We're Headed Back to Church! Sorta.

[cherryTreez]

21 hours ago, Danzo said:

What the heck does being part of the white race even mean from a scientific perspective.  Is there an accepted shade of skin color or melanin concentration?   Do you measure it before or after getting a tan?  What would it mean genetically, Why is white one race but people with darker skin get to be classified in to other races because of facial structure, where white people don't have to take facial features into account.

The whole thing is rather silly. 

It's like the plot of a star wars film. You can only enjoy it if you don't think about it too deeply. 

I am white race because I have Norwegian, Swedish, Irish and french ancestors. I can trace them back to 1200s and some lines to 800bc.   I have the DNA tests of my parents and siblings to show it as well. I would be perfectly fine being called Scandanvian. I am over 2/3 scandanvian.  

 

Oh and being whiter than white is part of it too. I can't find makeup light enough for my ghosty skin color. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, alter idem said:

I don't think I want to continue in this discussion,  it's bringing to me feelings of sad helplessness.  I have been wondering why, as I personally  don't really care if we go back to church (I could do home church indefinitely )  but others I know, who really miss church, are struggling without it.they need it to return. Missionary work needs it to return. 

   I came to realize the sad reality is that I don't miss my ward that much because I rarely hear inspired talks or lessons. The irony is, the times I do feel the spirit is occasionally during hymn singing. I'm frustrated to think that the one thing that has power to bring the spirit to my dull ward meetings could be removed. If there can be no singing at all,  I worry it will hurt the ability to feel the spirit.

If everything is so dangerous in enclosed places,  maybe our meetings should be outside in the parking lot, and shortened, until the fear of contagion subsides.  That would be a whole lot easier imo.

I'm sorry if I contributed to feelings of sadness and helplessness.  I too am a lover of music.  Besides meditation/prayer, music uplifts me spiritual more than anything else.  Going without church has not been a huge sacrifice for me, but like you, I greatly miss the hymns.  Music has always been a HUGE part of my life and I have missed singing with my ward family, and will continue to miss it greatly.   I think Rain said it best though, "there is a time and a season for everything".  I will add that "this too shall pass".  However, it is hard to convey the suffering I have seen from this virus, and it causes me great anxiety knowing what my church family will be unknowingly walking into.  It will happen.  Singing hymns will be responsible for more suffering than I care to think about.  There will be much larger and greater outbreaks because of it.    

What do I value most?  What am I willing to sacrifice in the short-term to protect those values in the long-term?  That is what we all have to ask ourselves.  It might be different for everybody, but I think people at least need to be aware and informed of the risk before walking into the chapel to sing hymns.   I fear that there will be more death and suffering in our church members world-wide caused by this decision than was caused by the bad decision to have the hand-cart company leave for Utah at the start of winter.  The voice of warning was ignored.  We look back and see that as an unfortunate decision that caused avoidable suffering and death.  I wonder how future generations will look back on this decision. The saddest part is that I simply think the decision makers don't fully understand the risk of singing. 

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by pogi

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'm sorry if I contributed to feelings of sadness and helplessness.  I too am a lover of music.  Besides meditation/prayer, music uplifts me spiritual more than anything else.  Going without church has not been a huge sacrifice for me, but like you, I greatly miss the hymns.  Music has always been a HUGE part of my life and I have missed singing with my ward family, and will continue to miss it greatly.   I think Rain said it best though, "there is a time and a season for everything".  I will add that "this too shall pass".  However, it is hard to convey the suffering I have seen from this virus, and it causes me great anxiety knowing what my church family will be unknowingly walking into.  It will happen.  Singing hymns will be responsible for more suffering than I care to think about.  There will be much larger and greater outbreaks because of it.    

What do I value most?  What am I willing to sacrifice in the short-term to protect those values in the long-term?  That is what we all have to ask ourselves.  It might be different for everybody, but I think people at least need to be aware and informed of the risk before walking into the chapel to sing hymns.   I fear that there will be more death and suffering in our church members world-wide caused by this decision than was caused by the bad decision to have the hand-cart company leave for Utah at the start of winter.  The voice of warning was ignored.  We look back and see that as an unfortunate decision that caused avoidable suffering and death.  I wonder how future generations will look back on this decision. The saddest part is that I simply think the decision makers don't fully understand the risk of singing. 

 

Music is the most spiritual part of church for me, and miss the most. Those are the times my tears flowed the most. So I get where alter idem is coming from as well. 

[Tacenda]

Well, Pres. Trump just gave a short press conference and said that churches need to open up this weekend and didn't want governors to intervene or he'd overrule them. Scary, if the churches aren't careful. Does the president have rights to overrule governors, maybe a dumb question.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

 

[pogi]

Does anyone have a link to Dr Birx's presentation.  The video stopped just as it was getting good.  I am very eager to see CDC guidelines.  Fingers crossed!

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, cherryTreez said:

I am white race because I have Norwegian, Swedish, Irish and french ancestors. I can trace them back to 1200s and some lines to 800bc.   I have the DNA tests of my parents and siblings to show it as well. I would be perfectly fine being called Scandanvian. I am over 2/3 scandanvian.  

 

Oh and being whiter than white is part of it too. I can't find makeup light enough for my ghosty skin color. 

How does does having light skin color make you related to people from Turkey, Italy, or Afganistan. who also have light skin color and are considered by many people to be "White"?

[JAHS]

50 minutes ago, pogi said:

Does anyone have a link to Dr Birx's presentation.  The video stopped just as it was getting good.  I am very eager to see CDC guidelines.  Fingers crossed!

Here's the entire new conference.

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by JAHS

[pogi]

47 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's the entire new conference.

 

Thanks JAHS!

I thought she would address the guidelines but she only very vaguely mentioned them at the end.  I can' find the guidelines anywhere on-line.   All I can find is this:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/guidance-community-faith-organizations.html

That can't be it though because that was last reviewed on March 23, and these are supposed to be new guidelines that they are putting out. 

Anybody know where to find the guidelines?

[cherryTreez]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

How does does having light skin color make you related to people from Turkey, Italy, or Afganistan. who also have light skin color and are considered by many people to be "White"?

I have viking ancestors. I am pretty sure they mixed with people from all over.   

I am also fine being called Scandanvian. My husband is English and dutch. It gets messy if our kids have to throw all nations in to what they are. 

I also don't understand why this is such a big deal. Should we start going off blood types and IQ numbers?  That may tell a lot about people too. 

I have had nurses and doctors tell me things about my body based on my coloring, hair, eyes and skin. I think it's amazing that they can do that. 

 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Solves everything!

Helps, doesn’t solve. It is important to be accurate to avoid confusion. 

[rockpond]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, Pres. Trump just gave a short press conference and said that churches need to open up this weekend and didn't want governors to intervene or he'd overrule them. Scary, if the churches aren't careful. Does the president have rights to overrule governors, maybe a dumb question.

I don't know if POTUS can overrule governors.

I've been an advocate of a faster reopening but even I feel that a blanket full-scale reconvening of churches is ill advised.  It would seem irresponsible, to me, for us to have our ward meet without restrictions this Sunday (250+ attendance would mean no social distancing).

Fortunately, our church leaders have already given us good counsel and direction on this.

[Rain]

Just talked with my missionary son.  They are now going to have sacrament meeting in their districts, but they are not allowed to sing.  

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Thanks JAHS!

I thought she would address the guidelines but she only very vaguely mentioned them at the end.  I can' find the guidelines anywhere on-line.   All I can find is this:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/guidance-community-faith-organizations.html

That can't be it though because that was last reviewed on March 23, and these are supposed to be new guidelines that they are putting out. 

Anybody know where to find the guidelines?

Here it is (last reviewed May 22):

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/faith-based.html

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Here it is (last reviewed May 22):

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/php/faith-based.html

 

Thank you!

From the guidelines:

Quote

Consider suspending or at least decreasing use of a choir/musical ensembles and congregant singing, chanting, or reciting during services or other programming, if appropriate within the faith tradition. The act of singing may contribute to transmission of COVID-19, possibly through emission of aerosols.

That is softer language than I like, but maybe it needs to be to accommodate all faith practices.  At least leaders and members can now be informed of the risk from a reliable source.  I hope the church decides to amend their guidelines they have already sent out to encourage wards to suspend singing - there is no reason that would be considered inappropriate in our faith tradition.  If not, I encourage you to all forward this to your local bishops and Stake presidents, encouraging them to implement the guidelines and suspend singing hymns.  

Edited May 22, 2020 by pogi

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

I don't know if POTUS can overrule governors.

I've been an advocate of a faster reopening but even I feel that a blanket full-scale reconvening of churches is ill advised.  It would seem irresponsible, to me, for us to have our ward meet without restrictions this Sunday (250+ attendance would mean no social distancing).

Fortunately, our church leaders have already given us good counsel and direction on this.

Well you just answered your own question. I don't think they meant for total opening of churches like they were before without restrictions. Let the local church leaders make the rules.

[BlueDreams]

On 5/21/2020 at 2:28 PM, Danzo said:

 

One of the problems I see is that people use racism is a pejorative to the point that no one wants to talk about what it really is.   I don't think racism is any worse than other human faults and perhaps the term is inflammatory, but I don't know of a non flammatory word to use.

Judging people and categorizing people base on perceived differences is what racism is.  Its not just doing bad things to people because of race, but seeing people as race. 

this discussion likely moved on in many ways and I haven’t had a lot if time to read. I do agree that racism is not somehow worse than any other human fault or sin. It just happens to be one with a lot of baggage tied to it. But I don’t think simply categorizing people is in an of itself racist. It can lead to racism, yes and is often a legacy of racism...but it can still be helpful in a system that still hold disparities and connections based on race or ethnicity that would need addressing before equality can be met. How one is judging is more indicative of racism than judgment in itself. Say you have someone african american in a doctor’s office and they know that there is a higher tendency for sickle cell in said group when a person is coming in for pain issues. So the doc asks briefly if there’s any family history for said disease. That’s not racist, IMO, it’s based on medical research and is screening for any likely avenues for pain. Say you have another african-american who enters a doctor’s office and they are complaining about pain often screaming in pain when someone touches Their abdomen... but the doctor assumes it’s no big detail because they “know” black people often exaggerate things and are loud. That’s racist. Their “knowledge” is based on stereotype and is reducing the quality of care. 
 

>>>>>I have no doubt that you have relations that see themselves as "Latino", but what does a "Tex Mex" and a man from Peru really have in common other than someone put a label on them (or they put it on themselves).  

Is it the language?  Then I should be classified with people from India, Nigeria and Ghana. (The accent may be different, but no more so than a Tex Mex accent and a Peruvian accent)

Is it Genetics?  I don't know about your husband but most Peruvians I know would have little genetically in common with a "Tex Mex".

Is it that both live with large extended families?  In my experience, living in large extended families has more to do with poverty than coming from south of the border.  Certainly none of my immediate relations that come from mexico live in multi-generational families. 

If you are identifying people with large inter generational families as problems, then why not say that? <<<<<

 

I think, in some aspects living in the US gives the similarities shared more meaning and something a little more unifying in the face of a system that is still systematically unfair or grappling from historical discriminatory policies. In other ways, yyou are right...there is more distinctions within ingroups that broad categories often miss. My husband and step-father likely share a mix of amerinidan and iberian ancestry, Spanish as their first language (though my step cant speak it well any longer), and a general understanding of spanish music genres. But that is likely the end of their similarities. In some ways my husband relates more with my immigrant bio dad and step mom, though they’re from nigeria, in terms of expectations and experiences. (Ps. The diff between english in accents i’d say is a little bigger than peru and mexico...maybe peru and the DR.Sometimes I don’t understand my father on the phone, the accent is THICK. And pigeon english is probably more comparable to english as creole is to french.) groups and categories definitely blur and intermingle. BUT It can still be useful and communities often form around said groups. 
 

I would expect that poverty is probably a much bigger common denominator than being "Latino" is when it comes to COVID risk and transmission.  By not identifying the real cause, and focusing on some invented class of people, we run the risk of not addressing the real problems.

I would expect it to be a number of factors put together that are more likely to occur in the Latino population in west valley...poverty, multigenerational families, higher amounts of essential worker jobs, population density, etc. AND sense communities often cluster around shared identities where there are group settings (spanish-speaking church services, markets catering to spanish-speakers, etc), it can be important to state what specific ethnic/racial groups are currently being effected, to help them decide what perameters are best for community events.

 

(on my phone. Too lazy to fix trhe formatting) 

 

with luv,

BD 

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, Pres. Trump just gave a short press conference and said that churches need to open up this weekend and didn't want governors to intervene or he'd overrule them. Scary, if the churches aren't careful. Does the president have rights to overrule governors, maybe a dumb question.

No, he does not. The President has been reminded of this repeatedly and sometimes he acknowledges that the governors make these calls but then his ego kicks in and he goes back to ignoring the actual law and delusionally thinking he can issue any order he likes. Everyone should return the favor and ignore him and let him get back to poisoning himself.

Edited May 23, 2020 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Just an FYI that might have potential. Yesterday the repairman told me about this, now being produced here in the UK.  It is a fabric made into a scarf-like mask that supposedly deactivates viruses on contact: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8193223/The-snood-mask-infection.html  Things like this might make a big difference for some of us. Company link: https://www.wearwell.co.uk/british-workwear-manufacturer-wearwell-makes-anti-virus-snoods/

I am very dubious. Tried several google searches and have not been able to find any positive independent reviews. The marketing talks about all these scientists that developed it and have been researching it without any specifics. Their 96% effectiveness stat does not seem supported by any actual data.

I did find customer reviews and many describe it as cheaply made and already falling apart. The more positive reviews seem to focus on how it makes them feel safer. They do seem to have a good marketing department and are good at search engine optimization.

The only scientist I see actively talking about it is the company director. Lots of talk about leading academic institutions and world-renowned scientists without naming any names. The reference on the page selling them mostly lists news articles talking about it and I did not see any links to anything with testing methodologies. While this would be understandable if the tech was new this was supposedly being worked on for years to block influenza transmission and yet after years they have no test data? 

Ah, found that they were collaborating with Manchester University. Articles from 2016 on the university website show early tests showed some success with influenza (doubting that 96% of viruses die immediately stat) but presumably due to the hype the university added a disclaimer to their articles to make it clear it was never tested with COVID-19. I am gonna guess this is opportunistic misleading marketing of an unproven product.

Edited May 23, 2020 by The Nehor

[longview]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, he does not. The President has been reminded of this repeatedly and sometimes he acknowledges that the governors make these calls

The US Constitution trumps lockdown schemes.  We should NOT live in such abject fear of the pandemic.  It is not even 1/4 as bad as the 1918 influenza.  It is now time to allow herd immunity to take effect.  Reasonable measures can still be used to mitigate the transmission but one way or the other nature will take its course.  Side effects of the lockdown are the increasing number of suicides, disruption of schools/education, devastation of SMALL businesses (economic backbone of the nation), etc.

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

and let him get back to poisoning himself.

Hydroxychloroquine with zinc are proving to have positive effects in clinical studies.  Not only here in the US but in several other countries around the world.  Those eager to ratchet economic freedom ever downward have a vested interest in propagandizing against solutions that might be a better alternative to the so-called vaccine (which may NOT actually be available many months, if ever).

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, he does not. The President has been reminded of this repeatedly and sometimes he acknowledges that the governors make these calls but then his ego kicks in and he goes back to ignoring the actual law and delusionally thinking he can issue any order he likes. Everyone should return the favor and ignore him and let him get back to poisoning himself.

Politics. 

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am very dubious. Tried several google searches and have not been able to find any positive independent reviews. The marketing talks about all these scientists that developed it and have been researching it without any specifics. Their 96% effectiveness stat does not seem supported by any actual data.

I did find customer reviews and many describe it as cheaply made and already falling apart. The more positive reviews seem to focus on how it makes them feel safer. They do seem to have a good marketing department and are good at search engine optimization.

The only scientist I see actively talking about it is the company director. Lots of talk about leading academic institutions and world-renowned scientists without naming any names. The reference on the page selling them mostly lists news articles talking about it and I did not see any links to anything with testing methodologies. While this would be understandable if the tech was new this was supposedly being worked on for years to block influenza transmission and yet after years they have no test data? 

Ah, found that they were collaborating with Manchester University. Articles from 2016 on the university website show early tests showed some success with influenza (doubting that 96% of viruses die immediately stat) but presumably due to the hype the university added a disclaimer to their articles to make it clear it was never tested with COVID-19. I am gonna guess this is opportunistic misleading marketing of an unproven product.

Well, of course I am dubious too. I was ready to order some (especially for my parents who will continue to self-isolate as their state opens) but I could not do so without further support. Independent scientific review is exactly what I want to see, as well. What interests me as a layman is that the theory seems clever and suggests that there is potential in this line of product research and development. It would be great to have safe vaccine-killing fabrics available to the public and to medical providers. There are many more products out there that seek to have similar properties, however, I'll need to do more research to evaluate their legitimacy, too. Still, though, I find these possibilities encouraging.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, longview said:

The US Constitution trumps lockdown schemes.  We should NOT live in such abject fear of the pandemic.  It is not even 1/4 as bad as the 1918 influenza.  It is now time to allow herd immunity to take effect.  Reasonable measures can still be used to mitigate the transmission but one way or the other nature will take its course.  Side effects of the lockdown are the increasing number of suicides, disruption of schools/education, devastation of SMALL businesses (economic backbone of the nation), etc.

Hydroxychloroquine with zinc are proving to have positive effects in clinical studies.  Not only here in the US but in several other countries around the world.  Those eager to ratchet economic freedom ever downward have a vested interest in propagandizing against solutions that might be a better alternative to the so-called vaccine (which may NOT actually be available many months, if ever).

It appears that the inspired founders of the Constitution also supported lockdown measures, during the yellow fever outbreak. As well as the church leadership during the current pandemic. (Trying to keep this on topic, fwiw.) From law professor Prof. Ed Richards, M.P.H and J.D.:

 

Quote

 

While there was a high background level of infectious diseases such as malaria, it was the periodic epidemics that threatened public order. Ten percent of the population of Philadelphia died of yellow fever between September and November, 1793. There were similar outbreaks throughout the colonial period of yellow fever, smallpox, cholera, and typhoid fever.

 

Colonial boards of health may have been the first administrative agencies in the US. They exercised Draconian powers that were rooted in English law. The English statutory and common law recognized the right of the state to quarantine and limit the movement of plague carriers. Blackstone observed that disobeying quarantine orders merited severe punishments, including death. The argument of counsel in Smith v. Turner, 48 U.S. 283, 340-41 (1849) described measures to control a yellow fever outbreak in Philadelphia:

For ten years prior, the yellow-fever had raged almost annually in the city, and annual laws were passed to resist it. The wit of man was exhausted, but in vain. Never did the pestilence rage more violently than in the summer of 1798. The State was in despair. The rising hopes of the metropolis began to fade. The opinion was gaining ground, that the cause of this annual disease was indigenous, and that all precautions against its importation were useless. But the leading spirits of that day were unwilling to give up the city without a final desperate effort. The havoc in the summer of 1798 is represented as terrific. The whole country was roused. A cordon sanitaire was thrown around the city. Governor Mifflin of Pennsylvania proclaimed a non- intercourse between New York and Philadelphia.

These powers are classic police powers, exercised by the states. While they were not at direct issue in Smith, the power to quarantine ships was upheld against commerce clause and foreign affairs challenges in Morgan's Steamship Co. v. Louisiana Board of Health (1886). The power to establish cordons sanitaire was upheld in Compagnie Francaise de Navigation a Vapeur v. Board of Health of State of Louisiana (1902). The right of the state to require vaccination was upheld in Jacobson v. Massachusetts (1905).

 

 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Meadowchik

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, he does not. The President has been reminded of this repeatedly and sometimes he acknowledges that the governors make these calls but then his ego kicks in and he goes back to ignoring the actual law and delusionally thinking he can issue any order he likes. Everyone should return the favor and ignore him and let him get back to poisoning himself.

🤣 

[MustardSeed]

If I were a bishop I’d play video of the tab choir during usual song time