We're Headed Back to Church! Sorta.

[pogi]

52 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I just do not understand this hysteria we seem to have over this issue?  

If you could do my job for 1 week, you'd understand.  For example, one of my patients had a runny nose (that's it!) and visited her aunt who was dying of cancer.  18 members of her extended family were at her aunts house at the same time to say their good-byes.  Her aunt died of cancer a couple days later.  That is just the beginning of the sad story.  1 week later - all 18 people...yes, ALL 18! tested positive for Covid, or were symptomatic and didn't want to be tested. About 1 week after that, her uncle (the husband of the aunt who just died of cancer) was hospitalized and placed on a ventilator due to Covid.   I see these kinds of sad stories almost weekly.  This is so terribly contagious, it's almost hard to believe.  While most fare well and have mild to moderate symptoms, others suffer terribly.   I can't tell you how many people I speak with express remorse and deep guilt for not being more careful and following simple precautions which led to their friends, family, or loved ones being infected, hospitalized, or dying.  This poor girl was the first symptomatic case in her family, she now carries the guilt of infecting her entire extended family and feels responsible for uncle's condition who was intubated right after loosing his wife.   This is an especially sad story, but I see stuff like this all the time. 

We are approaching 100,000 deaths in the US, with no end in sight (as a whole).  No treatment, no vaccine, with cities and churches opening up and fall weather just a few months away, there is mountains of suffering still ahead.  I personally don't see a lot of hysteria - I see a lot of concern and precautions being taken for good reason. 

[CA Steve]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

  For example, one of my patients had a runny nose (that's it!) and visited her aunt who was dying of cancer.  18 members of her extended family were at her aunts house at the same time to say their good-byes.  Her aunt died of cancer a couple days later.  That is just the beginning of the sad story.  1 week later - all 18 people...yes, ALL 18! tested positive for Covid, or were symptomatic and didn't want to be tested. About 1 week after that, her uncle (the husband of the aunt who just died of cancer) was hospitalized and placed on a ventilator due to Covid.   I see these kinds of sad stories almost weekly.  This is so terribly contagious, it's almost hard to believe.  While most fare well and have mild to moderate symptoms, others suffer terribly.   I can't tell you how many people I speak with express remorse and deep guilt for not being more careful and following simple precautions which led to their friends, family, or loved ones being infected, hospitalized, or dying.  This poor girl was the first symptomatic case in her family, she now carries the guilt of infecting her entire extended family and feels responsible for uncle's condition who was intubated right after loosing his wife.   This is an especially sad story, but I see stuff like this all the time. 

We are approaching 100,000 deaths in the US, with no end in sight (as a whole).  No treatment, no vaccine, with cities and churches opening up and fall weather just a few months away, there is mountains of suffering still ahead.  I personally don't see a lot of hysteria - I see a lot of concern and precautions being taken for good reason. 

My DIL is an ER nurse in Georgia. Her job is to stop people at the ER entrance and screen them for Covid. She literally has open sores on her face from having to wear a full face mask for her 12 hour shift. Instead of intubating 1 or two people a week they are doing several a day, of all ages. The other day she showed up for work and they handed her a plastic picnic table cloth with two holes torn in it for he personal protection gown. My wife who has brain cancer needed a resection for her latest tumor, we were told it was an elective surgery and would need to be put off, an operation without which she would die in a couple of months was being labeled "elective". After much pleading we were barley able to get her the operation. And people are asking why the hysteria? Sheesh!!!

I was greatly impressed by how quickly the church moved to shut down meetings. They did not wait for governments to make decisions to do that. They also quickly moved to protect our missionaries and temple workers.  It is unfortunate they are not following the same thinking now. Opening up meeting houses based on the local  widely differing and mostly uninformed recommendations of officials is a really bad idea. Sitting inside a physical building to worship is simply not that important.

Edited May 19, 2020 by CA Steve

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

My DIL is an ER nurse in Georgia. Her job is to stop people at the ER entrance and screen them for Covid. She literally has open sores on her face from having to wear a full face mask for her 12 hour shift. Instead of intubating 1 or two people a week they are doing almost several a day, of all ages. The other day she showed up for work and they handed her a plastic picnic table cloth with two holes torn in it for he personal protection gown. My wife who has brain cancer needed a resection for her latest tumor, we were told it was an elective surgery and would need to be put off, an operation without which she would die in a couple of months was being labeled "elective". And people are asking why the hysteria? Sheesh!!!

I was greatly impressed by how quickly the church moved to shut down meetings. They did not wait for governments to make decisions to do that. They also quickly moved to protect our missionaries and temple workers.  It is unfortunate they are not following the same thinking now. Opening up meeting houses based on the local  widely differing and mostly uninformed recommendations of officials is a really bad idea. Sitting inside a physical building to worship is simply not that important.

I agree.  Hopefully Nehor is right that we will get better news locally, and that this news will more immediately affect places like New Zealand. 

[pogi]

A cautionary tale:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/disastrous-arkansas-covid-cluster-spells-trouble-for-church-openings/ar-BB14jHM3?ocid=spartanntp

This will happen here too.  I have seen this virus rage through over 100 employees of a call center where they were practicing strict social distancing and leaving an empty desk between employees (and they weren't even singing hymns!), in a matter of a few weeks.  Our congregations wont be spared, despite what our local governments claim is an okay group size. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by pogi

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

A cautionary tale:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/disastrous-arkansas-covid-cluster-spells-trouble-for-church-openings/ar-BB14jHM3?ocid=spartanntp

This will happen here too.  I have seen this virus rage through over 100 employees of a call center where they were practicing strict social distancing and leaving an empty desk between employees (and they weren't even singing hymns!), in a matter of a few weeks.  Our congregations wont be spared, despite what our local governments claim is an okay group size. 

The problem with the six feet social distancing guideline is that distance is unlikely to work over long periods of time spent in the same environment. For incidental walking by each other in the street the distance is good and mitigates the spread but sitting in the same indoor room all day six feet apart is not that good of a shield. Better than being two feet apart but a lot of the rules are guesswork and just general practice.

There is a lot of paranoid fear about specific things while others are ignored. I like this nurse's account of a grocery store encounter that sums up the silliness of going nuts over some things and tolerating much more dangerous things:

I want her to dictate all coronavirus stories going forward.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

want her to dictate all coronavirus stories going forward.

She has got style. How about she starts doing the press conferences?  

[alter idem]

3 hours ago, Raingirl said:

Going to church is worth whatever work it takes. There are those who have had to endure worse, and still do, to be able to go. 

I'm just trying to consider the ward members such as the Bishoprics etc who could end up spending all Sunday away from their families as they try to hold multiple meetings, have to coordinate everything,  and clean and sanitize between meetings, because they are trying to protect the members.  I think have alternating Sundays is a good idea to lesson this burden and I think it's a personal decision depending on a person's age, risk factor or fears, as to when a person decides to return to church if things are not fully opened up.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

51 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you could do my job for 1 week, you'd understand.  For example, one of my patients had a runny nose (that's it!) and visited her aunt who was dying of cancer.  18 members of her extended family were at her aunts house at the same time to say their good-byes.  Her aunt died of cancer a couple days later.  That is just the beginning of the sad story.  1 week later - all 18 people...yes, ALL 18! tested positive for Covid, or were symptomatic and didn't want to be tested. About 1 week after that, her uncle (the husband of the aunt who just died of cancer) was hospitalized and placed on a ventilator due to Covid.   I see these kinds of sad stories almost weekly.  This is so terribly contagious, it's almost hard to believe.  While most fare well and have mild to moderate symptoms, others suffer terribly.   I can't tell you how many people I speak with express remorse and deep guilt for not being more careful and following simple precautions which led to their friends, family, or loved ones being infected, hospitalized, or dying.  This poor girl was the first symptomatic case in her family, she now carries the guilt of infecting her entire extended family and feels responsible for uncle's condition who was intubated right after loosing his wife.   This is an especially sad story, but I see stuff like this all the time. 

We are approaching 100,000 deaths in the US, with no end in sight (as a whole).  No treatment, no vaccine, with cities and churches opening up and fall weather just a few months away, there is mountains of suffering still ahead.  I personally don't see a lot of hysteria - I see a lot of concern and precautions being taken for good reason. 

Apparently you did not see my post before this, or you ignored it. Either way I won’t be baited into an argument about who has it better or worse. Not the guy for this, as you completely misunderstand, or misunderstood my comment. 

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with the six feet social distancing guideline is that distance is unlikely to work over long periods of time spent in the same environment. For incidental walking by each other in the street the distance is good and mitigates the spread but sitting in the same indoor room all day six feet apart is not that good of a shield. Better than being two feet apart but a lot of the rules are guesswork and just general practice.

There is a lot of paranoid fear about specific things while others are ignored. I like this nurse's account of a grocery store encounter that sums up the silliness of going nuts over some things and tolerating much more dangerous things:

I want her to dictate all coronavirus stories going forward.

That is awesome!

You are absolutely right about the 6 feet thing.  It won't work over short periods of time either where singing hymns is involved.   At the very least, children's Singing time and hymns need to wait.  That should be enforced world wide.  There is no way I am going back to church until either 1) there is an effective vaccine or cure, 2) the virus is eradicated, or 3) there is no singing at church. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

54 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you could do my job for 1 week, you'd understand. 

I wanted to discuss this “challenge” you pose here separately. I served in the U.S. Army on a Medivac Helicopter for 8 years in the Army, and 23 years in Law-Enforcement in the City of Atlanta. My post was about “being too fearful”, but I DO NOT wish you had my jobs, or my professions, as they were my own, and bad enough for me to have endured. But they did teach just a little about “fear”, and how we react to it. Now maybe is just both,  age and wisdom speaking, but having faced all that I have. I was however “in no way”, suggesting anyone be careless, or even reckless. *steps down of soapbox* 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Apparently you did not see my post before this, or you ignored it. Either way I won’t be baited into an argument about who has it better or worse. Not the guy for this, as you completely misunderstand, or misunderstood my comment. 

Sorry if I am misunderstanding and I'm not trying to bait you.  I did read your post.  I just feel that people should be concerned around people who have the sniffles and are coughing. Don't be offended if you are asked to stay home, even if it is just allergies. This virus can look an awful lot like seasonal allergies.  One wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a close physical assessment in many instances.  When calling contacts of positive cases, I can't tell you how many people have told me "it's just allergies".  I insist that they get tested and place them on isolation.  They are positive more often than not it seems.    That is not hysteria, you are coughing in the middle of a pandemic - just expect people to avoid you.  Don't be offended.    

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I wanted to discuss this “challenge” you pose here separately. I served in the U.S. Army on a Medivac Helicopter for 8 years in the Army, and 23 years in Law-Enforcement in the City of Atlanta. My post was about “being too fearful”, but I DO NOT wish you had my jobs, or my professions, as they were my own, and bad enough for me to have endured. But they did teach just a little about “fear”, and how we react to it. Now maybe is just both,  age and wisdom speaking, but having faced all that I have. I was however “in no way”, suggesting anyone be careless, or even reckless. *steps down of soapbox* 

Ok thanks.  

[CA Steve]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

children's Singing time and hymns need to wait.

I agree.

Singing is a wonderful thing! But the problem is we do not live in the same world where singing was a normal everyday  event  that people did. We now live in a world where the louder one talks (or sings) the more effort they are using to expel air from their airways, which in turns means that they are projecting further from themselves their own respiratory emissions. In other words, yelling (or singing) increases the chance to infect those in the same area. The most dangerous areas one can be in is in a crowded confined area in which people have to raise their voices to speak

 

I am with Bob on this, church in the pews needs to wait until we have a vaccine. There are so many out there who will see the approbation by the chuch of what local leaders do as divine assurance that it is safe to go back to the pews. This is really a bad idea.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Just now, pogi said:

Sorry if I am misunderstanding and I'm not trying to bait you.  I did read your post.  I just feel that people should be concerned around people who have the sniffles and are coughing. Don't be offended if you are asked to stay home, even if it is just allergies. This virus can look an awful lot like seasonal allergies.  One wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a close physical assessment in many instances.  When calling contacts of positive cases, I can't tell you how many people have told me "it's just allergies".  I insist that they get tested and place them on isolation.  They are positive more often than not it seems.    That is not hysteria, you are coughing in the middle of a pandemic - just expect people to avoid you.  Don't be offended.    

So what are you suggesting, we old people, or just those who are so happy to back in Church get teary-eyed, at being back, might send others running for the exits? Or, are you suggesting we not listen to the Prophet of the Lord, and ever meet together until we all individually feel reassured that the virus has been taken from the earth?   

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

So what are you suggesting, we old people, or just those who are so happy to back in Church get teary-eyed, at being back, might send others running for the exits? Or, are you suggesting we not listen to the Prophet of the Lord, and ever meet together until we all individually feel reassured that the virus has been taken from the earth?   

I am not afraid of old people, but you should be afraid of us.  The letter suggests vulnerable populations should avoid church by the way.

I think you are being a little dramatic here.  I am simply suggesting that you need to stay home if you are sniffling or coughing, whether you think it is allergies or not.  Even if you test and the results are negative, don't come to church if you are coughing, etc.  The test results are not terribly reliable, and there is no reason to cause concern and fear in other ward members.  They don't know your test results, all they see is a coughing man in an indoor group of people in a pandemic.  The letter suggests that you should not go to church if you are coughing or have a runny nose - so, to use your language "are you suggesting we not listen to the prophet of the Lord?"

Papa, I'm not trying to fight with you and I empathize with you, but we are in the middle of a deadly pandemic.  Please don't be offended if you are asked to stay home, that is all. 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, alter idem said:

Seems like a lot of hassle,  you'd have to divide up a ward, for more than one service,  cordon off every other pew so deacon could personally serve each person in the row, then a deacon to collect used cups,  only one household to sit in side pew together, and six feet apart from other members. Have to sanitize and clean between each meeting,  it would be an all day affair in some buildings for some of the members. Maybe they could have only those who don't have priesthood in their home to come, others continue home church and maybe ask high risk to stay home.... yea, it would be a lot of work,  imo.

One of my first thoughts was that it would be a whole lot simpler just to put it off until we could resume the meetings without all of the restrictions. I think we, as a whole, have adjusted well to having sacrament at home and could continue it — and ministering — until we get an “all-clear,” as it were, from government. 
 

Temple work is another matter. We can’t do that without temples. 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

You may never go back if that is the threshold.

It is likely that we will have a vaccine within 18 months.  No guarantee, but relatively certain.

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

 

I am with Bob on this, church in the pews needs to wait until we have a vaccine. There are so many out there who will see the approbation by the chuch of what local leaders do as divine assurance that it is safe to go back to the pews. This is really a bad idea.

There are many older individuals who are sick but not contagious or in pain who choose to go to church and I very much admire them. My worry is they will think of it as just them getting sick and assume it is worth the risk, when they need to look at it as risking others’ lives, not their own. That and thinking it is all okay if no symptoms when it may be most contagious prior to symptoms showing up. 

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The problem with the six feet social distancing guideline is that distance is unlikely to work over long periods of time spent in the same environment. For incidental walking by each other in the street the distance is good and mitigates the spread but sitting in the same indoor room all day six feet apart is not that good of a shield. Better than being two feet apart but a lot of the rules are guesswork and just general practice.

There is a lot of paranoid fear about specific things while others are ignored. I like this nurse's account of a grocery store encounter that sums up the silliness of going nuts over some things and tolerating much more dangerous things:

I want her to dictate all coronavirus stories going forward.

Love this! She has to be from Texas, lol! I’m surprised she didn’t say “ bless your heart” to the lady, lol!

[Rain]

58 minutes ago, pogi said:

Sorry if I am misunderstanding and I'm not trying to bait you.  I did read your post.  I just feel that people should be concerned around people who have the sniffles and are coughing. Don't be offended if you are asked to stay home, even if it is just allergies. This virus can look an awful lot like seasonal allergies.  One wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a close physical assessment in many instances.  When calling contacts of positive cases, I can't tell you how many people have told me "it's just allergies".  I insist that they get tested and place them on isolation.  They are positive more often than not it seems.    That is not hysteria, you are coughing in the middle of a pandemic - just expect people to avoid you.  Don't be offended.    

I was thinking I have my normal cough till a couple of other things that made me wonder came up though none were common symptoms of covid. It's not that I cough all the time - just several times throughout the year I will start to cough for a few weeks. Then also my daughter and husband started to cough as well. I saw the CDC had a symptom checker and did it and it suggested I get tested.

So on Saturday I did. It was kind of weird because those asking me the questions seemed to be disapproving of me being there till I told them about the symptom checker suggesting I do it.  

I don't have the results back yet in case anyone wonders.

Tips to anyone getting tested: bring a tissue with you (my nose started to run afterwards for a few minutes) and if you to get a headache right after the test gently rub the base of your nose.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Papa, I'm not trying to fight with you and I empathize with you, but we are in the middle of a deadly pandemic.  Please don't be offended if you are asked to stay home, that is all.

I understand, I have already survived so many things in my life already, I am quite possibly viewing all of this from a different lens. 

[CA Steve]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

There are many older individuals who are sick but not contagious or in pain who choose to go to church and I very much admire them. My worry is they will think of it as just them getting sick and assume it is worth the risk, when they need to look at it as risking others’ lives, not their own. That and thinking it is all okay if no symptoms when it may be most contagious prior to symptoms showing up. 

TBH I care very little for the risk that these people are exposing to others. My wife is one of those who will go to church is if is open and will take no thought to the risk that she is exposing herself to and others that are caring for her. I not only have her to care for I also have a special need son who needs my attention. I am in that high risk category of people who die when they contract this disease so the church allowing attendance at chapels depending on the local government decisions is foolhardy in my opinion and risks not only her life but mine and my sons. This is a bad decision.

[Maestrophil]

My first thought, as a song-leader, was that I hope they don't rush primary...  If kids can't be in a classroom or 20-30 kids at public school, how are you going to have 50 in singing time - all while singing/shouting, which is a big contributor to contagion?

 

[let’s roll]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There are lots of reasons to hope. I have been a Jeremiah about this pandemic but we are not as divided as we seem to be as a nation.

Well I’m in the minority for almost half of the combined poll questions list.  Confirms my status as a contrarian, I suppose.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

TBH I care very little for the risk that these people are exposing to others. My wife is one of those who will go to church is if is open and will take no thought to the risk that she is exposing herself to and others that are caring for her. I not only have her to care for I also have a special need son who needs my attention. I am in that high risk category of people who die when they contract this disease so the church allowing attendance at chapels depending on the local government decisions is foolhardy in my opinion and risks not only her life but mine and my sons. This is a bad decision.

I suspect we are saying the same thing. While I admire them when the consequences are solely in them, I don’t want them to stiff upper lip when it comes to contagious diseases. I worry that they will just act the same when it is a very different situation. 
 

And since I have no control over such making stupid choices, I do not want my family going to church at all. My husband feels a strong duty if Primary gets reopened. I am afraid there will be some fighting in our home if that happens soon.   My diabetic daughter’s thyroid is going wonky again (heartbeat is 140 without drugs) and that makes her that much more vulnerable. Plus she is concerned about us getting sick and we don’t need to contribute to her anxieties in that way.