how is conference?

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Gray said:

Presumably there is such a thing as death? And presumably the real growth happens in life - now is the time to prepare to meet God, etc. 

Death of the physical body, not cessation of existence or awareness of the spiritual/intelligence being in LDS belief.

Spirit prison is taught to be a learning time as well as mortality, and suffering occurs as well, in part to help those who have sinned come to a realization there is a better way and hopefully accept the Atonement.  JS taught that there was much more to learn about the Endowment after mortality so even those in paradise will be learning.

You have a number of assumptions about existence that are not consistent with core LDS belief, imo.  Which is fine, but it makes no sense to insist that your assumptions somehow determine how we who hold different assumptions understand our teaching of the Plan of Salvation, that is like an American telling Canadians they are celebrating their Thanksgiving Day for the wrong reasons.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Calm

[Bobbieaware]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

You're using faith to bridge the gap where it doesn't make sense for a good God to fail to intervene. While faith may be a reasonable approach for a religious person to take in life, that same approach is what is stopping you from being able to solve the problem of evil. "Just because we should have faith" does not answer the question.

Is it not true that one of the fundamental tenets of Mormonism is God is a being of perfect love, justice and mercy, and because of all his divine attributed he makes sure no unfair, unjust, arbitrary or accidental occurance will ever be able to deprive any of his earthly children the fullness of the eternal blessings he offers them through the INFINITE and ETERNAL sacrifice of Christ? In Mormonism, because of God's perfect love, justice, mercy and almighty power, he has the ability to make all things turn out right in the end, and this in spite of all the many kinds of problematic occurances that can take place in mortality. From an eternal perspective, the  only way evil could be a problem is if it had the power to override God's justice, mercy, love and power and come off an undefeatable victor through injustice and unrighteousness. And if evil had this kind of power, God would cease to be God. But if an individual does not believe in these fundamental principles of Mormonism, then it's understandable he might think that evil can overpower God. But the mere fact that mercy and justice will be fully established by the time of the final judgement renders all the worries of the sort you're dealing with null and void. The point is that if God is and does all the things described above, though we may not know all things at the present time, we can know with a sure knowledge that all things, no matter how seemingly great or inconsequential, will perfectly harmonize with justice, mercy and truth in the end. But if there is anyone who doesn't believe God will set all things right in the end, he or she has my permission to climb aboard that rhetorical hampster wheel and run just as fast, hard and long as he likes.

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Bobbieaware
Syntax

[longview]

15 hours ago, Gray said:

This just adds to the problem of evil - cases where God in theory could intervene but does not.

I believe God intercedes plenty of times.  99% of the time we do not see how it happens or even be aware.  Yes, God does allow suffering.  But probably not to the degree that you imagine.  I also believe God does NOT want to make it too obvious, for too many people.  It is very critical that we operate on FAITH in order for us to get the MOST benefit from the experience of mortality.

The Creation had to be done in accordance with the Eternal Law of Justice.  The Garden of Eden was set up with its "Tree of Life" and "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" to enable Adam and Eve to make their choices between mutually exclusive commands:  1- Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the Earth;  2- Partake of any tree of the Garden EXCEPT the forbidden fruit.  The Creation, the Garden, the Fall was permitted by the Eternal Law of Justice because Jehovah accepted the role of the Lamb to bring about the infinite Atonement.  Fall has been referred to as being "fortunate" thus enabling qualified spirit children to born into mortality.  Jesus IS the one that suffered the GREATEST evil.  No other mortal has experienced even an infinitesimal fraction of the agony.  If Jesus partook of the Bitter Cup even though He shrank from it for a moment, then YOU should have FAITH in God's PURPOSE!

10 hours ago, Gray said:

No, not really. We're talking about pure damage to human well being, and then death. There are no life lessons when you have no life.

God's assessment of the victim's life and mortal experience is NOT the same as yours.  If the victim missed out on certain life experiences, it will be made up in the next world.   Everything is COVERED and provided for.  Do not fret.  But be believing.  And trusting in your Maker.

Edited April 8, 2016 by longview

[Gray]

9 hours ago, longview said:

I believe God intercedes plenty of times.  99% of the time we do not see how it happens or even be aware.  Yes, God does allow suffering.  But probably not to the degree that you imagine.  I also believe God does NOT want to make it too obvious, for too many people.  It is very critical that we operate on FAITH in order for us to get the MOST benefit from the experience of mortality.

The Creation had to be done in accordance with the Eternal Law of Justice.  The Garden of Eden was set up with its "Tree of Life" and "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" to enable Adam and Eve to make their choices between mutually exclusive commands:  1- Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the Earth;  2- Partake of any tree of the Garden EXCEPT the forbidden fruit.  The Creation, the Garden, the Fall was permitted by the Eternal Law of Justice because Jehovah accepted the role of the Lamb to bring about the infinite Atonement.  Fall has been referred to as being "fortunate" thus enabling qualified spirit children to born into mortality.  Jesus IS the one that suffered the GREATEST evil.  No other mortal has experienced even an infinitesimal fraction of the agony.  If Jesus partook of the Bitter Cup even though He shrank from it for a moment, then YOU should have FAITH in God's PURPOSE!

God's assessment of the victim's life and mortal experience is NOT the same as yours.  If the victim missed out on certain life experiences, it will be made up in the next world.   Everything is COVERED and provided for.  Do not fret.  But be believing.  And trusting in your Maker.

Human suffering exists to a degree that neither of us can really understand.

Let's talk about intervention and agency. So far there has not been, as far as I know, a nation that has taken all of its children and skinned them alive. Is that because God intervened to stop it? If He did, we would have no way of knowing for sure. That's not something anyone really thinks about. How much evil that exists in the real world could God stop without thwarting agency? Our agency is often limited by circumstance and natural law anyway. Sometimes our choices are in a very, very narrow range of options. 

[longview]

42 minutes ago, Gray said:

How much evil that exists in the real world could God stop without thwarting agency?

There was TOO much violence in the days of Noah that God did exterminate the entire world.  Only Noah's family was righteous enough to start again the plan of redemption.  Every so often God will still have to intervene to stop the violence.   Such as wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah.  I suppose Lucifer has had a few opportunities to wipe out populations but I would not know by what criteria he is permitted to do so.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, longview said:

There was TOO much violence in the days of Noah that God did exterminate the entire world.  Only Noah's family was righteous enough to start again the plan of redemption.  Every so often God will still have to intervene to stop the violence.   Such as wiping out Sodom and Gomorrah.  I suppose Lucifer has had a few opportunities to wipe out populations but I would not know by what criteria he is permitted to do so.

Setting aside the issue of the historicity of that event, that was such a dramatic intervention that today we would be tempted to call it a thwarting of free agency. You can't choose to sin when you've been killed by God. It is these examples of dramatic divine intervention that fuel the problem of evil. 

[longview]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

Setting aside the issue of the historicity of that event, that was such a dramatic intervention that today we would be tempted to call it a thwarting of free agency. You can't choose to sin when you've been killed by God. It is these examples of dramatic divine intervention that fuel the problem of evil. 

God has the right to make ANY kind of intervention.  Just so long as He stayed within the "Eternal Law of Justice."  Besides that, all spirit children (who were not cast out with Lucifer) made covenants of certain kinds in order to obtain the privilege of experiencing the "Second Estate."  Are you trying to say that God should not have stopped the extreme violence that was occurring in the days of Noah?

You keep skirting the question of God's purpose.  If you believe in God, you should be focused on what His purpose is.  NOT on the existence of evil.  If you do not believe, then you are simply mocking God.

[cdowis]

17 hours ago, Gray said:

Setting aside the issue of the historicity of that event, that was such a dramatic intervention that today we would be tempted to call it a thwarting of free agency. You can't choose to sin when you've been killed by God. It is these examples of dramatic divine intervention that fuel the problem of evil. 

Sigh.

"If I were God, this is what i would do."  The problem remains because you stubbornly cling to that presumption.

Edited April 9, 2016 by cdowis

[rodheadlee]

On 4/7/2016 at 9:27 AM, Gray said:

The examples of God intervening to thwart evil in scripture (including the Book of Mormon) are numerous. The problem of evil remains unsolved. Remember, it's not simply about why does evil exist at all. 

I think those that suffer the most in this life will have the most compassion in the next life, making them better Gods, more Christ like. You can't learn compassion second hand. You can be compassionate but you can't really know what it's like to be hungry without being hungry yourself, you can't know what a broken back feels like unless you have broken your back etc. The most important lesson I have learned is to not let your compassion turn to anger.

Natural disasters are judgement accelerators. Those that are evil will loot and charge outrageous prices for their supplies. Those that have compassion and are valiant in Christ will risk their life to save their neighbor's life and share what they have until the supplies run out. If the Lord is with us we will fear nothing, including death because we believe he will resurrect us. This is why I like Psalms 46: 

1 God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

  2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;

  3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.

Nowhere does he say the earth will not be moved, nor the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea. These things will happen. I guess I don't understand the problem of evil. There will always be a right choice and a wrong choice of actions or words. Just as long as there is free will, there will be evil and good, right and wrong.

Edited April 9, 2016 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

On 4/8/2016 at 11:05 AM, Gray said:

Setting aside the issue of the historicity of that event, that was such a dramatic intervention that today we would be tempted to call it a thwarting of free agency. You can't choose to sin when you've been killed by God. It is these examples of dramatic divine intervention that fuel the problem of evil. 

That's right, their time was up, judgement day. God could see they would not repent, only do more evil. They sleep until the resurrection.

[Gray]

On 4/9/2016 at 11:51 PM, longview said:

God has the right to make ANY kind of intervention.  Just so long as He stayed within the "Eternal Law of Justice."  Besides that, all spirit children (who were not cast out with Lucifer) made covenants of certain kinds in order to obtain the privilege of experiencing the "Second Estate."  Are you trying to say that God should not have stopped the extreme violence that was occurring in the days of Noah?

You keep skirting the question of God's purpose.  If you believe in God, you should be focused on what His purpose is.  NOT on the existence of evil.  If you do not believe, then you are simply mocking God.

This again is just fueling the problem. If God is free to intervene as He chooses, then we must ask why God does not intervene to stop some of the most egregiously evil acts. 

[Gray]

On 4/6/2016 at 2:06 PM, cdowis said:

No one has asked me.  

I understand the difference between a "solution", which we do have as the Plan of Salvation,  and a knowledge of the details, which, in this life, are unavailable to us.  And this is consistent with Mormon theology.

You ae demanding that God tells all the details in this life.  The revelation of the Plan of Salvation is not good enough for you?
Why not the creation.  The translation of the Book of Mormon -- those Isaiah passages.  The Great Flood.  Do atoms have intelligence.

Lots of details and so little time.

The plan of salvation as presently described still leaves us with an unsolved problem of evil. 

[Gray]

On 4/9/2016 at 6:23 AM, cdowis said:

Sigh.

"If I were God, this is what i would do."  The problem remains because you stubbornly cling to that presumption.

If we can't understand God at all, there's no real reason to follow God in the first place. Remove too many presumptions and the whole thing falls apart anyway. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by Gray

[longview]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

This again is just fueling the problem. If God is free to intervene as He chooses, then we must ask why God does not intervene to stop some of the most egregiously evil acts. 

We keep going around the circle.  Sure God is free to act but only within the constraints of the "Eternal Law of Justice."  He is further constrained within the purpose of mortality.  He wants Earth life to appear to be at least "90% real."  He wants His children to act with faith.  This is why He placed the veil of forgetfulness over our minds as we are born into this "vale of tears."  It is NOT going to be safe/secure/warm/fuzzy environment that we had in the pre-existence.  But mortality is only "temporal."

Why do you keep skirting the question of God's Purpose?  Are you being childish and throwing a tantrum because "evil" is so nasty?  So unbelievably cruel?   How about a dose of reality?  How about learning about the REAL consequences of choices?  Adam and Eve learned this truth:

Moses 6:55
55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
Moses 5:11
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, longview said:

We keep going around the circle.  Sure God is free to act but only within the constraints of the "Eternal Law of Justice."  He is further constrained within the purpose of mortality.  He wants Earth life to appear to be at least "90% real."  He wants His children to act with faith.  This is why He placed the veil of forgetfulness over our minds as we are born into this "vale of tears."  It is NOT going to be safe/secure/warm/fuzzy environment that we had in the pre-existence.  But mortality is only "temporal."

Why do you keep skirting the question of God's Purpose?  Are you being childish and throwing a tantrum because "evil" is so nasty?  So unbelievably cruel?   How about a dose of reality?  How about learning about the REAL consequences of choices?  Adam and Eve learned this truth:

Moses 6:55
55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
Moses 5:11
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

Again, this doesn't really address many categories of evil which do not impart life lessons and do not lead to growth. If you're talking about typical first world problems, sure, it would be undesirable for a God to remove that kind of opposition. But evil and suffering go far, far beyond that. 

[longview]

10 hours ago, Gray said:

Again, this doesn't really address many categories of evil which do not impart life lessons and do not lead to growth. If you're talking about typical first world problems, sure, it would be undesirable for a God to remove that kind of opposition. But evil and suffering go far, far beyond that. 

So you want a world that is like the "Matrix" movie?  If a child was to impulsively run to a fence and leap on top of it but misjudges and falls over the cliff a 200 feet high, you would "require" that the child will "float" down and then "bounce" off the rocky shore as if it was made of rubber?  But in normal situations, you would "feel" your weight as being the usual 32 ft/sec^2 gravity?  How will your science "account" for that?  You will have a world that allows for moderate opposition and a "cut off" point for pain and suffering?  Won't you feel like a schizophrenic in that kind of world?

[Gray]

9 hours ago, longview said:

So you want a world that is like the "Matrix" movie?  If a child was to impulsively run to a fence and leap on top of it but misjudges and falls over the cliff a 200 feet high, you would "require" that the child will "float" down and then "bounce" off the rocky shore as if it was made of rubber?  But in normal situations, you would "feel" your weight as being the usual 32 ft/sec^2 gravity?  How will your science "account" for that?  You will have a world that allows for moderate opposition and a "cut off" point for pain and suffering?  Won't you feel like a schizophrenic in that kind of world?

Fish don't seem to notice the fact that they can't fall to their death by swimming over an undersea canyon. They aren't aware of any glitch in the matrix. 

Yes, natural laws apply. And there is no intervention to interfere with natural laws. That's kind of the point, right? But if one believes that God steps in and interferes in some instances (for instance, guiding people to lost objects), that leaves us unable to account for the weightier matters which receive no such intervention. 

I don't think we would notice at all of there were a divine cut off point for pain and suffering. We would just assume that what we experienced was the full range of possible pain and suffering. 

[longview]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I don't think we would notice at all of there were a divine cut off point for pain and suffering. We would just assume that what we experienced was the full range of possible pain and suffering. 

This is what I was saying earlier in this thread.  Horrible things can happen to the physical body (clay tabernacle) but the spirit being (the "real you") is somewhat insulated from the full impact.  The victim may only see having "gone into shock" or being knocked out or some degree of agony.  But does not really know that the pain has been moderated.   As I stated earlier, in extreme incidents, the spirit being is separated from his physical body and is able to watch "from the corner."  We get very few reports of such things happening.  Maybe a vast majority either forget or feel reluctant to relate such an amazing experience?

[Gray]

9 minutes ago, longview said:

This is what I was saying earlier in this thread.  Horrible things can happen to the physical body (clay tabernacle) but the spirit being (the "real you") is somewhat insulated from the full impact.  The victim may only see having "gone into shock" or being knocked out or some degree of agony.  But does not really know that the pain has been moderated.   As I stated earlier, in extreme incidents, the spirit being is separated from his physical body and is able to watch "from the corner."  We get very few reports of such things happening.  Maybe a vast majority either forget or feel reluctant to relate such an amazing experience?

As a child, a family member (with a mental illness and developmental issues) beat me to a pulp and tried to drown me. I assure you, there was no insulation. My pleas for divine intervention were met with silence. 

[longview]

19 minutes ago, Gray said:

As a child, a family member (with a mental illness and developmental issues) beat me to a pulp and tried to drown me. I assure you, there was no insulation. My pleas for divine intervention were met with silence. 

I am sorry this happened to you.  It is very horrific.  Much worse than the severe fisticuffs I had with my older brother when we were pre-teens.  But you are not alone.  Are you angry at God for allowing this to happen to you?  Could this experience have caused you to develop more empathy and soberness than otherwise?

[Deborah]

On 4/11/2016 at 8:59 AM, Gray said:

The plan of salvation as presently described still leaves us with an unsolved problem of evil. 

Not unsolved for all. I think it is easily understood. There is good and evil in the universe. People whether in heaven or mortality choose which plan to follow.

[Gray]

1 minute ago, longview said:

I am sorry this happened to you.  It is very horrific.  Much worse than the severe fisticuffs I had with my older brother when we were pre-teens.  But you are not alone.  Are you angry at God for allowing this to happen to you?  Could this experience have caused you to develop more empathy and soberness than otherwise?

Thanks Longview. My experience was bad. I would say it damaged my development in some ways, especially as a teenager. To this day I can't attend swim class with my son. I can be in the water with him but I need to be right next to him. Otherwise my anxiety over him drowning goes through the roof. 

But, maybe my experience also helped me in some ways to be more empathetic. Even at this level of evil, there is at least some possibility for growth or benefit (I don't think it was a net benefit, though). 

However, as bad as my experience was, it was only one time. It never happened again. There are children who experience far worse, and every day. There is a level where trials cease to be a growth opportunity and start to become completely catastrophic. There is no net growth from sexual abuse or torture. A tree can become stronger from exposure to strong winds, but a hurricane will break the tree and there is no more growth. 

We can try to make the best of a bad situation. But that does not mean that every bad situation was for our own good. 

I'm not mad at God - I don't believe in the kind of God who is able to intervene in such ways. I might as well be mad at sun being hot. But when I hear people talk about how God has intervened in trivial ways in their lives, I have to wonder if they've really thought that through. 

[Gray]

14 minutes ago, Deborah said:

Not unsolved for all. I think it is easily understood. There is good and evil in the universe. People whether in heaven or mortality choose which plan to follow.

While I understand that some people feel that it isn't a problem, that doesn't mean that they've been able to articulate an actual answer to the problem of evil. 

[Bobbieaware]

22 hours ago, Gray said:

Again, this doesn't really address many categories of evil which do not impart life lessons and do not lead to growth. If you're talking about typical first world problems, sure, it would be undesirable for a God to remove that kind of opposition. But evil and suffering go far, far beyond that. 

God himself testifies that ALL opposition is instructive:

 5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?(D&C 122)

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Gray]

14 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

God himself testifies that ALL opposition is instructive:

 5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?(D&C 122)

 

I don't think God speaks in first person, but I disagree with that assessment. I can come up with many examples that are not instructive. I hesitate to do so because it would be depressing and graphic.