how is conference?

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, definitely. Of course the difference between that and the subject at hand is there is no reason to think we are intellectually incapable of understanding the answer right now, just as we are. 

We are tslking about a plan that not only encompasses infinite time and space, but infinite beings.  I am thinking there is a very good reason why our understanding is currently limited.

[Gray]

26 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I believe the reason why I have seen and experienced mighty miracles in my life is because -- in accord with Mormon's admonition -- I know one of the necessary prerequisites for the working of mighty miracles is to have living faith in Christ as a God of miracles. I wonder if one of the reasons why some members don't believe in a God of miracles is because they don't want to believe it.

I'm more inclined to say that the things we take for granted, like blooming flowers in the spring, are the real miracles. The dramatic stories about faith healings I think are no more than stories. 

[Deborah]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

This is avoiding the issue, isn't it? Someday, beyond the grave, we'll understand. 

 

Depends on whether you think it is an issue. Through my life I have received answers in later years to questions I had when I was younger. So yes we will receive the answers someday, in this life or the next.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

You have a different defintion of avoiding the issue than I have.  Avoidance to me is an active behaviour, not something that just happens to you because of limitations (as in someone who has done what is possible on their end to find a companion, but has no one stepping up to take the role is not avoiding marriage).  Not understanding something in complete detail does not mean to me someone is avoiding understanding.

Well, if not actively avoiding, you're at least not actively engaging, right? 

You make a fair point, though. 

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Gray said:

The problem lies in where God might choose to intervene, and choose not to intervene. There are babies born without skin. If God could intervene on that area, he surely would, or else he would not be a good God.

Him not intervening in a way that is visible and understandable to you does not mean he doesn't intervene and intervenes in the best possible way.

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

We are tslking about a plan that not only encompasses infinite time and space, but infinite beings.  I am thinking there is a very good reason why our understanding is currently limited.

I don't think so. The reason that we see this as a block or an "unanswerable" question is that it seems that most theists don't like where the answers lead. 

This is really no different from any other issue that has a somewhat obvious but undesirable answer. We can either face it head on or find reasons to avoid it.

But, in my experience, the answer isn't really so unpleasant. In fact it's enlightening, and has helped deepen my own spirituality. 

That is not to say that everyone should come to the same conclusions I have. Some people are better off with a more traditional, orthodox theology. Maybe for those it's better not to engage this topic. However, some awareness of the issue of the problem of evil can help us to at least be more sensitive about why some claims of divine intervention can cause harm. Imagine a mother who has lost her child, reading on facebook about God's assistance in helping someone find their smartphone. 

All theologies are models that can either help or impede our spiritual growth. I don't believe there is one model that works best for everyone. 

[Calm]

So explain to me if you believe God does not intervene why the best course of action when we ourselves cannot relieve suffering is not to put a bullet in the sufferer's brain or some other quick way of guaranteed death?  Because at the moment I am not sering any solution from you that is better than faith in that the idea of "tender mercies" gives comfort to many just as you are suggesting some claims cause harm.

[Storm Rider]

This has been a problem for the people of God from the beginning.  God does not do God quite as well as man thinks he should or must if he is going to be worthy of worshiped by man.  God just isn't quite good enough and does not fit the demand that we have of him.  God, to be God, should someone we go to when we have a problem and he immediately fixes it like a genie in the bottle.  Heck, if he does not do what I want him to do when I want him to do it then what good is he?

Too often man loses sight of the purpose of this life.  Trials and tribulations only become painful events and nothing else.  Life should be a bed of soft rose petals and rainbows without ever a need to experience pain, or opposition, or trials, or tribulations.  God should not have an eternal plan to make us into something better than we are.  He should leave us in this fallen, perverse state and allow us to merrily go down the stream of life with bubbles and pretty songs pleasantly playing in the background.

How do individuals lose so completely an understanding of the purpose of life?  Who leads them into this forgetfulness?  It obviously is not a happy place and yet individuals with fight with all the pathetic powers of man to remain in such a sorry state.  We as humans are really not very smart.  Yet, we still think we know how to do God better than God.  Go figure.  

[Calm]

Your miracle of blooming flowers.  I agree it is a miracle.  I see driving by a beautiful garden as a tender mercy.  So what of those who have no flowers, is your saying they are a miracle causing them harm?

[Calm]

Serious question on what is best, trying to understand.

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

So explain to me if you believe God does not intervene why the best course of action when we ourselves cannot relieve suffering is not to put a bullet in the sufferer's brain or some other quick way of guaranteed death?  Because at the moment I am not sering any solution from you that is better than faith in that the idea of "tender mercies" gives comfort to many just as you are suggesting some claims cause harm.

What we're already doing is what we can do - seek medical and other practical solutions to alleviate suffering. That's the work of God - humans helping humans. Jesus gave the perfect answer. If you've done it unto the least of these, you've done it unto me. The two great commandments - love God and love your neighbor. No need to resort to barbarism. 

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Your miracle of blooming flowers.  I agree it is a miracle.  I see driving by a beautiful garden as a tender mercy.  So what of those who have no flowers, is your saying they are a miracle causing them harm?

The great thing about those kinds of miracles is that everyone has access to them. They're practical miracles rather than theoretical miracles. 

[cdowis]

8 hours ago, Gray said:

The problem is of course is that much of the suffering that goes on in the world is pointless.

Really?  You do realize that we chose to come to mortality, with a knowledge and understanding  of the suffering that we would suffer.  Many shouted with joy -- Hallelujah to God and Christ our Redeemer.  "BRING IT ON!"  Each of us had that choice to follow Father's Plan, or to reject it.

Babies don't learn anything by suffering - they just suffer.

I find it interesting that you pretend to be omniscient.  Thank you for sharing your certainty with us.  Perhaps you are simply spiritually immature, so I think you will grow out of it.

In my ignorance, I suppose that their suffering may be "pointless" to the child himself, perhaps not.  Unlike yourself, I just don't know.  
But i think it does serve a purpose for those who are their protectors and guardians, and anyone who is aware of their plight.  An opportunity for service, prayer, faith and consolation.
 

It's sad that we cannot see things as God sees them, so we accuse and shake our fist at Him.  He has promised us that the day will come when we will declare that He is just and compassionate.  But, for some, it will be too late for their souls.

The idea of a beneficent God and an intervening God are not compatible, given the state of the world. Therefore a new model for God is needed. 

That is why He restored the Gospel and called a living prophet to change the old model that ignorantly accuses Him of injustice.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by cdowis

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

The great thing about those kinds of miracles is that everyone has access to them. They're practical miracles rather than theoretical miracles. 

But they don't.  Not everyone has flowers or things of beauty in their life.  Perhaps they may come later, but how telling someone that be different than saying blessings from God of healing, etc. may come into your life?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

What we're already doing is what we can do - seek medical and other practical solutions to alleviate suffering. That's the work of God - humans helping humans. Jesus gave the perfect answer. If you've done it unto the least of these, you've done it unto me. The two great commandments - love God and love your neighbor. No need to resort to barbarism. 

So what we are teaching already then as far as I can tell.  I am not seeing the greater benefit to this line of thinking still.  We aim to do the same for our fellowmen (if we listen to the teachings), but we lack the hope that God will take it even further than is possible through his human agents when suffering cannot be alleviated now or anytime in the foreseeable future.

[stemelbow]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

If that doesn't sit well with you, then why haven't you condemned Jeremy for dismissing our perspectives, or more importantly, the perspectives of those who spoke at general conference?  He implied some pretty awful things about them and that doesn't seem to bother you.

I also am much more comfortable with loving others and hoping the best for them. 

It feels to me you misunderstand him.  I don't see dismissing out of hand.  I didn't say I agree with everything he said.  I tend to agree about some of the talks at Conference.  I see more rage and anger getting directed at posters like Jeremy than the other way around.  But I suppose we see what we want to see.  I grant that plays into all of this a bit.  I could say if you really loved others and hoped the best for them, you too would not be so hostile towards Jeremy's perspective.  But I don't really think that.  I think you are genuine in your claim.  You certainly view things differently than Jeremy and myself.  But that's doesn't put you nor us in a place that God is not nor can be. 

[stemelbow]

19 hours ago, Sleeper Cell said:

I prefer a rameumptum-type thank-fest to a rameumptum-type hate-fest.  I sensed far more “loving others and hoping for the best for others” coming from general conference, than from Jeremy‘s recent posts.  

Perhaps Bluebell would have been less inclined to dismiss someone’s perspective as rage and mockery, if that “someone” would have expressed less rage and mockery in his posts.  Just a thought.   

I sensed the opposite.  But we see what we want to see, I guess.  It's great we can share perspectives.  But sadly dismissing other's as something they are not is not helpful.  I think that happens all too often here, and is a pretty good characterization of what Bluebell did.  

[Gray]

13 hours ago, cdowis said:

 

Nothing you've said here (which isn't showing up when I try to quote you for some reason) addresses the problem of evil. 

[Gray]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

But they don't.  Not everyone has flowers or things of beauty in their life.  Perhaps they may come later, but how telling someone that be different than saying blessings from God of healing, etc. may come into your life?

Everyone who is alive has a miracle inside of them. Beauty is all around if you have eyes to see. 

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Nothing you've said here (which isn't showing up when I try to quote you for some reason) addresses the problem of evil. 

Read it again.

Then read it in five years, and perhaps it will start making sense.  It's not something that you can just gulp down and declare, "It don't make sense."

I don't write books in multiple bound volumes.  This is my playground, and, unfortunately, what I write disappears from memory like yesterday's newspaper.  But if you treat it with respect, perhaps, just perhaps, you will discover something worth while.

Not always good at words and explaining, but I have been given a gift of seeing things that very few are able to see.  I suggest that you do not so easily dismiss some of the things I write.  Just a suggestion.

Edited April 5, 2016 by cdowis

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Read it again.

Then read it in five years, and perhaps it will start making sense.  It's not something that you can just gulp down and declare, "It doesn't make sense."

I've grown out of my former fundamentalism. Admittedly my path is not for everyone - certainly not desirable for every circumstance, but it works for me. 

But if you think you've solved the problem of evil, that's probably a good indicator that you haven't really thought it through carefully. 

[longview]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

Nothing you've said here (which isn't showing up when I try to quote you for some reason) addresses the problem of evil. 

A very strange statement for you to make!  Surely you know about the Genesis account of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" along with the Book of Abraham description of the pre-existence and the "Great Council"?  Are you familiar with the discourses of Lehi/Nephi concerning the NEED for experiencing "opposition" in mortality?  That Earth is a marvelous "laboratory" in which we can learn important things that are not possible to acquire in the pre-existence?  That we have the opportunity become something greater than what we could not even imagine in the pre-existence except to see the example of God in person?  The only way we can become like God is to go thru the trials and tribulations of mortality.  This includes grappling with the "problem of evil."

48 minutes ago, Gray said:

I've grown out of my former fundamentalism. Admittedly my path is not for everyone - certainly not desirable for every circumstance, but it works for me. 

Another strange statement!  Do you think you are smarter and wiser than the God of the Bible?

50 minutes ago, Gray said:

But if you think you've solved the problem of evil, that's probably a good indicator that you haven't really thought it through carefully. 

So you think you have the last word on the science of theology?

[Gray]

24 minutes ago, longview said:

A very strange statement for you to make!  Surely you know about the Genesis account of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" along with the Book of Abraham description of the pre-existence and the "Great Council"?  Are you familiar with the discourses of Lehi/Nephi concerning the NEED for experiencing "opposition" in mortality?  That Earth is a marvelous "laboratory" in which we can learn important things that are not possible to acquire in the pre-existence?  That we have the opportunity become something greater than what we could not even imagine in the pre-existence except to see the example of God in person?  The only way we can become like God is to go thru the trials and tribulations of mortality.  This includes grappling with the "problem of evil."

Another strange statement!  Do you think you are smarter and wiser than the God of the Bible?

So you think you have the last word on the science of theology?

The idea of opposition in all things doesn't address the extent to which suffering exists, including needless suffering. An infant who suffers horribly from some disease has not grown by the experience - she does not posses the cognitive faculties to do anything but experience the pain. Some trauma is so deep that it leaves people irreparably scarred. 

There are many notions about God in the Bible. Not all of them are consistent with each other. What all of them have in common is they are subjective perceptions about God that were held by the various communities who wrote scripture. The Bible doesn't give us access to any of those Gods, only access to what some communities thought about God. 

Obviously I don't have the last word on any theological matter.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Gray

[longview]

12 hours ago, Gray said:

The idea of opposition in all things doesn't address the extent to which suffering exists, including needless suffering.

Sure there are sufferings.  But you don't get to second guess what is needless or needful.  The Atonement takes care of all aspects of mortal experiences.

12 hours ago, Gray said:

An infant who suffers horribly from some disease has not grown by the experience - she does not posses the cognitive faculties to do anything but experience the pain.

Have you heard stories of some people who underwent traumatic experiences but were spared the full agony when their spirits separated from their physical bodies?  I read of a couple where a child is being raped but was able to watch from the corner of the room.  Or the "interfaces" between body and spirit can be muted to some degree.  In any case, I am sure there will be complete psychic healing and peace in the next stage.

12 hours ago, Gray said:

There are many notions about God in the Bible. Not all of them are consistent with each other. What all of them have in common is they are subjective perceptions about God that were held by the various communities who wrote scripture. The Bible doesn't give us access to any of those Gods, only access to what some communities thought about God. 

Your moniker as "progressive mormon" may indicate your preference for the "humanist point of view."  The Book of Mormon is the world's greatest commentary on the Bible.  Therefore my preference is the LDS point of view correlated with all the standard works and "harmonized" with my own spiritual witness and feedback (both in study and life experiences).

[Damien the Leper]

Hi Jeremy! I don't know where your current sentiments, some even I can identify with, are coming from. I'm not going to criticize you for your criticisms. I only wish to continue to offer an olive branch of peace and to extend love to you.

I've been attending Community of Christ frequently and there is a place for even those of us who doubt. The church's Mission Initiatives seek to provide spiritual relief as much as humanitarian relief. Mission Tithes primarily serve the world community at large and members of the church act as missionaries, not in the sense of seeking converts, but to share the peace of Jesus Christ and the peace of a fellow sojourner in an uncertain, unpredictable and scary world. 

D&C 163:2a-4a says:

2 a. Jesus Christ, the embodiment of God’s shalom, invites all people to come and receive divine peace in the midst of the difficult questions and struggles of life. Follow Christ in the way that leads to God’s peace and discover the blessings of all of the dimensions of salvation.

b. Generously share the invitation, ministries, and sacraments through which people can encounter the Living Christ who heals and reconciles through redemptive relationships in sacred community. The restoring of persons to healthy or righteous relationships with God, others, themselves, and the earth is at the heart of the purpose of your journey as a people of faith.

3 a. You are called to create pathways in the world for peace in Christ to be relationally and culturally incarnate. The hope of Zion is realized when the vision of Christ is embodied in communities of generosity, justice, and peacefulness.

b. Above all else, strive to be faithful to Christ’s vision of the peaceable Kingdom of God on earth. Courageously challenge cultural, political, and religious trends that are contrary to the reconciling and restoring purposes of God. Pursue peace.

c. There are subtle, yet powerful, influences in the world, some even claiming to represent Christ, that seek to divide people and nations to accomplish their destructive aims. That which seeks to harden one human heart against another by constructing walls of fear and prejudice is not of God. Be especially alert to these influences, lest they divide you or divert you from the mission to which you are called.

4 a. God, the Eternal Creator, weeps for the poor, displaced, mistreated, and diseased of the world because of their unnecessary suffering. Such conditions are not God’s will. Open your ears to hear the pleading of mothers and fathers in all nations who desperately seek a future of hope for their children. Do not turn away from them. For in their welfare resides your welfare.

Scripture, as President Veazey has said, is shaped by human experience and spoke again of scripture in D&C 163:7a-d:

7 a. Scripture is an indispensable witness to the Eternal Source of light and truth, which cannot be fully contained in any finite vessel or language. Scripture has been written and shaped by human authors through experiences of revelation and ongoing inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the midst of time and culture.

b. Scripture is not to be worshiped or idolized. Only God, the Eternal One of whom scripture testifies, is worthy of worship. God’s nature, as revealed in Jesus Christ and affirmed by the Holy Spirit, provides the ultimate standard by which any portion of scripture should be interpreted and applied.

c. It is not pleasing to God when any passage of scripture is used to diminish or oppress races, genders, or classes of human beings. Much physical and emotional violence has been done to some of God’s beloved children through the misuse of scripture. The church is called to confess and repent of such attitudes and practices.

d. Scripture, prophetic guidance, knowledge, and discernment in the faith community must walk hand in hand to reveal the true will of God. Follow this pathway, which is the way of the Living Christ, and you will discover more than sufficient light for the journey ahead.

I hope this part of Section 163 is in any way helpful.

The priesthood functions differently and in D&C 163:6a-b President Veazey explains the appropriate use of priesthood both a spiritual and secular ministry:

6 a. Priesthood is a sacred covenant involving the highest form of stewardship of body, mind, spirit, and relationships. The priesthood shall be composed of people of humility and integrity who are willing to extend themselves in service for others and for the well-being of the faith community.

b. Truly authoritative priesthood ministry emerges from a growing capacity to bring blessing to others. Unfortunately, there are some who have chosen to view priesthood as a right of privilege or as a platform for promoting personal perspectives. Others hold priesthood as a casual aspect of their lives without regard to appropriate levels of preparation and response.

I know I've cited Section 163 a great deal but it is full of necessary and much needed counsel.

In closing, I'll share D&C 165:6a-c:

6a. Beloved Community of Christ, do not just speak and sing of Zion. Live, love and share as Zion: those who strive to be visibly one in Christ, among whom there are no poor or oppressed.

6b. As Christ's body, lovingly and patiently bear the weight of criticism from those who hesitate to respond to the divine vision of human worth and equality in Christ. This blessing and burden is yours for divine purposes.

6c. And, always remember, the way of suffering love that leads to the Cross also leads to resurrection and everlasting life in Christ's eternal community of oneness and peace. Trust this promise.

With peace and love,

Valentinus

Edited April 6, 2016 by Valentinus
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