We're Headed Back to Church! Sorta.

[alter idem]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Highly civilized Sweden now has the highest per capita death rate in the world from COVID-19.  https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/sweden-recorded-most-coronavirus-deaths-062257755.html

And they were so proud that they didn't bother to have a lockdown.  I thought that the Swedes were known for having such a disciplined society.  What happened?

I think it's a little premature to be making any pronouncements yet.  There's no question that this pandemic, how different countries etc are handling it, has been highly politicized.  It seems best that we should 'mourn with those that mourn' rather than look on smugly while others are suffering.

[longview]

4 minutes ago, alter idem said:

I think it's a little premature to be making any pronouncements yet.  There's no question that this pandemic, how different countries etc are handling it, has been highly politicized.  It seems best that we should 'mourn with those that mourn' rather than look on smugly while others are suffering.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Which implies there will be singing...sigh.

But it sounds like no primary or second hour meetings, so at least there is that.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But it sounds like no primary or second hour meetings, so at least there is that.

Masks are optional though.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Which implies there will be singing...sigh.

Singing should not happen.

[provoman]

59 minutes ago, Calm said:

Masks are optional though.

And optional for sacrement prep and blessing. Though at such close proximity - almost direct under the persons face - to the person(s) breaking the bread  sure a mask make much of difference;  it may be disconcerting to the congregation the masks are not worn but ultimately not be a much of a benefit.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, alter idem said:

I don't think that's a problem. I'm certain that the Bishop would understand if a person said they did not want to risk coming back to church and would need to be released for now.  There's nothing wrong looking out for one's own health and well-being.  What bothers me is people who want to dictate to everyone else to live the same standard and worry to the same extent that they do.   It's just too controlling.    I  support anyone's right to continue to stay home, after church meetings are allowed again.  No one is forced to go to church, and if they are high risk, it would be wise for them to not return for a while, imo.  But, if others feel it is not so much of a risk to them, or it is a risk they are comfortable with, let them do as they like.  I'm high risk, so I'll make the decision for myself as to when I feel comfortable going back to church, but I don't presume to make that decision for others.

Hopefully they'll make an exception for those that want a temple recommend renewed and they can't answer that they are attending church each Sunday.

[pogi]

I am most concerned about the Spanish wards and branches in West Valley.   It is spreading like wild fire out there In the Hispanic community.  This is going to add a LOT more fuel.   The problem is that many in this community live in multi family homes, with their elderly parents living with them.  Even though vulnerable populations won’t be attending church, the virus is simply going to be delivered to their door step by those family members going to church.  If you live with a vulnerable person, don’t go to church.  Just don’t!
It will be interesting to see how many show up.  

I think I am going to compose a letter for my bishop and Stake president regarding my concerns about singing in church from a public health stand point.  It just seems like a no brainer to me.  It is simply not worth the risk.  I think starting church is too soon, but singing puts this over the top.  I don’t know if this is a matter of ignorance or what.  Within 1 month time from when wards are attending again, numbers are going to spike.  Loved church and ward members are going to suffer terribly because of this.  There are going to be outbreaks all over the valley.  I am going to be the one calling these individuals and comforting them as they cry on the phone because their mother (who was perfectly healthy last week) is barely hanging on to life in the ICU because they went to church.  I wish the decision makers would be the ones listening to their stories, maybe things would be different.  This is a bad nightmare coming true.

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am most concerned about the Spanish wards and branches in West Valley.   It is spreading like wild fire out there In the Hispanic community.  This is going to add a LOT more fuel.   The problem is that many in this community live in multi family homes, with their elderly parents living with them.  Even though vulnerable populations won’t be attending church, the virus is simply going to be delivered to their door step by those family members going to church.  If you live with a vulnerable person, don’t go to church.  Just don’t!
It will be interesting to see how many show up.  

I think I am going to compose a letter for my bishop and Stake president regarding my concerns about singing in church from a public health stand point.  It just seems like a no brainer to me.  It is simply not worth the risk.  I think starting church is too soon, but singing puts this over the top.  I don’t know if this is a matter of ignorance or what.  Within 1 month time from when wards are attending again, numbers are going to spike.  Loved church and ward members are going to suffer terribly because of this.  There are going to be outbreaks all over the valley.  I am going to be the one calling these individuals and comforting them as they cry on the phone because their mother (who was perfectly healthy last week) is barely hanging on to life in the ICU because they went to church.  I wish the decision makers would be the ones listening to their stories, maybe things would be different.  This is a bad nightmare coming true.

My son-in-law is Hispanic and they live in West Valley, I saw the statistics today and percentages. Pretty worried.

ETA: Maybe they should have outdoor meetings like they did in JS's time, sorta kidding and sorta not.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tacenda

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Hopefully they'll make an exception for those that want a temple recommend renewed and they can't answer that they are attending church each Sunday.

They did before covid for health concerns so I see no reason they wouldn’t now. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am most concerned about the Spanish wards and branches in West Valley.   It is spreading like wild fire out there In the Hispanic community.  This is going to add a LOT more fuel.   The problem is that many in this community live in multi family homes, with their elderly parents living with them.  Even though vulnerable populations won’t be attending church, the virus is simply going to be delivered to their door step by those family members going to church.  If you live with a vulnerable person, don’t go to church.  Just don’t!
It will be interesting to see how many show up.  

I think I am going to compose a letter for my bishop and Stake president regarding my concerns about singing in church from a public health stand point.  It just seems like a no brainer to me.  It is simply not worth the risk.  I think starting church is too soon, but singing puts this over the top.  I don’t know if this is a matter of ignorance or what.  Within 1 month time from when wards are attending again, numbers are going to spike.  Loved church and ward members are going to suffer terribly because of this.  There are going to be outbreaks all over the valley.  I am going to be the one calling these individuals and comforting them as they cry on the phone because their mother (who was perfectly healthy last week) is barely hanging on to life in the ICU because they went to church.  I wish the decision makers would be the ones listening to their stories, maybe things would be different.  This is a bad nightmare coming true.

PM me a copy of your letter please. I need to convince my husband not to go even if he is utmost careful. I have asked him to wait at least a month to see if there are new spikes and feel some resistance.  He loves church and loves teaching and wants to start doing activity days with the boys again.  He is thinking masks and having them outside will be enough. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

Comments on KSL today. They are like this for the most part. I wonder if the leaders worry that people like home church a little too much. And that is the hurry to get them back in the pews.

https://www.ksl.com/article/46755370/utah-area-presidency-approves-utah-latter-day-saint-wards-to-meet-again

c/p below:

We live in a ward comprised of senior retirement communities (over 55) and already fill the overflow area. I don't think it will be safe for many to come back to regular church services at present.

11ReplyReport abuse

laum · 7 hours ago

Really liking home church...

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Pelt45 · 7 hours ago

I have enjoyed not having the stress of church. I have gotten so much peace and relief from "the world" by spending the day with family and not feeling stressed by meetings, lessons, getting ready for meetings, etc. I used to hate Sundays. Now I love them. And no, it didn't turn into second Saturday. We just stayed home and it has been glorious

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headabovewater · 6 hours ago

I too have enjoyed being home on Sunday and studying with my family. However, I also have faith and trust in our Prophet and the twelve and if this is the decision they have made I will do my best to follow it. I can honestly say I have always prospered when I follow counsel and this is no exception. Who knows what's coming down the road and I would rather ere on the side of obedience.

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Justbarton08 · 6 hours ago

Our family has also found much "delight" in the sabbath day by not having to fight to get church clothes on squirming little kids, only to realize that someone is missing a shoe and can't find it, someone else just spilled jam on their dress and sacrament is about to start... We've felt the spirit and our children have gained a little more understanding of the sacrament as we've practiced church at home. It will be interesting to see how Utah stakes move forward with this directive. Perhaps alternating weeks would be a good way to ease back into meeting regularly.

6ReplyReport abuse

xkxkxk · 1 hour ago

A thousand likes to that great comment!!!

ReplyReport abuse

hookem · 7 hours ago

I just don't see this as a good idea at this point in time. "Home Church" has worked so well and quite honestly has been so much more rewarding than in person meetings. The time with family and less meetings has been phenomenal. In addition, we have 4 wards that meet in our building. Allowing up to 99 people at a time to pass through multiple times on a given Sunday just seems like a good way to spread illness. I had this concern prior to Covid-19 as 200-300 individuals passed through the building 4 times each Sunday and many were sick. My wife and I have taught primary/nursery for 10 years and parents brought their children sick regardless of signs posted. Adults were just as guilty as well of coming sick. With Covid-19 many are asymptomatic and can spread the disease. I see that they are encouraging those at risk to stay home, but will they? I don't trust adults/kids to touch only one piece of bread even if spaced out. I will not be volunteering to disinfect the area either. I'm not saying to never attend again, but the timing of this is odd. I'm glad they are giving a choice here, but we have heard how Home church is inspired for times like this. Let's keep it going!

29ReplyReport abuse

NewsFeed · 7 hours ago

Very good. My feelings exactly. This is all too premature. Spend time with family at home, wait until the light is green and then everyone can go back to normal again. All this rush is unnecessary and risky. We all know that people will break the social distancing rules, be asymptomatic and gathering in groups that are not family is just a mistake, in my opinion. Why not wait? Are we just living in denial that this pandemic is really dangerous? The reason thousands aren't sick is because of the measures put into place, now everyone rushes to go back to normal only to come down with the sickness later while passing it on to thousands in the process. I understand not wanting to live in fear. This isn't about fear, it's about precautions. We are not Switzerland, many of us in society could care less about masks or social distancing. Too risky. Wait. Green light, then go. Right now, cases are still up and so are deaths.

7ReplyReport abuse

tangerinedream · 4 hours ago

I love this comment so much!!! At home church has changed my life. We are a very active family and love the gospel...and I finally feel the spirit the way I know I should and the sacrament is the most wonderful and sacred part of my week. My children are loving our gospel discussions and our testimonies have grown more than at any time of my life. I look forward to the sabbath day so much. I dreaded them before because of the stress and insanity of the day. So many meetings and stress with little kids. I don't mean to complain. I love our leaders and I love President Nelson! This at home church has been the greatest joy and blessing for our family. I am not ready to let it go.

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bennyp · 7 hours ago

I will just wait until we go back to green. Home church has been awesome.

13ReplyReport abuse

puma_concolor · 7 hours ago

While this is promising news, our family is planning to wait at least a few weeks before attending. Given that members are historically terrible at following new guidelines from the First Presidency (such as always whispering in the chapel, skipping announcements in sacrament, relief society, and priesthood, etc.), and given that we've seen all of the bishopric in our ward completely ignoring Covid-19 guidelines in all phases (in Sandy), we'll just wait and see before we rush back in.Hopefully they can work out the kinks after a few weeks without too many people getting sick, and we can all meet together again soon.

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2-of-38 · 7 hours ago

I can't wear a face mask at church or I could be doing a face plant. Wearing a mask makes me feel short of breath.

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LISCTR · 7 hours ago

That's because, underlying condition or not, you are constantly breathing your on co-2... which is not good for the human body for an extended period of time. When we go back I will not be wearing a mask!

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SpiffyL1ama · 6 hours ago

unless you're wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask for hours at a time you won't be getting significant amount of c02 increases.

3Report abuse

06whitelancer · 7 hours ago

My kids are too young to wear a mask or refrain proper distance. Also, autism in children doesn't help when you need to understand what proper personal space is.

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fat2fit · 7 hours ago

Faith groups are allowed to have services of any size as long as 6 foot social distancing can be observed.https://coronavirus-download.utah.gov/business/Yellow/Religious_Services_Yellow.pdf

1ReplyReport abuse

DeathofReason · 7 hours ago

Think I'll wait for the vaccine.

12ReplyReport abuse

stopper20 · 7 hours ago

I wonder if any wards sang "God be with you til we meet again"?

1ReplyReport abuse

SLC-Stator · 7 hours ago

Utah's case-counts have arguably flattened, but we are still seeing around 130 COVID cases a day -- and it has remained that way since mid-April. When infected, 8% end up in the hospital and slighter higher than 1% die. I can see the push to reopen economically where people need a paycheck, but I don't understand the Church's push to reopen when the pandemic is as dangerous now as it was a month ago. I was hoping we would be more careful with the health and lives of our members, especially since a stay-at-home Sabbath has become such a viable option given the foresight of Church leaders.

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Sirius · 7 hours ago

I would say the odds of widespread outbreaks in Utah are now a near certainty.

12ReplyReport abuse

EddieSavage · 7 hours ago

How in the world do you pass the sacrament without passing the tray down the isle? There is hardly enough room to sit, let alone to have some kid walk down the isle carrying a tray.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

A few cartoons from my nephew

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, alter idem said:

I think it's a little premature to be making any pronouncements yet.  There's no question that this pandemic, how different countries etc are handling it, has been highly politicized.  It seems best that we should 'mourn with those that mourn' rather than look on smugly while others are suffering.

I am not at all smug in this matter, but I am very sorry that an otherwise well-developed and intelligent society (Sverige) should have dropped the ball and exercised such poor judgment.  That failure to exercise common sense and the evident lack of professional medical judgment costs lives that should not have been lost.  The same problem of politicizing a medical issue is also taking place in the good old USA.  It need not have.

[Calm]

Not sure this has been posted before, but people should read this before going back to church make informed choices, clear and thorough explanation:

Quote

Indoor spaces, with limited air exchange or recycled air and lots of people, are concerning from a transmission standpoint. We know that 60 people in a volleyball court-sized room (choir) results in massive infections. Same situation with the restaurant and the call center.  Social distancing guidelines don't hold in indoor spaces where you spend a lot of time, as people on the opposite side of the room were infected. 

The principle is viral exposure over an extended period of time. In all these cases, people were exposed to the virus in the air for a prolonged period (hours). Even if they were 50 feet away (choir or call center), even a low dose of the virus in the air reaching them, over a sustained period, was enough to cause infection and in some cases, death. 

Social distancing rules are really to protect you with brief exposures or outdoor exposures. In these situations there is not enough time to achieve the infectious viral load when you are standing 6 feet apart or where wind and the infinite outdoor space for viral dilution reduces viral load. The effects of sunlight, heat, and humidity on viral survival, all serve to minimize the risk to everyone when outside.

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them?fbclid=IwAR2Hx3XCdJd4d6Ru9bkcPxykTncdw3AYGi1g3xJNlMWnOwuz23dxH8AIBOE

Edited May 21, 2020 by Calm

[cherryTreez]

I love home church. My kids listen and talk. My son is talking about church and singing primary songs now. He hated Sundays, church and primary. He would start worrying about it Saturday and would get worse on Sunday and Sunday night would be worn out from it. People couldn't shut up about asking him if he wanted to go to class. 

I have loved having my older son and husband home on Sundays. No early meetings, no setting up or taking down, and on and on.  I would be perfectly happy never going back.  

Youth meetings started up today and half the family was gone. I wish they had been home. I dread when we start back up.

[webbles]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

In comparison to past numbers?  I tried to find a chart yesterday for Utah, but just found individual counties...and not the one I live in.

added:  found a chart that had no deaths the day previous to the 8 new ones, plus the day before looking average and the two days before being low...so it could be a case of some of those lasting a few days longer than usual for whatever reason (maybe improving medical care, maybe they were stronger to begin with).

There seems to be a slight increase last week.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/utah-coronavirus-cases.html#cases

Utah has an official site that shows their numbers: https://coronavirus.utah.gov/case-counts/

If you click on the "Incidence & EpiCurve" link in the blue bar and scroll down to the bar chart, you can see the daily rate as well as a 3 day average and smoothing line.  Utah has been fairly flat for almost a month.  There are bumps and dips but the smoothed line is pretty flat.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, webbles said:

Utah has an official site that shows their numbers: https://coronavirus.utah.gov/case-counts/

If you click on the "Incidence & EpiCurve" link in the blue bar and scroll down to the bar chart, you can see the daily rate as well as a 3 day average and smoothing line.  Utah has been fairly flat for almost a month.  There are bumps and dips but the smoothed line is pretty flat.

Thank you for the info. I had looked at that site, but must have had a tech glitch because it didn’t scroll down to the graphs. 

I see we have likely more recovered than active at this point.  For some reason that feels like an accomplishment.

I hope it continues that way. For some reason this week is really the first I feel the pandemic encroaching into my life, maybe because a couple of plans had to be changed unexpectedly so I feel less in control. It is as if we have a real fire after tons of fire drills. There is a sense of dread replacing the sense of distance.  The lack of emotion didn’t make any difference in how we prepared, but I am thinking it is going to make a difference in how I sleep now. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by Calm

[alter idem]

Let's think back before all the stay at home orders. The purpose of these was not to keep everyone from being infected,  but to keep every one from being infected at the same time and overwhelming the health care system.  This worked well, but now it seems some feel we must try to prevent any infections,  which is unreasonable,  because continuing this stay at home indefinitely will destroy the economy and that will cost lives. There has to be a balance and we have to not let ourselves be manipulated into criticizing those who have different viewpoints on how to deal with this pandemic.  We also need to understand the goals and weigh costs and not create new crises while trying to avert others. 

[alter idem]

13 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Singing should not happen.

It hardly does anyway,  I'd say half don't sing anyway-- they are staring off into space or whispering to their neighbors. 🤐

[alter idem]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am not at all smug in this matter, but I am very sorry that an otherwise well-developed and intelligent society (Sverige) should have dropped the ball and exercised such poor judgment.  That failure to exercise common sense and the evident lack of professional medical judgment costs lives that should not have been lost.  The same problem of politicizing a medical issue is also taking place in the good old USA.  It need not have.

Well, I read it as smug....and snarky. Just so you know it may have come across in a way you apparently did not intend. Different theories are being followed to try to deal with this, different countries chose different methods,  we'll have to wait to find out which worked best. This isn't over and we'll need accurate, fair, detailed reports to be able to compare and contrast numbers, something we don't have right now. I just think it's a little early to be declaring one way to be superior to others when we're still in the pandemic. 

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Thank you for the info. I had looked at that site, but must have had a tech glitch because it didn’t scroll down to the graphs. 

I see we have likely more recovered than active at this point.  For some reason that feels like an accomplishment.

I hope it continues that way. For some reason this week is really the first I feel the pandemic encroaching into my life, maybe because a couple of plans had to be changed unexpectedly so I feel less in control. It is as if we have a real fire after tons of fire drills. There is a sense of dread replacing the sense of distance.  The lack of emotion didn’t make any difference in how we prepared, but I am thinking it is going to make a difference in how I sleep now. 

I've been follow UT's numbers daily for a while. it's been steady so far but it's this week to the end of the month that I'm really wanting to see what happens. They didn't start reopening until may 1 (with orange level risk) and only this week did they move to yellow. It takes about 2 weeks for new cases to start to appear. As you can also tell from the graphs, data is still being filled for about the last week or so for official numbers. My guess is that we may not see a huge jump at first or an exponential growth rate. UT's a mixed bag of people following social distancing practices. Some people and places are better, depending on large part to the population they serve and what said population thinks about the risks tied to covid-19. So I went to a small grocer that tends to collect health-conscious food and the majority of people there are wearing masks and consciensious of space. But a few weeks ago we went to home depot for a pick up order and it was not only extremely busy, almost no one wore facemasks, including the employees who came way too close to our window to talk loudly (we'd left it mostly rolled up). We now go to lowes in a less populated city early in the morning if we need stuff (home projects have been our thing during covid-19....and for the last 2 years ) . 

Anyways I say that to point out that i assume there will be pockets of flair up that will likely increase our overall numbers but may not lead to an exponential growth curve as it was. There's still a part of the population socially distancing and playing it say or reducing their interactions and travel than before. Including in church,  I'm assuming, if people follow the guidelines mentioned there will naturally be far less people there. less people means less room for growth of the virus. But because it's still more people than before and people are likely to get comfortable, this will start to tick upwards. 

 

But that's my hypothesis based on watching the numbers and people's behaviors. I think it's folly to assume we won't see an increase in cases....especially since there seems to be a subset of the population here who aren't taking it seriously and downplaying the need for social distancing or simply don't fully get what that looks like and means

 

With luv,

BD 

[Rain]

39 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I've been follow UT's numbers daily for a while. it's been steady so far but it's this week to the end of the month that I'm really wanting to see what happens. They didn't start reopening until may 1 (with orange level risk) and only this week did they move to yellow. It takes about 2 weeks for new cases to start to appear. As you can also tell from the graphs, data is still being filled for about the last week or so for official numbers. My guess is that we may not see a huge jump at first or an exponential growth rate. UT's a mixed bag of people following social distancing practices. Some people and places are better, depending on large part to the population they serve and what said population thinks about the risks tied to covid-19. So I went to a small grocer that tends to collect health-conscious food and the majority of people there are wearing masks and consciensious of space. But a few weeks ago we went to home depot for a pick up order and it was not only extremely busy, almost no one wore facemasks, including the employees who came way too close to our window to talk loudly (we'd left it mostly rolled up). We now go to lowes in a less populated city early in the morning if we need stuff (home projects have been our thing during covid-19....and for the last 2 years ) . 

Anyways I say that to point out that i assume there will be pockets of flair up that will likely increase our overall numbers but may not lead to an exponential growth curve as it was. There's still a part of the population socially distancing and playing it say or reducing their interactions and travel than before. Including in church,  I'm assuming, if people follow the guidelines mentioned there will naturally be far less people there. less people means less room for growth of the virus. But because it's still more people than before and people are likely to get comfortable, this will start to tick upwards. 

 

But that's my hypothesis based on watching the numbers and people's behaviors. I think it's folly to assume we won't see an increase in cases....especially since there seems to be a subset of the population here who aren't taking it seriously and downplaying the need for social distancing or simply don't fully get what that looks like and means

 

With luv,

BD 

I see that here as well. Going to Walmart I saw few with masks. Going to an Asian market I saw most with them.  I've seen similar things with different groups.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, alter idem said:

Well, I read it as smug....and snarky. Just so you know it may have come across in a way you apparently did not intend. Different theories are being followed to try to deal with this, different countries chose different methods,  we'll have to wait to find out which worked best. This isn't over and we'll need accurate, fair, detailed reports to be able to compare and contrast numbers, something we don't have right now. I just think it's a little early to be declaring one way to be superior to others when we're still in the pandemic. 

It is absurd to identify as "snarky" or "smug" an insistence on professional responsibility.  I much prefer to listen to Dr Fauci, as I have for decades, than some yokel who will get us all killed as he carries on with his witless rambling nonsense.  I'm not willing to wait till its over to determine whether some fool was correct in his imbecilic assumptions.  But that's just me.  Others clearly have a variety of views.  Wisely did Plato worry about mobocracy.

[MustardSeed]

I’m not going back until there’s a vaccine.  I don’t understand the rush.  Church was shut when there were far less cases.  I don’t subscribe to “I’m bored, corona is over”. 
 

if the sacrament was good enough at home for two months, it will be sufficient for me for the next year until it’s not potentially deadly to go to the building.  

 

Edited May 21, 2020 by MustardSeed