how is conference?

[juliann]

5 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Yes. Insofar as the Church does tangible, practical things, obviously it does some good in the world. The point is that these are no different than secular organizations; meanwhile, the Church claims that it has divine help. There is simply zero evidence that this is actually the case. If Priesthood blessings had any actual healing power, we would not have pictures like the one above. This girl talking right now about her surgery describes it as a trial that made her stronger; that might be the case for her, but how does it make someone stronger to die in agony of Ebola? What 'lesson' do we learn except the tautology that 'pain hurts'? It's obscene to hear people claim that God answers these trivial prayers when we have direct evidence that He does not answer the prayers of people who are dying in agony. 

This is THE difficult question. But this is a theodicy problem that all believers must tackle. I can only speak of my personal experience where I think God has provided me great comfort, in the sense of suffering with me, during a tragedy.

But to be honest, all I could think of was the Easter Bunny during the whole thing. I just know he is going to pop out of that horrid backdrop of unmowed grass. It is a greater travesty of nature each year. We have gone from tossed salad, to tree stumps (took me two sessions to figure that one out) to who fired the gardener? I'm hoping for the miracle of the lawnmower tomorrow.

[Calm]

I am starting to look forward to conference just for your comments about the landscaping.

[Traela]

Only 90 minutes for the Priesthood session?

 

[SteveO]

Duplicate 

Edited April 3, 2016 by SteveO

[Ginger Snaps]

17 minutes ago, Traela said:

Only 90 minutes for the Priesthood session?

 

I was wondering about that too. I just finished watching it with my husband and son. The General Women's Session usually only goes 90 minutes, but Priesthood usually goes two hours right?  I'm curious if that was planned or not.  The talks were great though, and the arrangement of that final hymn left me choked up. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I loved seeing Monson speak again, even if it was only a very short talk. I found it interesting that Russell M Nelson, President Uchtdorf, and President Eyring all talked about eternal families and or Celestial marriage. I loved President Uchtdorf's line that "If there was such thing as a perfect woman, do you really think she would go for you?"

[gopher]

2 hours ago, Dgal said:

Thus far, nothing has stood out that is atypical from most other conferences. So I would say, status quo. 

I was surprised none of the exciting news that was all over the Internet yesterday was mentioned.  Starbucks in the temples, the additional hour added to the 3 hour Sunday block.  Oh well, maybe we'll hear about it tomorrow.

[Deborah]

It seems the talks focused on using Priesthood power, not just for healing but in every aspect of life. Was so happy to see Pres. Monson speak, if only for a brief time.

 

[JAHS]

34 minutes ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I loved seeing Monson speak again, even if it was only a very short talk. I found it interesting that Russell M Nelson, President Uchtdorf, and President Eyring all talked about eternal families and or Celestial marriage. I loved President Uchtdorf's line that "If there was such thing as a perfect woman, do you really think she would go for you?"

I think because of his age and health he decided to keep it short. He may have planned to speak longer but kept open an option to make it shorter if he wasn't feeling up to it.  The Oct Conference he really struggled to get through his talk.

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

To those who are claiming that they have personally seen miraculous healings, could you please describe these instances in detail, without retreating into the convenient 'too sacred to talk about ' cop-out? Because I predict that in every single case, the only evidence that the healing was predicated on a Priesthood blessing or prayer will be correlation, not causation. Not to be a cliche, but 'God doesn't heal amputees'. If we're going to go the Alma 14 route and claim that God is fine with standing by watching while innocents are burned alive, and then in the very next chapter Alma and Amulek go to Sidon and use God's Priesthood to heal a mere fever, that is one scary God. 

KJV Psalms 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

JST Psalms 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no man that hath seen God. Because he showeth himself not unto us, therefore there is no God. Behold, they are corrupt; they have done abominable works, and none of them doeth good."

I like the JST version as it explains why the person is a fool.  A person is not a fool simply because they say there is no God.  There can be a lot of reasons why they may say that which does not make theme a fool.  The JST explains they are fools by their foolish logic that there is no God because they have not seen God themselves.  As if to say they think of themselves as so important that if God existed, he would show himself to them.  You are of the same mindset.  You don't believe in miracles because you have not experienced them.  If a miracle did happen, the clearly you would have seen it because you are very important individual who is worthy and  important enough to be involved in such things.  What I will offer you, since you clearly think of yourself as great and wonderful the most objective evidence that I can give you on a miracle healing.  It comes from a 19th century non-LDS group who visited Joseph Smith and recorded in a non-LDS Campbellite publication.  There is no reason for the writer to exaggerate the events described.  They simply record what they experienced.    You however will probably just ignore it since if it did happen, you would have been present to witness it since you clearly are an important individual.

"Ezra Booth, of Mantua, a Methodist preacher of much more than ordinary culture, and with strong natural ablities, in company with his wife, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, and some other citizens of this place (Hiram), visited Smith at his home in Kirkland, in 1831. Mrs. Johnson had been afflicted for some time with a lame arm, and was not at the time of the visit able to lift her hand to her head.  The party visited Smith partly out of curiosity, and partly to see for themselves what there might be in the new doctrine.  During the interview, the conversation turned on the subject of supernatural gifts, such as were conferred in the days of the apostles.  Someone said. "Here is Mrs. Johnson with a lame arm; has God given any power to men now on the earth to cure her?"  A few moments later, when the conversation had turned in another direction, Smith rose, and walking across the room, taking Mrs. Johnson by the hand, said in the most solemn and impressive manner: "Woman, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I command thee to be whole," and immediately left the room.

The company were awe-stricken at the infinte presumption of the man, and the calm assurance with which he spoke.  The sudden mental and moral shock-I know not how better to explain the well-attested fact-electrified the rheumatic arm-Mrs. Johnson at once lifted it up with ease, and on her return home the next she was able to do her washing without difficulty or pain." (A.S. Hayden, "Early History of the Disciples of the Western Reserve, [Cincinnati: Chase and Hall, 1876], p. 250)

 

 

[Bobbieaware]

10 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

You're right. God's representatives from the One True Church whose words are scripture promise the world that the Lord will lock us out of Heaven unless we perform particular arbitrary rituals, and so mercifully takes the time to send down Elijah (a mass-murderer who killed 555 people) to restore the Keys, rather than heal the victims of Ebola, and any dissatisfaction we might feel about this state of affairs is due to disgruntled entitlement and murmuring and childish whining like Laman and Lemuel who distanced themselves from grace by their derisive skepticism. 

I still find it mystifying why those who leave the Church because they find it morally and spiritually deficient just don't make a clean break. leave it all behind, and start a happy, emotionally healthy new life far away from the people and things they find so offensive. It's like the stories you hear about restless ghosts who can't successfully transition to the spirit world because of some haunting traumatic experience they had while living in mortality. The only explanation that makes sense is that, in spite of the bitterness, there still might be a nagging fear the Church might be true.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I still find it mystifying why those who leave the Church because they find it morally and spiritually deficient just don't make a clean break. leave it all behind, and start a happy, emotionally healthy new life far away from the people and things they find so offensive. It's like the stories you hear about restless ghosts who can't successfully transition to the spirit world because of some haunting traumatic experience they had while living in mortality. The only explanation that makes sense is that, in spite of the bitterness, there still might be a nagging fear the Church might be true.

Along with that nagging fear they will tear the church down and find every perceived fault possible for a further justification in their minds for leaving it. The problem is with that nagging fear they won't ever be able to cut it loose and stop fighting it. Bringing others along with them will make them feel more right about what they are doing. 

 

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Yes, I have an issue with the idea of God. It's good that the Church sends aid to people in need; it is not good that Priesthood holders claim to have a magical healing power that in practice is no different than the placebo effect, giving false hope to suffering people. Of course I want a God to heal everyone; He promises to eventually, why not now? What conceivable 'purpose' is served by having people splattered into unrecognizable piles of entrails in car accidents? The scriptures say that God pulled up Elijah - a man who murdered 555 people - into Heaven without even tasting death. The scriptures claim that Christ healed innumerable people.

I really don't think I'm the one failing to see the big picture, here.

Edit: this was to Deborah. 

Strappingland: Ebola is no different than the other horrors that have happened in history. That's the point. God didn't do anything then, He doesn't do anything now. It's up to us If this life is all there is, that makes it infinitely more precious and important that we not anesthetize ourselves to the suffering of others, resting complacently in the assurance that someone in the sky will make it all right in the end. We have to make it right. 

Point 1: Yep it's up to us. That is exactly why we are here. What are you doing about it? What am I doing about it?

Point 2: You forgot the rest of the magical stuff. D&C 42: 46 And it shall come to pass that those that die in me shall not taste of death, for it shall be sweet unto them;

[Kenngo1969]

12 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Edit: this was to JAHS:

All you're proving is that the concept of God is completely incoherent and contradictory. The scriptures say one thing, then another. ...

Perhaps, but then we (all of us, even those of us whose contributions have made it into canonized scripture) don't see God as He is, we see Him as we are.

[Hamba Tuhan]

14 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

I sincerely doubt, by the way, that anyone in this thread has actually seen anyone healed by the Priesthood, though of course, statistically, there might be a slight few occurrences of people getting better for causally-unrelated reasons.

I have seen sight restored to the blind and life restored to the dead, but no doubt those things were just going to happen anyway.

Besides, if I were you, I wouldn't for one second believe me.

[cdowis]

22 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

... the Church claims that it has divine help. There is simply zero evidence that this is actually the case.

I joined the church over 40 years ago, and I have seen and experienced miracles.  But here is the issue for those who have themselves never had a spiritual experience.

In science, knowledge is shared in peer reviewed journals.  But our Lord has told us not to give that which is holy to the ungodly, not to cast our pearls before those who mock, "lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

I appreciate that you have never experienced what you call "evidence", that you have not had a deep and profound spiritual experience.  Dawkins' response to such experiences are "you are a liar", or to dismiss it as a hallucination (these are quotes directly from his youtube videos). 

But let me share this experience from someone with whom you may be acquainted.  Dr. James White has an antiMormon ministry with books,  videos and training seminars.  He is very knowledgeable of our teachings and doctrines.  In one of these training seminars, he related an experience, and made it clear that it regarded it as authentic.  He offered no explanation, simply saying that it was "not Biblical"

I suggest that you listen to Elder Uchtdorf's talk in the Sunday Session. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by cdowis

[Gray]

21 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

You're right. God's representatives from the One True Church whose words are scripture promise the world that the Lord will lock us out of Heaven unless we perform particular arbitrary rituals, and so mercifully takes the time to send down Elijah (a mass-murderer who killed 555 people) to restore the Keys, rather than heal the victims of Ebola, and any dissatisfaction we might feel about this state of affairs is due to disgruntled entitlement and murmuring and childish whining like Laman and Lemuel who distanced themselves from grace by their derisive skepticism. 

I'll just leave this here (a quote from a Jewish Rabbi based in Seattle):

 

Quote

While we can understand that such threats might be designed to inspire adherence to community standards, it is challenging to believe that there is a Deity who rewards and punishes in these ways. From our standpoint, such a God who rewards and punishes seems a projection of our own ego consciousness onto the universe. Reward and punishment, as motivations for proper thought and action, are ego functions, reflections of the way we teach our children before they are ready to better understand and to make their own choices and decisions.

 

If there were a God who could respond to human actions in this way, that God would have stopped the Shoah, the Holocaust, long before six million of us were murdered. That God would prevent natural disasters that claim thousands of innocents across the planet.

 

In some ways, we might wish such a system of clear rewards and punishments operated in our world, but that would render us always children, never growing to take responsibility for our own life choices. The process of evolution would be eclipsed by the need to adhere to unchanging rules and regulations.

One can leave childish, fundamentalist notions about God without rejecting God altogether.

[Rain]

My 14yo told me he didn't want to come to family gatherings dressed as Chewbaca. I have to watch Elder Uchtdorf's talk to know what that means he told me.  I look forward  to doing that tomorrow. 

Edited April 3, 2016 by Rain

[Traela]

A temple in Zimbabwe!!!

 

[Jeanne]

15 hours ago, gopher said:

I was surprised none of the exciting news that was all over the Internet yesterday was mentioned.  Starbucks in the temples, the additional hour added to the 3 hour Sunday block.  Oh well, maybe we'll hear about it tomorrow.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

I'll just leave this here (a quote from a Jewish Rabbi based in Seattle):

 

One can leave childish, fundamentalist notions about God without rejecting God altogether.

Very sad.

I thought he was beyond this.  I do not know what happened.  Cog dis, I suspect.

[boblloyd91]

Did anyone notice more sacred experiences were shared at this conference? I'm thinking especially of Elder Nelson's talk last night

[The Nehor]

On April 2, 2016 at 0:18 PM, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Platitudes, moral vacuity, and faith-promoting stories about God taking the time to miraculously find lost keys while the Ebola virus rages elsewhere. 

Why then do you spend your time seething in impotent rage and loudly posting about your pathetic childish whining instead of doing something productive like curing Ebola or building a key-detecting mechanism to make the world a better place?

[Nevo]

Kennedy once said of Robert Frost that "he brought an unsparing instinct for reality to bear on the platitudes and pieties of society. His sense of the human tragedy fortified him against self-deception and easy consolation." I, for one, have always appreciated Jeremy's posts here, and continue to value his perspective even (and especially) where it might contradict my own views.

Watching conference this weekend, I am reminded once again how much I value Dieter F. Uchtdorf. He is a lifeline for me in the Church. I can't fathom why Deseret Book hasn't published a collection of his talks yet, but when they do, I hope they issue it on gold plates.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Nevo

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Wow, the ideas in Oaks' talk and their implications were downright horrific, especially coming right after the great talk on the refugees.