We're Headed Back to Church! Sorta.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

So you are saying there really is no definition of "Hispanic/Latino" except what exists in peoples minds.  Somehow you think that something with no biological, cultural or behavioral definition can help you with a medical problem.  

You can't see the problem with that?

One of the biggest problems with racism is that people never see it in themselves.   They think that as long as they are nice to people of different races they can't be racists.  What they don't realize is that seeing people as different races is the problem. Race doesn't really exist except in the mind.  

danzo, 

I have to admit I was a little confused and caught off gaurd by describing pogi as racist. And I come from a partially latino family (both by marriage to a man from peru and growing up with a tex-mex step- father). I'm half black myself so it's not one of those "I know a brown person" situations to excuse racist sentiment and blindspots. None of us live in a home that isn't parent-child. But the stats indicate a sizeable percentage of Latinos do live in multigen homes (outnumbered, percentage wise only by asian families) https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/05/a-record-64-million-americans-live-in-multigenerational-households/. 

Are you talking about the blind spots of the other factors that are not culturally induced that Pogi didn't mention? Those that without them, skew the comment as sounding a little more like almost a personal choice or cultural disadvantage to put oneself at risk of coronavirus....such as income inequality, health access disparities, lowered protections for essential workers, etc? 

Cuz on its own, I didn't read his comment as racist...just noting a possible concern that may effect more families in latino/hispanic households in UT

 

with luv, 

BD

Edited May 21, 2020 by BlueDreams

[Danzo]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, it is driven by a highly contagious and dangerous virus.

That never happened initially. The only question was whether children could be carriers at all. They closed because they would serve as hotbeds of virus transmission and people with intelligence and expertise figured that out.

You do not see the difference between essential and non-essential business and instead sort on size?

That was a debate in the beginning. It is now generally concluded that masks (the ones people build for themselves) provide little protection for the wearer but do mitigate the risk of the wearer infecting others.

You can't go to the park because you are then interacting and are closer to other people. A park is safer than an office building or a home for transmission but if you are at home under quarantine you minimize contact with others and have less chance of catching.

No, it is concerning because more of them are essential workers and/or are more impoverished and have a harder time quarantining from others. A good question would be why so many essential jobs pay poverty wages.

They justify the increased rates of infection by "the facts".

It is easy to deduce why you have such a crippling inferiority complex about intelligence and expertise.

Obviously I have very little intelligence and expertise, why else would I disagree with you.

Unfortunately I am not intelligent enough to stop arguing.

Your extreme intelligence obviously sees this as forcing us stegosaurus brained people into doing things for our own good, staying put and doing as we are told.

If only we were as as smart as you,

It is your great wisdom and intelligence that has resulted in large portions of the medical community being laid off. 

 

 

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

danzo, 

I have to admit I was a little confused and caught off gaurd by describing pogi as racist. And I come from a partially latino family (both by marriage to a man from peru and growing up with a tex-mex step- father). I'm half black myself so it's not one of those "I know a brown person" situations to excuse racist sentiment and blindspots. None of us live in a home that isn't parent-child. But the stats indicate a sizeable percentage of Latinos do live in multigen homes (outnumbered, percentage wise only by asian families) https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/05/a-record-64-million-americans-live-in-multigenerational-households/. 

Are you talking about the blind spots of the other factors that are not culturally induced that Pogi didn't mention? Those that without them, skew the comment as sounding a little more like almost a personal choice or cultural disadvantage to put oneself at risk of coronavirus....such as income inequality, health access disparities, lowered protections for essential workers, etc? 

Cuz on its own, I didn't read his comment as racist...just noting a possible concern that may effect more families in latino/hispanic households in UT

 

with luv, 

BD

Thanks, but it is no use.  You too are clearly racist:

Quote

Dividing people into groups like "Hispanic" "Black" "Pacific Islanders", etc is the very definition of racism.

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

Obviously I have very little intelligence and expertise, why else would I disagree with you.

Agreed.

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

Unfortunately I am not intelligent enough to stop arguing.

That is indeed unfortunate.

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

Your extreme intelligence obviously sees this as forcing us stegosaurus brained people into doing things for our own good, staying put and doing as we are told.

It is indeed an irony that the people who complain the most about nanny states and insist on absolute freedom of choice despite danger to themselves and others almost inevitably show irresponsibility with that freedom and create the need for a nanny state.

3 hours ago, Danzo said:

If only we were as as smart as you,

It is your great wisdom and intelligence that has resulted in large portions of the medical community being laid off. 

My great wisdom and intelligence also lets me identify your statement here as reductive and inane.

Edited May 21, 2020 by The Nehor

[alter idem]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

The difference is that the rest of the population is mandated to limit group sizes to no more than 50 in yellow areas and no more than 20 in orange areas.   However, church (even in orange areas) have been approved to meet in groups of up to 99, singing together.  I don't pretend like the spread of this virus can be eliminated.  I do think economic suffering is a serious concern and needs to be balanced with the infectious disease response.  However, simply because we may need to open society in some ways, does not mean we should avoid all caution and begin to be negligent in other ways.  Singing in groups of 99 is not acceptable and is in fact against the law for the rest of society, why is it acceptable for churches?  It makes no sense. 

In my ward, a lot of people do not sing, they just sit there. Is talking safe, it seems like talking would be just as dangerous as singing. So in a restaurant patrons will be talking so that's a lot of possibly contaminated air. In gyms, it's even worse, people are breathing heavily and filling the air with humid exhaling.  I don't understand why that is allowed but singing is dangerous?   This is what's so frustrating,  as some things are a threat but other possible threats are ignored?

I just want to see consistency and reason given some consideration.

[Robert F. Smith]

43 minutes ago, Danzo said:

If you were a cop you would probably pull them over more often because you know they commit crime at a higher rate. Nothing I could say would convince you that you were wrong after you had spoken to thousands of people and arrested hundreds of people of every background.

You would be right, of course, 

You would also be racist, because you would be judging people based on an artificial category.

Actually, the Hispanic people who have been crossing our southern border for centuries commit less crime than other Americans, and they are also in better health than ordinary American citizens.  This may be because they were raised with better values, because they get more exercise doing manual labor, and eat unrefined food -- which is better for health.

Of course, immigration is now at a complete standstill.  However, normally, since our regular population is not growing (low birthrate), we desperately need immigrants to supply enough workers to keep our economy going, and thus to supply enough payments into Social Security to supply those who have retired with their promised income.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks, but it is no use.  You too are clearly racist:

 

Danzo is trying to play the race-blind or color-blind card. He takes the ideal of such an egalitarian society where all racial distinctions are ignored and pretends we are living in it now. If we are living in such a society any mention or classification of race distinctions are regressive and perpetuate the problem. In practice with racial inequalities all around the argument is just a facile way of trying to shut down any discussion of the problem and gratifies the user by allowing him to imagine he is the enlightened one amongst a pack of racists. It is a common rhetorical tactic. The alt-Right loves it.

Edited May 21, 2020 by The Nehor

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

What the heck does being part of the white race even mean from a scientific perspective.  Is there an accepted shade of skin color or melanin concentration?   Do you measure it before or after getting a tan?  What would it mean genetically, Why is white one race but people with darker skin get to be classified in to other races because of facial structure, where white people don't have to take facial features into account.

The whole thing is rather silly. 

It's like the plot of a star wars film. You can only enjoy it if you don't think about it too deeply. 

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Is talking safe, it seems like talking would be just as dangerous as singing.

You're exhaling more and harder when you sing than during a normal conversation. 

"When individuals sing, they project their voices. Powerful voices project droplets at far greater distances than does casual conversation."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/religious-gatherings-and-covid-19-why-singing-poses-additional-risk/ar-BB13vH8D

[The Nehor]

Just now, ksfisher said:

You're exhaling more and harder when you sing than during a normal conversation. 

"When individuals sing, they project their voices. Powerful voices project droplets at far greater distances than does casual conversation."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/religious-gatherings-and-covid-19-why-singing-poses-additional-risk/ar-BB13vH8D

This. A rally or sports even with a lot of cheering and exclamations might be similar to singing in a choir. Church services would be a little less contagious because the singing is sporadic and muted compared to some performances but it is still more likely to spread the virus than silence or speaking softly.

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, alter idem said:

In my ward, a lot of people do not sing, they just sit there. Is talking safe, it seems like talking would be just as dangerous as singing. So in a restaurant patrons will be talking so that's a lot of possibly contaminated air. In gyms, it's even worse, people are breathing heavily and filling the air with humid exhaling.  I don't understand why that is allowed but singing is dangerous?   This is what's so frustrating,  as some things are a threat but other possible threats are ignored?

I just want to see consistency and reason given some consideration.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

danzo, 

I have to admit I was a little confused and caught off gaurd by describing pogi as racist. And I come from a partially latino family (both by marriage to a man from peru and growing up with a tex-mex step- father). I'm half black myself so it's not one of those "I know a brown person" situations to excuse racist sentiment and blindspots. None of us live in a home that isn't parent-child. But the stats indicate a sizeable percentage of Latinos do live in multigen homes (outnumbered, percentage wise only by asian families) https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/04/05/a-record-64-million-americans-live-in-multigenerational-households/. 

Are you talking about the blind spots of the other factors that are not culturally induced that Pogi didn't mention? Those that without them, skew the comment as sounding a little more like almost a personal choice or cultural disadvantage to put oneself at risk of coronavirus....such as income inequality, health access disparities, lowered protections for essential workers, etc? 

Cuz on its own, I didn't read his comment as racist...just noting a possible concern that may effect more families in latino/hispanic households in UT

 

with luv, 

BD

 

One of the problems I see is that people use racism is a pejorative to the point that no one wants to talk about what it really is.   I don't think racism is any worse than other human faults and perhaps the term is inflammatory, but I don't know of a non flammatory word to use.

Judging people and categorizing people base on perceived differences is what racism is.  Its not just doing bad things to people because of race, but seeing people as race. 

 

 

I have no doubt that you have relations that see themselves as "Latino", but what does a "Tex Mex" and a man from Peru really have in common other than someone put a label on them (or they put it on themselves).  

Is it the language?  Then I should be classified with people from India, Nigeria and Ghana. (The accent may be different, but no more so than a Tex Mex accent and a Peruvian accent)

Is it Genetics?  I don't know about your husband but most Peruvians I know would have little genetically in common with a "Tex Mex".

Is it that both live with large extended families?  In my experience, living in large extended families has more to do with poverty than coming from south of the border.  Certainly none of my immediate relations that come from mexico live in multi-generational families. 

If you are identifying people with large inter generational families as problems, then why not say that?

 

I would expect that poverty is probably a much bigger common denominator than being "Latino" is when it comes to COVID risk and transmission.  By not identifying the real cause, and focusing on some invented class of people, we run the risk of not addressing the real problems.

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Danzo is trying to play the race-blind or color-blind card. He takes the ideal of such an egalitarian society where all racial distinctions are ignored and pretends we are living in it now. If we are living in such a society any mention or classification of race distinctions are regressive and perpetuate the problem. In practice with racial inequalities all around the argument is just a facile way of trying to shut down any discussion of the problem and gratifies the user by allowing him to imagine he is the enlightened one amongst a pack of racists. It is a common rhetorical tactic. The alt-Right loves it.

I am surprised by you . This is why the country is so divided, you have decided that since I don't agree with you I must somehow be your enemy politically. 

 

[ksfisher]

10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This. A rally or sports even with a lot of cheering and exclamations might be similar to singing in a choir. Church services would be a little less contagious because the singing is sporadic and muted compared to some performances but it is still more likely to spread the virus than silence or speaking softly.

 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 

One of the problems I see is that people use racism is a pejorative to the point that no one wants to talk about what it really is.   I don't think racism is any worse than other human faults and perhaps the term is inflammatory, but I don't know of a non flammatory word to use.

Judging people and categorizing people base on perceived differences is what racism is.  Its not just doing bad things to people because of race, but seeing people as race. 

 

 

I have no doubt that you have relations that see themselves as "Latino", but what does a "Tex Mex" and a man from Peru really have in common other than someone put a label on them (or they put it on themselves).  

Is it the language?  Then I should be classified with people from India, Nigeria and Ghana. (The accent may be different, but no more so than a Tex Mex accent and a Peruvian accent)

Is it Genetics?  I don't know about your husband but most Peruvians I know would have little genetically in common with a "Tex Mex".

Is it that both live with large extended families?  In my experience, living in large extended families has more to do with poverty than coming from south of the border.  Certainly none of my immediate relations that come from mexico live in multi-generational families. 

If you are identifying people with large inter generational families as problems, then why not say that?

 

I would expect that poverty is probably a much bigger common denominator than being "Latino" is when it comes to COVID risk and transmission.  By not identifying the real cause, and focusing on some invented class of people, we run the risk of not addressing the real problems.

Scientists like to try to categorize, trying to put things together that they think should go together.  Groups for everybody, however they think people should be grouped.  it is in some way devisive, because not everybody fits into the same groups, as they see them.

i say we should burn their forms and revolt, again!  Or just do whatever we can to try to get them to think some more about WHY they should not do what they keep trying to do.

[pogi]

46 minutes ago, alter idem said:

In my ward, a lot of people do not sing, they just sit there. Is talking safe, it seems like talking would be just as dangerous as singing. So in a restaurant patrons will be talking so that's a lot of possibly contaminated air. In gyms, it's even worse, people are breathing heavily and filling the air with humid exhaling.  I don't understand why that is allowed but singing is dangerous?   This is what's so frustrating,  as some things are a threat but other possible threats are ignored?

I just want to see consistency and reason given some consideration.

The majority of members in every ward I have ever attended sing the hymns. You may be in an outlier ward, but I think the hymns in general are very popular.  Studies show that TB is spread more effectively by singing than anything else (even coughing, and definitely talking).  It tends to get bugs air-born very effectively with the strong projection and vibration of the vocal chords.  Combine that with deep breathing in and out, and it is a high risk activity, especially with a large group in an enclosed space.   We don't have studies yet (too early) showing the same with Covid, but we have seen more than sufficient evidence that singing is HIGHLY effective at spreading the virus based on infection rates in choirs all around the world.  We don't see that kind of spread where groups that size are just talking for short periods of time.

Risk vs benefit.  Gyms and restaurants support our economy, but even those places will not have 99 people in an enclosed space.  Groups of 20 to 50 talking softly in a restaurant is no comparison to 99 people singing all at once in a chapel. Can we go without businesses being open for extended periods without creating suffering?  No.  We have to balance economic risks with infection control.  It is a give and take scenario.  Can we go without singing in church without causing serious suffering?  Yes.  We can still have instrumental pieces and meditate on the lyrics.  When I weight the risk of singing hymns in church with the benefit, it is an easy answer for me.  Can you make a convincing argument that the benefit of singing hymns outweighs the risk of the virus?  I understand the risk of keeping business shut down.  I don't understand the risk of not singing in church for a while. 

I don't know if people understand the risks of singing, and that is what concerns me.  If people are aware of the risks, then I think they should have every right to get together and sing together if they feel ok with those risks -  away from others who want to go to church but do not want the increased risk that singing hymns poses. 

Edited May 21, 2020 by pogi

[longview]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is indeed an irony that the people who complain the most about nanny states and absolute freedom of choice despite danger to themselves and others almost inevitably show irresponsibility with that freedom and create the need for a nanny state.

I am stunned!  Are there actually people who object to 1-nanny states and 2-absolute freedom of choice?  First is authoritarian, the other is anarchic.  I must be having a cognitive dissonance.  

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I am surprised by you . This is why the country is so divided, you have decided that since I don't agree with you I must somehow be your enemy politically. 

 

Those who agree with him.  Those who don't.  Isn't that the way it is for everybody... on each separate issue?

Frankly I am surprised that you are surprised by The Nehor.  He has been the way he is for as long as I have known him.  And he has always disagreed with everyone on some issue or another, just as all of us do.

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

The whole covid thing is driven by the idea that some people should be able to control other people based on their extra intelligence and expertise.

Initially the children were supposed to stay in school because bringing them home would cause them to interact with vulnerable people because . . . 

Then, Schools had to close because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Small businesses had to close down because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Big businesses could stay open because . . .  no reason really, there would always be more people visiting big business than small business but Big businesses are just bigger

Don't use masks because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Masks are mandatory because . . .people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

You can't go to the park because obviously staying in an enclosed place with HVAC systems that circulate the air are more healthy  because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

 

Now people with extra intelligence and expertise are saying that immigrant populations and people of "other races" are more likely to have the virus. One more reason to stay away from those people.

Oh they justify their racism with demographic studies, their experiences and what they "know".

But it is still racism

 

 

 

you are free to take offense where ever you please.  you have created goal posts and moved goal posts in an apparent attempt to defend your offense.  Hopefully, you are otherwise having a good day. 

[pogi]

31 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You're exhaling more and harder when you sing than during a normal conversation. 

"When individuals sing, they project their voices. Powerful voices project droplets at far greater distances than does casual conversation."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/religious-gatherings-and-covid-19-why-singing-poses-additional-risk/ar-BB13vH8D

You are also inhaling deeper too.  All those particles being exhaled by other singers are being sucked in deep in the lungs.  Thanks for the article.  

[ksfisher]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are also inhaling deeper too.  All those particles being exhaled by other singers are being sucked in deep in the lungs.  Thanks for the article.  

Here's an even better one

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

[mtomm]

As someone who has been speaking with numerous stake presidents about this issue  I think we will be surprised at how each stake (and maybe even each ward) handles returning.  Some that really want to go back are going to be disappointed that their stake president is moving very slowly.  Others are going to be disappointed that their stake president will move quickly.  This is going vary WIDELY across the US and the world.  Some doctors in that position expressly indicated they will not be returning any time soon.  If you are looking forward to longer home church hope that you are in their stake! 

Stake presidents are being instructed to clean the meetinghouse between each meeting.  That is a daunting task when you consider that every surface that gets touched will need cleaning before the next group comes in.  And do you trust the ward before you to have actually cleaned good enough?  What if you find out the youth have been charged with this task?  There is just so much to consider that I think we are going to see this coming about much slower than seems after this announcement. 

What I really hope is that someone will be monitoring if outbreaks start to happen in areas that are back at church.  That will be interesting data. 

[CA Steve]

The solution to the racial remarks that some find offensive is quite simple. Instead of defining people as from a particular race you use the word lineage instead and all racism goes away. So it's okay to say people with Hispanic lineage are more cursed with Covid 19.

[Rain]

51 minutes ago, mtomm said:

As someone who has been speaking with numerous stake presidents about this issue  I think we will be surprised at how each stake (and maybe even each ward) handles returning.  Some that really want to go back are going to be disappointed that their stake president is moving very slowly.  Others are going to be disappointed that their stake president will move quickly.  This is going vary WIDELY across the US and the world.  Some doctors in that position expressly indicated they will not be returning any time soon.  If you are looking forward to longer home church hope that you are in their stake! 

Stake presidents are being instructed to clean the meetinghouse between each meeting.  That is a daunting task when you consider that every surface that gets touched will need cleaning before the next group comes in.  And do you trust the ward before you to have actually cleaned good enough?  What if you find out the youth have been charged with this task?  There is just so much to consider that I think we are going to see this coming about much slower than seems after this announcement. 

What I really hope is that someone will be monitoring if outbreaks start to happen in areas that are back at church.  That will be interesting data. 

Just curious if you are talking to the different SP because they happen to be your friends or family or if this comes from the calling or job you have?  If you don't feel comfortable sharing I understand.  

[Meadowchik]

56 minutes ago, mtomm said:

As someone who has been speaking with numerous stake presidents about this issue  I think we will be surprised at how each stake (and maybe even each ward) handles returning.  Some that really want to go back are going to be disappointed that their stake president is moving very slowly.  Others are going to be disappointed that their stake president will move quickly.  This is going vary WIDELY across the US and the world.  Some doctors in that position expressly indicated they will not be returning any time soon.  If you are looking forward to longer home church hope that you are in their stake! 

Stake presidents are being instructed to clean the meetinghouse between each meeting.  That is a daunting task when you consider that every surface that gets touched will need cleaning before the next group comes in.  And do you trust the ward before you to have actually cleaned good enough?  What if you find out the youth have been charged with this task?  There is just so much to consider that I think we are going to see this coming about much slower than seems after this announcement. 

What I really hope is that someone will be monitoring if outbreaks start to happen in areas that are back at church.  That will be interesting data. 

This seems like a really good reason to engage professional cleaners!