how is conference?

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

You don't know where God is not.  It felt rather judgmental to me.  Jeremy has his own path in life.  Have faith that he too is on a path God needs him to go down. 

I know He's not where Jeremy is. God is not rage and mockery.  If he's looking for God there he won't find Him.  That's not judgement. It's guidance.  God loves Jeremy and he is worthy of hearing truth.

Some paths are wrong.  I know you don't like to hear that because you think it makes you prideful or self righteous or something. But it doesn't.

We can disagree on which paths those are but we can't believe in God and then claim there is no Satan, that there is no wrong path.  God was telling the truth when He taught His prophet that there must be opposition in all things.

 

[Okrahomer]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

Stuns me at times how different people hear the same words.  This should be old news to me by now, but still every now and then I feel like I am getting hit between the eyes with that reality of human communication.

I'm with you....it is stunning.

[Sleeper Cell]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

You don't know where God is not.  It felt rather judgmental to me.  Jeremy has his own path in life.  Have faith that he too is on a path God needs him to go down. 

A pity that Jeremy refuses to extend the same consideration to others.  For example, to those faithful members of the Church, who, for some inexplicable reason, found conference to be spiritually uplifting.

IIRC, wasn’t this thread started by a church member who wasn’t able to hear the LDS conference and simply wanted a few posts to keep him informed?   To this simple request, Jeremy responded with a bitter judgmental diatribe against God and the LDS church.  A diatribe he kept up for several pages.  

BTW, Bluebell has never struck me as “judgmental.”  Neither have Garden Girl, Calm, Raingirl, Okrahomer, or several of the other posters who have taken issue with Jeremy’s diatribe

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I find it incredibly fascinating that anyone can read the scriptures and manage to come to the conclusion that God is anything but a sadistic psychopath who is the supreme First Cause archetype of 'rage and mockery'. In the past few weeks, I did a reread of the entirety of the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Qur'an. They are absolutely soaked in the bloodshed God commanded. The entire point of most of the writers is that God is the biggest baddest mofo around. Consider: 

Psalms 2:4 says that "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath." Other Psalms have David (or whoever) praising God for how well He breaks the teeth of his enemies, breaks their arms, shoots them with arrows, rains snares, fire, brimstone, horrible tempests, gives David the necks of his enemies, subdues the people and nations under his feet, and allows the 'righteous' to rejoice and wash their feet in the blood of the wicked. In Exodus, God commands Moses to slaughter 3,000 people, nicely comparable to the number of people who died on 9/11. Elsewhere, the best way God can imagine to symbolize a covenant with His people is to mutilate the genitals of little boys and mark their privates as His private property. In Exodus, He is perfectly fine with slavery. He teams up with Satan and allows Job to be tortured. He lets Jezebel get eaten by dogs. He believes in capital punishment for extremely dangerous crimes, such as picking up sticks on the wrong day. The beloved Aaronic Priesthood is given to Phinehas after he runs a javelin through an amorous couple (a nice warm 'n' fuzzy image that Brigham Young picked up to describe how he would treat one of his many, many wives). The Prophetess Deborah and Barak sing a jubilant song rejoicing over how Jael nailed a spike through a man's face. God helps Jephthah kill innumerable people on the legalistic condition that afterwards, he go through with performing a human sacrifice of his own virgin daughter. Speaking of virgins, Ezekiel the Prophetic Pornographer describes God as an abusive polygamist who smacks around His slutty metaphorical wives. He smites ark-steadiers who were just trying to help. He lets King David cut people with saws and harrows of iron, and axes. He messes with Abraham's mind repeatedly. He smites the innocent firstborn Egyptians. He sends plagues like a bioterrorist. He causes famine and starvation. When God isn't giving Divine Revelation on absolutely banal minutia in the D&C, He's threatening people with Hellfire if they don't do what Joseph says. In Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, Isaiah 9, 13, 49, Jeremiah 19, and Ezekiel 5, God commands people to EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS. And all this, of course, is not even considering the endless wars and genocides God commands and takes part in. 

I am not taking these verses out of context; these verses are the context from which the very, very, very few verses promoting peace and love are lifted out and decontextualized. From a purely statistical perspective, the absolutely overwhelming majority of the scriptures are devoted to absolutely sickening litanies of pure destruction which God oversees with orgiastic abandon in His divine rage and mockery. The only comfort is the fact that so few people who profess to believe in these scriptures actually take the time to read them. 

Meanwhile, I'm ever so thankful and grateful for the spiritual uplift provided during this Conference when the representatives of the One True Church claim that the little voice that talks in their heads is not an indication of schizotypal tendencies, but rather evidence that God took the time to miraculously find those precious, precious car keys, instead of curing the Ebola He gave to innocent children, so their broken bleeding bodies could function as an object lesson divinely-foreordained to teach others to have compassion. 

[Gray]

3 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

I find it incredibly fascinating that anyone can read the scriptures and manage to come to the conclusion that God is anything but a sadistic psychopath who is the supreme First Cause archetype of 'rage and mockery'. In the past few weeks, I did a reread of the entirety of the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Qur'an. They are absolutely soaked in the bloodshed God commanded. The entire point of most of the writers is that God is the biggest baddest mofo around. Consider: 

Psalms 2:4 says that "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath." Other Psalms have David (or whoever) praising God for how well He breaks the teeth of his enemies, breaks their arms, shoots them with arrows, rains snares, fire, brimstone, horrible tempests, gives David the necks of his enemies, subdues the people and nations under his feet, and allows the 'righteous' to rejoice and wash their feet in the blood of the wicked. In Exodus, God commands Moses to slaughter 3,000 people, nicely comparable to the number of people who died on 9/11. Elsewhere, the best way God can imagine to symbolize a covenant with His people is to mutilate the genitals of little boys and mark their privates as His private property. In Exodus, He is perfectly fine with slavery. He teams up with Satan and allows Job to be tortured. He lets Jezebel get eaten by dogs. He believes in capital punishment for extremely dangerous crimes, such as picking up sticks on the wrong day. The beloved Aaronic Priesthood is given to Phinehas after he runs a javelin through an amorous couple (a nice warm 'n' fuzzy image that Brigham Young picked up to describe how he would treat one of his many, many wives). The Prophetess Deborah and Barak sing a jubilant song rejoicing over how Jael nailed a spike through a man's face. God helps Jephthah kill innumerable people on the legalistic condition that afterwards, he go through with performing a human sacrifice of his own virgin daughter. Speaking of virgins, Ezekiel the Prophetic Pornographer describes God as an abusive polygamist who smacks around His slutty metaphorical wives. He smites ark-steadiers who were just trying to help. He lets King David cut people with saws and harrows of iron, and axes. He messes with Abraham's mind repeatedly. He smites the innocent firstborn Egyptians. He sends plagues like a bioterrorist. He causes famine and starvation. When God isn't giving Divine Revelation on absolutely banal minutia in the D&C, He's threatening people with Hellfire if they don't do what Joseph says. In Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, Isaiah 9, 13, 49, Jeremiah 19, and Ezekiel 5, God commands people to EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS. And all this, of course, is not even considering the endless wars and genocides God commands and takes part in. 

I am not taking these verses out of context; these verses are the context from which the very, very, very few verses promoting peace and love are lifted out and decontextualized. From a purely statistical perspective, the absolutely overwhelming majority of the scriptures are devoted to absolutely sickening litanies of pure destruction which God oversees with orgiastic abandon in His divine rage and mockery. The only comfort is the fact that so few people who profess to believe in these scriptures actually take the time to read them. 

Meanwhile, I'm ever so thankful and grateful for the spiritual uplift provided during this Conference when the representatives of the One True Church claim that the little voice that talks in their heads is not an indication of schizotypal tendencies, but rather evidence that God took the time to miraculously find those precious, precious car keys, instead of curing the Ebola He gave to innocent children, so their broken bleeding bodies could function as an object lesson divinely-foreordained to teach others to have compassion. 

Scripture is a human product. Depictions of God in scripture represent the ideals of the communities that produced the scriptures. Not all ideas about God expressed in scripture are well considered, and some require special interpretation. In most cases God is an anthropomorphic projection of the kinds of values held by those communities. 

God doesn't smite or cause famine or starvation. I think it should be obvious by now that natural law drives these kinds of things. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[pcarthew]

Conference was just awesome.  It has been like a well of living water.  It has been good for my soul.

[Rivers]

The stories of lost car keys show how much God really cares about His children. If those car keys are important to me at a particular time, they are important to God.  

God is mindful of all things no matter how insignificant they seem.

 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

Matt. 10:29-31

Edited April 4, 2016 by Rivers

[stemelbow]

7 hours ago, bluebell said:

I know He's not where Jeremy is. God is not rage and mockery.  If he's looking for God there he won't find Him.  That's not judgement. It's guidance.  God loves Jeremy and he is worthy of hearing truth.

Some paths are wrong.  I know you don't like to hear that because you think it makes you prideful or self righteous or something. But it doesn't.

We can disagree on which paths those are but we can't believe in God and then claim there is no Satan, that there is no wrong path.  God was telling the truth when He taught His prophet that there must be opposition in all things.

 

We are very cultural.  I think Jeremy responded to this with good reasoning.  When I first read your response I wondered what you meant considering not only scripture but the general anger and mockery that leads out posts from others or that seems to emerge it's ugly head in Church from time to time.  I sense a great deal of frustration in Jeremy's posts, frustration which resonates with me.  And it doesn't sit well with me to dismiss someone's perspective as rage and mockery, especially considering his positions seem to come from a place of great concern and care for others.  I personally am far more comfortable loving others and hoping for the best for others than I am enjoying a rameumptum-type thank-fest. 

[Gray]

Jeremy, your points are well taken. It doesn't make sense to claim that God is helping people find lost car keys while allowing orphans to die painfully. This is why a different model for God is needed. 

[Buckeye]

4 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

I find it incredibly fascinating that anyone can read the scriptures and manage to come to the conclusion that God is anything but a sadistic psychopath who is the supreme First Cause archetype of 'rage and mockery'. In the past few weeks, I did a reread of the entirety of the Old and New Testaments, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Qur'an. They are absolutely soaked in the bloodshed God commanded. The entire point of most of the writers is that God is the biggest baddest mofo around. Consider: 

Psalms 2:4 says that "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath." Other Psalms have David (or whoever) praising God for how well He breaks the teeth of his enemies, breaks their arms, shoots them with arrows, rains snares, fire, brimstone, horrible tempests, gives David the necks of his enemies, subdues the people and nations under his feet, and allows the 'righteous' to rejoice and wash their feet in the blood of the wicked. In Exodus, God commands Moses to slaughter 3,000 people, nicely comparable to the number of people who died on 9/11. Elsewhere, the best way God can imagine to symbolize a covenant with His people is to mutilate the genitals of little boys and mark their privates as His private property. In Exodus, He is perfectly fine with slavery. He teams up with Satan and allows Job to be tortured. He lets Jezebel get eaten by dogs. He believes in capital punishment for extremely dangerous crimes, such as picking up sticks on the wrong day. The beloved Aaronic Priesthood is given to Phinehas after he runs a javelin through an amorous couple (a nice warm 'n' fuzzy image that Brigham Young picked up to describe how he would treat one of his many, many wives). The Prophetess Deborah and Barak sing a jubilant song rejoicing over how Jael nailed a spike through a man's face. God helps Jephthah kill innumerable people on the legalistic condition that afterwards, he go through with performing a human sacrifice of his own virgin daughter. Speaking of virgins, Ezekiel the Prophetic Pornographer describes God as an abusive polygamist who smacks around His slutty metaphorical wives. He smites ark-steadiers who were just trying to help. He lets King David cut people with saws and harrows of iron, and axes. He messes with Abraham's mind repeatedly. He smites the innocent firstborn Egyptians. He sends plagues like a bioterrorist. He causes famine and starvation. When God isn't giving Divine Revelation on absolutely banal minutia in the D&C, He's threatening people with Hellfire if they don't do what Joseph says. In Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28, Isaiah 9, 13, 49, Jeremiah 19, and Ezekiel 5, God commands people to EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND DAUGHTERS. And all this, of course, is not even considering the endless wars and genocides God commands and takes part in. 

I am not taking these verses out of context; these verses are the context from which the very, very, very few verses promoting peace and love are lifted out and decontextualized. From a purely statistical perspective, the absolutely overwhelming majority of the scriptures are devoted to absolutely sickening litanies of pure destruction which God oversees with orgiastic abandon in His divine rage and mockery. The only comfort is the fact that so few people who profess to believe in these scriptures actually take the time to read them. 

Meanwhile, I'm ever so thankful and grateful for the spiritual uplift provided during this Conference when the representatives of the One True Church claim that the little voice that talks in their heads is not an indication of schizotypal tendencies, but rather evidence that God took the time to miraculously find those precious, precious car keys, instead of curing the Ebola He gave to innocent children, so their broken bleeding bodies could function as an object lesson divinely-foreordained to teach others to have compassion. 

J-OS, I'm a little late to your discussions, but I certainly feel your pain. The God that is often represented in the OT, BOA, and to a lesser extent the BOM, D/C, and even current church teachings, is not a God that resonates with me. What has helped me the most is to change my paradigm from viewing the scriptures as a literal guide to viewing them as a recording of a people who at a certain time who struggled to become better by listening to a divine voice. Don't look at the verses as an absolute goal. Look at them as points in time in which people (slowly) became better. That is where God is to be found - the force between the verses that moves the people from one stage to another. The arc of the scriptures is where the gospel is to be found, not the particular points along the way.

I believe in God precisely because the God described in the OT (and other scriptures) is so abhorrent. For a people to go from believing in genocide and child sacrifice to believing D/C 121 is quite a miracle. I don't believe we would have changed so much if man was simply acting on his own.

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Buckeye

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

The stories of lost car keys show how much God really cares about His children. If those car keys are important to me at a particular time, they are important to God.  

God is mindful of all things no matter how insignificant they seem.

 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows."

Matt. 10:29-31

I think sometimes people (myself included) think that God has to pick and choose who's prayers to answer, like he has a limit of so many per day or something.  So when they hear that God helped someone find their car keys then that means that He couldn't answer someone else's more important or urgent prayer because He wasted one of his 'answers' on something 'silly'.

But like you said, whether or not God answers my prayer (for something big or small) the way I want Him to has absolutely no bearing on how He answers other people's prayers.  If someone finds their car keys and someone else dies on the same day, that doesn't mean that God cared more about the car keys.  

**It also doesn't mean that the person relaying the finding of the keys believes that God cares more about the car keys.**

 

[bluebell]

We are very cultural.  I think Jeremy responded to this with good reasoning.  When I first read your response I wondered what you meant considering not only scripture but the general anger and mockery that leads out posts from others or that seems to emerge it's ugly head in Church from time to time.  I sense a great deal of frustration in Jeremy's posts, frustration which resonates with me.  And it doesn't sit well with me to dismiss someone's perspective as rage and mockery, especially considering his positions seem to come from a place of great concern and care for others.  I personally am far more comfortable loving others and hoping for the best for others than I am enjoying a rameumptum-type thank-fest. 

If that doesn't sit well with you, then why haven't you condemned Jeremy for dismissing our perspectives, or more importantly, the perspectives of those who spoke at general conference?  He implied some pretty awful things about them and that doesn't seem to bother you.

I also am much more comfortable with loving others and hoping the best for them. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Jeremy, your points are well taken. It doesn't make sense to claim that God is helping people find lost car keys while allowing orphans to die painfully. This is why a different model for God is needed. 

Why doesn't it make sense?  

[Gray]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think sometimes people (myself included) think that God has to pick and choose who's prayers to answer, like he has a limit of so many per day or something.  So when they hear that God helped someone find their car keys then that means that He couldn't answer someone else's more important or urgent prayer because He wasted one of his 'answers' on something 'silly'.

But like you said, whether or not God answers my prayer (for something big or small) the way I want Him to has absolutely no bearing on how He answers other people's prayers.  If someone finds their car keys and someone else dies on the same day, that doesn't mean that God cared more about the car keys.  

**It also doesn't mean that the person relaying the finding of the keys believes that God cares more about the car keys.**

 

I think it's unsupportable to think that God intervenes in this way, given the ways in which we know that God does not intervene. 

[Gray]

21 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Very sad.

I thought he was beyond this.  I do not know what happened.  Cog dis, I suspect.

I hope he works through it. He seems like a great person (sorry Jeremy to talk about you as if you weren't here!)

[Gray]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Why doesn't it make sense?  

Say you have two children. One is bleeding profusely from an open wound, and one is sad because she lost her teddy bear. Would you help find the lost bear but neglect the child with the open wound? And if you did, what would that say about you as a parent?

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Deborah]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

Say you have two children. One is bleeding profusely from an open wound, and one is sad because she lost her teddy bear. Would you help find the lost bear but neglect the child with the open wound? And if you did, what would that say about you as a parent?

Sigh. What a ridiculous comparison. You don't know what the purpose for one's crisis is or what spiritual help they may be receiving. You are looking on the surface only.

[cdowis]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

Say you have two children. One is bleeding profusely from an open wound, and one is sad because she lost her teddy bear. Would you help find the lost bear but neglect the child with the open wound? And if you did, what would that say about you as a parent?

The key assumption here is the word "neglect".  Neither child is neglected, only that the answer is "yes" for the one, and "no, not yet" for the other.
The other assumption is that "you", the parent, is omniscient, and can see past, present, and the future. Since that is not the case, "you" help both of them, not realizing the eternal consequences of your decision.

"If I were god, this is what I would do.  God does not do this, ergo there is no god."  The foundation of the atheist argument that there is no god.

Edited April 4, 2016 by cdowis

[Deborah]

I sincerely don't understand why some will spend so much time listening to something they will end up nitpicking and finding fault with every nuance of statements made. That's a lot of time wasted on something you get nothing but negativity out of .

 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think it's unsupportable to think that God intervenes in this way, given the ways in which we know that God does not intervene. 

I have personal evidence (a lot of it) that supports it.  We are going thru a difficult trial right now in our family and i am so thankful that, when His will does not allow Him to answer some of my prayers according to my will, that He still answers others.  Tender mercies are real.

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, Deborah said:

Sigh. What a ridiculous comparison. You don't know what the purpose for one's crisis is or what spiritual help they may be receiving. You are looking on the surface only.

It's not ridiculous. It's a question that needs to be answered if one wished to claim that God intervenes in human affairs like this. 

[Deborah]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

It's not ridiculous. It's a question that needs to be answered if one wished to claim that God intervenes in human affairs like this. 

In the situation you describe you take care of the emergency first and then the other. But that has nothing to do with the bigger picture of people who may be suffering and don't have immediate rescuing. It's not that God can't but that he won't always intervene because it is a matter of faith, whether it's faith to be healed or faith to endure and learn of compassion or to allow others to give service and comfort. You really do have a limited view of the eternity if you think everything has to be resolved right now. 

[Gray]

17 minutes ago, cdowis said:

The key assumption here is the word "neglect".  Neither child is neglected, only that the answer is "yes" for the one, and "no, not yet" for the other.
The other assumption is that "you", the parent, is omniscient, and can see past, present, and the future. Since that is not the case, "you" help both of them, not realizing the eternal consequences of your decision.

"If I were god, this is what I would do.  God does not do this, ergo there is no god."  The foundation of the atheist argument that there is no god.

The problem is of course is that much of the suffering that goes on in the world is pointless. Babies don't learn anything by suffering - they just suffer. The idea of a beneficent God and an intervening God are not compatible, given the state of the world. Therefore a new model for God is needed. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have personal evidence (a lot of it) that supports it.  We are going thru a difficult trial right now in our family and i am so thankful that, when His will does not allow Him to answer some of my prayers according to my will, that He still answers others.  Tender mercies are real.

And for all the innocents that continue to suffer without relief?

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Gray said:

Say you have two children. One is bleeding profusely from an open wound, and one is sad because she lost her teddy bear. Would you help find the lost bear but neglect the child with the open wound? And if you did, what would that say about you as a parent?

This idea that when someone's prayer isn't answered in the way they want that it is a sign of God's neglect is so misguided. 

We believe that the purpose of this earth life is to have trials, to suffer sometimes, to go thru hard times, and to die.  And then we imply that if God does let someone suffer, if He does let them go thru a trial rather than remove it, if He does let them die, that He's being neglectful??  I'd say that that makes no sense but that's putting it too mildly.

Sometimes it's best for us to suffer thru the profuse bleeding-that is what our doctrine states!  It is the very basic backbone doctrine of the entire plan of salvation.

Sometimes bleeding profusely isn't what's best for us.  Sometimes it's best for us to find our teddy bear.  Sometimes it's not.  God always does what is best, regardless of whether it is a big thing or a small thing.  He doesn't decide what is best based on what it easiest, or based on what is best for someone else.  And thank goodness for that because He would utterly fail us as a parent if He did.

**and the person who finds their keys today is the same person burying their child, or going thru cancer, or dealing with a loved one in prison, or bleeding profusely, etc. etc. tomorrow.  Everyone goes thru their personal gethsemane.  Everyone.  God answering a simple prayer one day does not mean He doesn't say No to other requests.** 

Edited April 4, 2016 by bluebell
typos