers of an Amsterdan Choir fell ill after just one performance. 4 people died as a consequence. In Skagit Valley Washington, one 2.5 hour rehersal infected 53 of the 60 singers of another choir. 3 hospitalized and 2 died. 59 of 78 members of the Berlin Cathedral Choir contracted the virus after a rehearsal in March. Those numbers are astounding! https://theconversation.com/a-song-in-your-heart-shouldnt-lead-to-an-infection-in-your-lungs-reasons-to-get-with-online-choirs-137705 Singing has long been known to spread some diseases like tuberculosis far better than even coughing. When you go back to church, how comfortable would you feel if the entire congregation all began forcefully coughing without covering their mouth for 2 to 3 minutes before each prayer and sacrament? Would you feel safe to attend in the middle of this pandemic? You should feel the same way about singing hymns. At least in Germany, no Latter-day Saint congregations will be singing. It has been banned there in religious services. I am glad that church choirs are not happening, but why did they stop there? I am really saddened that singing hymns and children's singing time is being left open as an option. I think we could still have a spiritual musical experience with instrumental numbers while the congregation read and meditated on the lyrics of the hymn being played. That's horrible. There's only one hymn that one can sing under those circumstances: "Sing We Now At Parting".
Raingirl Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 4 hours ago, amo said: Not always that easy, unfortunately, callings and all that... So much complaining.
alter idem Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 5 hours ago, amo said: Not always that easy, unfortunately, callings and all that... I don't think that's a problem. I'm certain that the Bishop would understand if a person said they did not want to risk coming back to church and would need to be released for now. There's nothing wrong looking out for one's own health and well-being. What bothers me is people who want to dictate to everyone else to live the same standard and worry to the same extent that they do. It's just too controlling. I support anyone's right to continue to stay home, after church meetings are allowed again. No one is forced to go to church, and if they are high risk, it would be wise for them to not return for a while, imo. But, if others feel it is not so much of a risk to them, or it is a risk they are comfortable with, let them do as they like. I'm high risk, so I'll make the decision for myself as to when I feel comfortable going back to church, but I don't presume to make that decision for others. 2
pogi Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 https://www.ksl.com/article/46755370/utah-area-presidency-approves-utah-latter-day-saint-wards-to-meet-again
provoman Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: https://www.ksl.com/article/46755370/utah-area-presidency-approves-utah-latter-day-saint-wards-to-meet-again and nearly 200 new cases in Utah reported today, with 192 reported yesterday
Calm Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, alter idem said: I don't think that's a problem. I'm certain that the Bishop would understand if a person said they did not want to risk coming back to church and would need to be released for now. There's nothing wrong looking out for one's own health and well-being. What bothers me is people who want to dictate to everyone else to live the same standard and worry to the same extent that they do. It's just too controlling. I support anyone's right to continue to stay home, after church meetings are allowed again. No one is forced to go to church, and if they are high risk, it would be wise for them to not return for a while, imo. But, if others feel it is not so much of a risk to them, or it is a risk they are comfortable with, let them do as they like. I'm high risk, so I'll make the decision for myself as to when I feel comfortable going back to church, but I don't presume to make that decision for others. The problem in my view are teachers that have high risk in their families, because if one family member gets infected, most likely the rest will. 2 out of 3 of my family are high risk. My husband intends to go back as soon as they open Primary. It is not easy to get Primary teachers, especially with two deep required. Plus I don't think it is wise combining them...I don't think there should be sharing time and everything should be sanitized between classes as well as chairs set as far apart as possible...but in small classrooms, no way will it be six feet and with many young kids they will not be sitting in their seat the whole time anyway. Without teachers no class, so there will be a lot of pressure to attend. Same for bishopric members and various presidencies. It is not as if there is one pastor and everyone else doesn't make a difference if they attend or not. I very much hope they just do Sacrament Meeting and with instrumental music only and continue with using tech for other meetings. I also hope they have ushers at the outside and chapel doors to open , don't allow hand shaking, and test temperature and oxygen saturation before they let anyone in. No one allowed in with any signs of sniffles or cough or their familiy even if they are convinced it is allergy for now. Edited May 20, 2020 by Calm 3
Calm Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, provoman said: and nearly 200 new cases in Utah reported today, with 192 reported yesterday In comparison to past numbers? I tried to find a chart yesterday for Utah, but just found individual counties...and not the one I live in. added: found a chart that had no deaths the day previous to the 8 new ones, plus the day before looking average and the two days before being low...so it could be a case of some of those lasting a few days longer than usual for whatever reason (maybe improving medical care, maybe they were stronger to begin with). There seems to be a slight increase last week. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/utah-coronavirus-cases.html#cases Edited May 20, 2020 by Calm
alter idem Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 23 hours ago, CA Steve said: I agree. Singing is a wonderful thing! But the problem is we do not live in the same world where singing was a normal everyday event that people did. We now live in a world where the louder one talks (or sings) the more effort they are using to expel air from their airways, which in turns means that they are projecting further from themselves their own respiratory emissions. In other words, yelling (or singing) increases the chance to infect those in the same area. The most dangerous areas one can be in is in a crowded confined area in which people have to raise their voices to speak I am with Bob on this, church in the pews needs to wait until we have a vaccine. There are so many out there who will see the approbation by the chuch of what local leaders do as divine assurance that it is safe to go back to the pews. This is really a bad idea. It's unreasonable to think that a vaccine must be developed before we can go back to church. There are no guarantees that a vaccine will ever be developed and no idea how long it will take, and there are plenty of contagious illnesses, for which there is no vaccine, which you could be infected with, just by being out among other people.
Calm Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 16 minutes ago, pogi said: https://www.ksl.com/article/46755370/utah-area-presidency-approves-utah-latter-day-saint-wards-to-meet-again Quote The use of hymnbooks and printed programs should also be discontinued, for the time being, the guidelines say. Which implies there will be singing...sigh. 1
alter idem Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Calm said: The problem in my view are teachers that have high risk in their families, because if one family member gets infected, most likely the rest will. 2 out of 3 of my family are high risk. My husband intends to go back as soon as they open Primary. It is not easy to get Primary teachers, especially with two deep required. Plus I don't think it is wise combining them...I don't think their should be sharing time and everything should be sanitized between classes as well as chairs set as far apart as possible...but in small classrooms, no way will it be six feet and with many young kids they will not be sitting in their seat the whole time anyway. Without teachers no class, so there will be a lot of pressure to attend. Same for bishopric members and various presidencies. It is not as if there is one pastor and everyone else doesn't make a difference if they attend or not. I very much hope they just do Sacrament Meeting and with instrumental music only and continue with using tech for other meetings. I also hope they have ushers at the outside and chapel doors to open , don't allow hand shaking, and test temperature and oxygen saturation before they let anyone in. No one allowed in with any signs of sniffles or cough or their familiy even if they are convinced it is allergy for now. I think every family is obligated to decide for themselves, to consider their own situation, regardless of what others are doing. Personally, I don't think they should hold primary for awhile, just concentrate on getting Sacrament meeting up again, when we are able to hold meetings again. But, when they do, your husband should consider your health risks before making any decisions about going back to teach primary, no matter how hard it is to get teachers. My niece spent a month living at her mother's house with her baby because her husband felt he was too vulnerable to getting the illness at his work. He was able to get a six month leave of absence, then isolated for 14 days before she and baby came home. It's important to take the necessary precautions. In some areas, where they had no cases of Covid, they may be able to open up sooner, but in other places, they ought to wait. And my own feeling is that members of the ward should voice their concerns to their Bishopric, and if they are not comfortable going back yet, then they should stay home, and ask to be released if they have a calling they cannot fulfill while at home. Also, if they live in an area where the members are maybe not very smart or careful about passing along illnesses, then they should take that into consideration and avoid church meetings. One thing that gives me confidence in the decisions made by the church is that Pres. Nelson was a heart surgeon. He has a much better understanding of communicable diseases and their dangers than the majority of people/media etc. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Highly civilized Sweden now has the highest per capita death rate in the world from COVID-19. https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/sweden-recorded-most-coronavirus-deaths-062257755.html And they were so proud that they didn't bother to have a lockdown. I thought that the Swedes were known for having such a disciplined society. What happened?
Duncan Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Our limit is 25 for indoors, which TBH I wouldn't mind, just do the sacrament have a talk or two and out the door 1
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