We're Headed Back to Church! Sorta.

[pogi]

44 minutes ago, Danzo said:

(like my "latino" family).

You racist!

[Danzo]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

The data is based on self-identification.  We ask every positive Covid case how they identify with race and ethnicity.  We can then take that data along with geographic data, to identify hot-spot communities and populations to target our response.  I guess you would accuse these people of being racist for self-identifying that way.  

So you are saying there really is no definition of "Hispanic/Latino" except what exists in peoples minds.  Somehow you think that something with no biological, cultural or behavioral definition can help you with a medical problem.  

You can't see the problem with that?

One of the biggest problems with racism is that people never see it in themselves.   They think that as long as they are nice to people of different races they can't be racists.  What they don't realize is that seeing people as different races is the problem. Race doesn't really exist except in the mind.  

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

You racist!

now you are starting to get it. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

So you are saying there really is no definition of "Hispanic/Latino" except what exists in peoples minds.  Somehow you think that something with no biological, cultural or behavioral definition can help you with a medical problem.  

You can't see the problem with that?

One of the biggest problems with racism is that people never see it in themselves.   They think that as long as they are nice to people of different races they can't be racists.  What they don't realize is that seeing people as different races is the problem. Race doesn't really exist except in the mind.  

Based on your definition, I am definitely racist.   I just don’t see a problem with it.

Yes, the data has been very helpful in our efforts, and the numbers are supporting that.

 

[Danzo]

46 minutes ago, pogi said:

So you are accusing the County, State, and Federal governments of being racist then?  We all divide ourselves and other people into those groups.  I am probably no more racist than you or the rest of the world in that regard.  It is critical to do so in public health to identify high-risk and outbreak populations.  There may be ethno-cultural or even genetically related reasons for outbreaks in different populations that have nothing to do with intelligence.  Having that data helps us direct our response in the most effective way.  Without it, we can't know where to throw water on hot spots.  It is considered best practice throughout the medical community and is approved by all medical ethical standards and is not considered "racist" in a derogatory way, as you are using the term towards me.

You accused me of judging their intelligence.  You should retract that.  If your only accusation is that I have correctly identified that we are not all the same and do actually have different ethnicities/race, and that some populations are at greater risk than others, than I am guilty as charged.  

yes, I am accusing the County, State and Federal governments of being racists.

You state there may be ethno-culturaly or genetically related reasons for outbreaks

the problem is that the way "Latino/ Hispanic" is commonly defined, doesn't have anything at all to do with genetics or culture. 

Someone who is  mixtec from mexico would not on average be any more closely related genetically to someone from puerto rico than anyone else in the US or Europe for that matter. 

Certainly their cultural would have very little in common.  

As far as their intelligence, perhaps I am wrong.  When you were worried that Spanish speaking wards in the west valley were vulnerable, were you saying that members of Spanish speaking wards were less capable than non Spanish speaking wards in determining and evaluating the risks of church attendance?

[strappinglad]

Personally, I am not going back to Church until Science has found a cure for Breathing. There seems to be a very strong correlation between breathing and getting this covid disease. Now I know that correlation does not mean causation but still. It is very curious that if one is breathing one can get the virus but if one is not breathing they probably have the virus. Counter-intuitive .

YES, I am being silly. Too many days listening to the news and the contradictory data. 

[Ahab]

12 minutes ago, Danzo said:

One of the biggest problems with racism is that people never see it in themselves.   They think that as long as they are nice to people of different races they can't be racists.  What they don't realize is that seeing people as different races is the problem. Race doesn't really exist except in the mind.  

According to many scientists, I am a member of the white race, as they define race.  Personally, I see myself and all other people as members of the human race, regardless of the color of anyone's skin.

It seems to me that people have different ideas about what the word "race" means.

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Based on your definition, I am definitely racist.   I just don’t see a problem with it.

Yes, the data has been very helpful in our efforts, and the numbers are supporting that.

 

That may be the problem,  you divide people into categories that you call "race". This category has individuals that have very little, in common genetically, culturally, linguistically or in any other meaningful way.

You keep patting yourself on the back that the data is helpful in your efforts, just like categorizing base on "race" has been helpful in identifying criminals, poor people and other types of "Other" that people feel they need to deal with. 

Once you have done that you can tell them how to take care of themselves, what is best for them and how helpful you are to them. 

[Ahab]

i'm still waiting for my new zoot suit to arrive in the mail.  I haven't figured out yet how I will partake of the sacrament when I get it.

[Danzo]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

According to many scientists, I am a member of the white race, as they define race.  Personally, I see myself and all other people as members of the human race, regardless of the color of anyone's skin.

It seems to me that people have different ideas about what the word "race" means.

What the heck does being part of the white race even mean from a scientific perspective.  Is there an accepted shade of skin color or melanin concentration?   Do you measure it before or after getting a tan?  What would it mean genetically, Why is white one race but people with darker skin get to be classified in to other races because of facial structure, where white people don't have to take facial features into account.

The whole thing is rather silly. 

It's like the plot of a star wars film. You can only enjoy it if you don't think about it too deeply. 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

As far as their intelligence, perhaps I am wrong.  When you were worried that Spanish speaking wards in the west valley were vulnerable, were you saying that members of Spanish speaking wards were less capable than non Spanish speaking wards in determining and evaluating the risks of church attendance?

No, I specified Spanish speaking wards in “West Valley” because the data shows that the Hispanic population in that geographic area is especially hard hit.  

10 minutes ago, Danzo said:

yes, I am accusing the County, State and Federal governments of being racists.

You state there may be ethno-culturaly or genetically related reasons for outbreaks

the problem is that the way "Latino/ Hispanic" is commonly defined, doesn't have anything at all to do with genetics or culture. 

Someone who is  mixtec from mexico would not on average be any more closely related genetically to someone from puerto rico than anyone else in the US or Europe for that matter. 

Certainly their cultural would have very little in common.  

 

You can say what you think, and I will tell you what I know based on making these calls every. single. day.  I KNOW that people are more likely than the general population to live in multigenerational homes if they self identify as Hispanic and live in West Valley.  I know exactly who lives in their homes.  I track them all.  I pay special attention and give extra education whenever I see it to protect household members at greater risk.  I don’t care what you think about not finding the data helpful or useful in deciphering cultural norms/trends/practices.  I know what I have experienced on the ground and nothing you say will convince me that I am wrong after speaking with thousands of people from every background and in every neck of the Valley.  

[provoman]

20 minutes ago, Danzo said:

As far as their intelligence, perhaps I am wrong.  When you were worried that Spanish speaking wards in the west valley were vulnerable, were you saying that members of Spanish speaking wards were less capable than non Spanish speaking wards in determining and evaluating the risks of church attendance?

perhaps you should re-read what was posted. Something seems to have struck a nerve and that appears to drive inserting bias/racism/intellectually superiority where there is none.

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Danzo said:

That may be the problem,  you divide people into categories that you call "race". This category has individuals that have very little, in common genetically, culturally, linguistically or in any other meaningful way.

You keep patting yourself on the back that the data is helpful in your efforts, just like categorizing base on "race" has been helpful in identifying criminals, poor people and other types of "Other" that people feel they need to deal with. 

Once you have done that you can tell them how to take care of themselves, what is best for them and how helpful you are to them. 

I don’t care what you think.  It is saving lives and making a difference.  We are not all the same.  It is helpful in many ways to acknowledge that.  It can be hurtful in other ways.  The benefits outweigh the risks in my mind, and the mind of just about every civil rights group and ethical standard that I know of.

According to you, the NCLR is a racist group!  According to you the church is financially supporting racist groups by donating to the NAACP.

 

[alter idem]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is absurd to identify as "snarky" or "smug" an insistence on professional responsibility.  I much prefer to listen to Dr Fauci, as I have for decades, than some yokel who will get us all killed as he carries on with his witless rambling nonsense.  I'm not willing to wait till its over to determine whether some fool was correct in his imbecilic assumptions.  But that's just me.  Others clearly have a variety of views.  Wisely did Plato worry about mobocracy.

I see where you are coming from. 

[Danzo]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, I specified Spanish speaking wards in “West Valley” because the data shows that the Hispanic population in that geographic area is especially hard hit.  

You can say what you think, and I will tell you what I know based on making these calls every. single. day.  I KNOW that people are more likely than the general population to live in multigenerational homes if they self identify as Hispanic and live in West Valley.  I know exactly who lives in their homes.  I track them all.  I pay special attention and give extra education whenever I see it to protect household members at greater risk.  I don’t care what you think about not finding the data helpful or useful in deciphering cultural norms/trends/practices.  I know what I have experienced on the ground and nothing you say will convince me that I am wrong after speaking with thousands of people from every background and in every neck of the Valley.  

If you were a cop you would probably pull them over more often because you know they commit crime at a higher rate. Nothing I could say would convince you that you were wrong after you had spoken to thousands of people and arrested hundreds of people of every background.

You would be right, of course, 

You would also be racist, because you would be judging people based on an artificial category. 

 

 

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

If you were a cop you would probably pull them over more often because you know they commit crime at a higher rate. Nothing I could say would convince you that you were wrong after you had spoken to thousands of people and arrested hundreds of people of every background.

You would be right, of course, 

You would also be racist, because you would be judging people based on an artificial category. 

Pulling someone over simply because they are of a certain race is very different from advertising and sending Spanish speaking mobile Covid testing services to a community because a life threatening outbreak has been identified in that population.

You are out of line. 

[alter idem]

Just got home and while I was out, I saw all the signs for businesses that are now open and the parking lots at 2/3 full. The malls are open! I think in my area it's therefore not unreasonable for churches to want to hold services again, as long as they are following the local guidelines.  If people can shop, go to restaurants,  the gym, etc, they can attend church,  if they choose to,  imo.

I personally am high risk so I will likely not go back till more accurate numbers come in as we continue to open up in.my area. That's seems the wise thing to do, but I'll be happy for those who have missed chapel church, that they can return.  

[Danzo]

14 minutes ago, provoman said:

perhaps you should re-read what was posted. Something seems to have struck a nerve and that appears to drive inserting bias/racism/intellectually superiority where there is none.

The whole covid thing is driven by the idea that some people should be able to control other people based on their extra intelligence and expertise.

Initially the children were supposed to stay in school because bringing them home would cause them to interact with vulnerable people because . . . 

Then, Schools had to close because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Small businesses had to close down because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Big businesses could stay open because . . .  no reason really, there would always be more people visiting big business than small business but Big businesses are just bigger

Don't use masks because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Masks are mandatory because . . .people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

You can't go to the park because obviously staying in an enclosed place with HVAC systems that circulate the air are more healthy  because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

 

Now people with extra intelligence and expertise are saying that immigrant populations and people of "other races" are more likely to have the virus. One more reason to stay away from those people.

Oh they justify their racism with demographic studies, their experiences and what they "know".

But it is still racism

 

 

 

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, Danzo said:

now you are starting to get it. 

You are insufferable.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Pulling someone over simply because they are of a certain race is very different from advertising and sending Spanish speaking mobile Covid testing services to a community because a life threatening outbreak has been identified in that population.

You are out of line. 

And when you find out their is more COVID there what are you going to do?

Funny how their always seems to be more covid where you send the covid testing services.

Not much covid reportedly where I am living (Even though people show symptoms, they cannot get tested because they don't meet the demographic requirements and they aren't severe)

Just because you find the virus where you test for it, doesn't mean the virus isn't where you are not testing for it. 

[Danzo]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You are insufferable.

Why, thank you,

I like you too. 

[The Nehor]

Just now, Danzo said:

The whole covid thing is driven by the idea that some people should be able to control other people based on their extra intelligence and expertise.

No, it is driven by a highly contagious and dangerous virus.

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

Initially the children were supposed to stay in school because bringing them home would cause them to interact with vulnerable people because . . . 

Then, Schools had to close because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

That never happened initially. The only question was whether children could be carriers at all. They closed because they would serve as hotbeds of virus transmission and people with intelligence and expertise figured that out.

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Small businesses had to close down because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Big businesses could stay open because . . .  no reason really, there would always be more people visiting big business than small business but Big businesses are just bigger

You do not see the difference between essential and non-essential business and instead sort on size?

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Don't use masks because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

Masks are mandatory because . . .people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

That was a debate in the beginning. It is now generally concluded that masks (the ones people build for themselves) provide little protection for the wearer but do mitigate the risk of the wearer infecting others.

5 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You can't go to the park because obviously staying in an enclosed place with HVAC systems that circulate the air are more healthy  because . . . people with extra intelligence and expertise said so.

You can't go to the park because you are then interacting and are closer to other people. A park is safer than an office building or a home for transmission but if you are at home under quarantine you minimize contact with others and have less chance of catching.

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Now people with extra intelligence and expertise are saying that immigrant populations and people of "other races" are more likely to have the virus. One more reason to stay away from those people.

No, it is concerning because more of them are essential workers and/or are more impoverished and have a harder time quarantining from others. A good question would be why so many essential jobs pay poverty wages.

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Oh they justify their racism with demographic studies, their experiences and what they "know".

But it is still racism

They justify the increased rates of infection by "the facts".

It is easy to deduce why you have such a crippling inferiority complex about intelligence and expertise.

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, alter idem said:

Just got home and while I was out, I saw all the signs for businesses that are now open and the parking lots at 2/3 full. The malls are open! I think in my area it's therefore not unreasonable for churches to want to hold services again, as long as they are following the local guidelines.  If people can shop, go to restaurants,  the gym, etc, they can attend church,  if they choose to,  imo.

The difference is that the rest of the population is mandated to limit group sizes to no more than 50 in yellow areas and no more than 20 in orange areas.   However, church (even in orange areas) have been approved to meet in groups of up to 99, singing together.  I don't pretend like the spread of this virus can be eliminated.  I do think economic suffering is a serious concern and needs to be balanced with the infectious disease response.  However, simply because we may need to open society in some ways, does not mean we should avoid all caution and begin to be negligent in other ways.  Singing in groups of 99 is not acceptable and is in fact against the law for the rest of society, why is it acceptable for churches?  It makes no sense. 

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

And when you find out their is more COVID there what are you going to do?

Funny how their always seems to be more covid where you send the covid testing services.

Not much covid reportedly where I am living (Even though people show symptoms, they cannot get tested because they don't meet the demographic requirements and they aren't severe)

Just because you find the virus where you test for it, doesn't mean the virus isn't where you are not testing for it. 

You are wrong, the numbers came first.   The response came second.  You are right, we are going to find more where we send testing services.  Over the short term-those numbers will increase, over the long term, they will come down to levels on par with the rest of the community due to contact tracing efforts based on test results.  We see that with the numbers.  They are starting to come down.  It worked. You can deny it all you want, but it is working. 

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Not much covid reportedly where I am living (Even though people show symptoms, they cannot get tested because they don't meet the demographic requirements and they aren't severe)

Do you live in Utah?  Where?  

You don't need "severe" symptoms to get tested.  Any one single symptom is enough (mild to severe), even if you just have a runny nose.  Perhaps we need to send some educational services your way.