how is conference?

[Avatar4321]

can't get the audio working and I'm at work. Can see posts from time to time. Anything good?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Platitudes, moral vacuity, and faith-promoting stories about God taking the time to miraculously find lost keys while the Ebola virus rages elsewhere. 

[Garden Girl]

Gosh, JOS... amazing how differently we can receive the messages... reminds me of Pres Eyring's opening talk about the parable of the sower and the seeds falling on poor ground vs good ground... 

GG

 

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Platitudes, moral vacuity, and faith-promoting stories about God taking the time to miraculously find lost keys while the Ebola virus rages elsewhere. 

What an unmercifull and uncharitable way to listen to conference.  It's not surprising that's all you've gotten out of it. 

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

You're right. God's representatives from the One True Church whose words are scripture promise the world that the Lord will lock us out of Heaven unless we perform particular arbitrary rituals, and so mercifully takes the time to send down Elijah (a mass-murderer who killed 555 people) to restore the Keys, rather than heal the victims of Ebola, and any dissatisfaction we might feel about this state of affairs is due to disgruntled entitlement and murmuring and childish whining like Laman and Lemuel who distanced themselves from grace by their derisive skepticism. 

[Raingirl]

6 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

 childish whining

Spot-on description of the content of your posts.

[Okrahomer]

10 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

You're right. God's representatives from the One True Church whose words are scripture promise the world that the Lord will lock us out of Heaven unless we perform particular arbitrary rituals, and so mercifully takes the time to send down Elijah (a mass-murderer who killed 555 people) to restore the Keys, rather than heal the victims of Ebola, and any dissatisfaction we might feel about this state of affairs is due to disgruntled entitlement and murmuring and childish whining like Laman and Lemuel who distanced themselves from grace by their derisive skepticism. 

Hi Jeremy,

I'm a simpleton, but having read and appreciated many of your previous rational, well-reasoned and more dispassionate posts, I am saddened by your "new" voice.  One senses a lot of anger and discouragement in what you say here.  Please, dear brother, don't go further down that road.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I have literally been quoting from the talks. Tell me how it is not obscenely morally vacuous to praise God for nice songs and His 'miraculous' help finding lost keys while at a ski resort even as Ebola victims are dissolving into agonized putrefaction right in front of our eyes? 

 Picture removed. Please do not post photos of dying children.

No, you're right, this is just childish whining. All our hardships have eternal purpose. Hallelujah. 

Edit: this was in response to Raingirl. Okrahomer, thank you for your kind words, but I am, if anything, being more rational and well-reasoning now. Conference was not even a benign waste of time; it was actively promoting absolutely appalling moral reasoning. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I only caught Elder Renlund's talk to close but I really liked it. Very Christ themed.

[Scott Lloyd]

Elder Renlund gave an English translation for my most-loved Swedish Christmas carol, "När juldags morgon glimmar."

I'm ward choir director, and I had already planned for our choir to perform that next Christmas, with as young soloist singing the first verse in Swedish and then the full choir singing a English translation that I found online.

I feel even more validated now in that choice.

Here's the text in English:

http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/when_christmas_morn_is_dawning.htm

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

You're right. God's representatives from the One True Church whose words are scripture promise the world that the Lord will lock us out of Heaven unless we perform particular arbitrary rituals, and so mercifully takes the time to send down Elijah (a mass-murderer who killed 555 people) to restore the Keys, rather than heal the victims of Ebola, and any dissatisfaction we might feel about this state of affairs is due to disgruntled entitlement and murmuring and childish whining like Laman and Lemuel who distanced themselves from grace by their derisive skepticism. 

Get used to the dissatisfaction.  All the complaining will not make things better for you and the sands in the hourglass continue to pass through until you get the opportunity to complain about all the problems of the world with your maker.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

I have literally been quoting from the talks. Tell me how it is not obscenely morally vacuous to praise God for nice songs and His 'miraculous' help finding lost keys while at a ski resort even as Ebola victims are dissolving into agonized putrefaction right in front of our eyes? 

The church is helping people around the world with various problems. Are you listening to the World report showing now?

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Yes. Insofar as the Church does tangible, practical things, obviously it does some good in the world. The point is that these are no different than secular organizations; meanwhile, the Church claims that it has divine help. There is simply zero evidence that this is actually the case. If Priesthood blessings had any actual healing power, we would not have pictures like the one above. This girl talking right now about her surgery describes it as a trial that made her stronger; that might be the case for her, but how does it make someone stronger to die in agony of Ebola? What 'lesson' do we learn except the tautology that 'pain hurts'? It's obscene to hear people claim that God answers these trivial prayers when we have direct evidence that He does not answer the prayers of people who are dying in agony. 

[Deborah]

JO-S, it sounds like you have an issue with God. The church has done a lot in sending aid to ebola victims. It sounds like you want God to heal everyone. This life is a time for trials and each of us have our own trials to face. Some trials are more frightening than others but we don't know the tender mercies that may be with people suffering those. Suffering won't end until Christ comes again. It is part of the experience of this life that we all agreed to before we came here. I think it is a great trial for someone who is trying to live the gospel to have a son suffer a serious head injury and to question why. It shows that trials come to us all no matter how much we try to live righteously. Often trials are a way for others to show compassion toward those suffering. One trial may be for someone like JO-S to see the suffering and question God. For others it is a way of showing compassion and doing what they can to help. I think you are failing to see the big picture.

[strappinglad]

How is Ebola any different than the Plague or the 1918 flu or Malaria, or ISIS or " pick your problem" ? Life is hard and then you die, ya I got it. Here we are pontificating from our easy chair with all the electrical slaves doing our bidding while people are suffering with unimaginable trials elsewhere in the world . Maybe all we can hope for is moving our wagon out of harms way or finding our keys. Did Moses get it right when he said that " and now I know that man is nothing" ? Philosophers have struggled with the problem of good and evil and the unfairness of life since thinking began. If this time is all there is then rational thinking matters not one bit. If, on the other hand, this life is 1 ten millionth of our existence and is like touching a hot stove once in 80 years ,then it behooves us to find out how to live the best life we can and help others do also do so. We can help a neighbor to move his wagon or help look for keys or mourn with those who mourn or... where have I heard that before..??

[busybee]

2 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Platitudes, moral vacuity, and faith-promoting stories about God taking the time to miraculously find lost keys while the Ebola virus rages elsewhere. 

Seriously!!! That's all you got from it? What a shame 

[busybee]

1 hour ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

You're right. God's representatives from the One True Church whose words are scripture promise the world that the Lord will lock us out of Heaven unless we perform particular arbitrary rituals, and so mercifully takes the time to send down Elijah (a mass-murderer who killed 555 people) to restore the Keys, rather than heal the victims of Ebola, and any dissatisfaction we might feel about this state of affairs is due to disgruntled entitlement and murmuring and childish whining like Laman and Lemuel who distanced themselves from grace by their derisive skepticism. 

Well at least you understood that bit. My guess is that was meant just for you.

Edited April 2, 2016 by busybee

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Yes, I have an issue with the idea of God. It's good that the Church sends aid to people in need; it is not good that Priesthood holders claim to have a magical healing power that in practice is no different than the placebo effect, giving false hope to suffering people. Of course I want a God to heal everyone; He promises to eventually, why not now? What conceivable 'purpose' is served by having people splattered into unrecognizable piles of entrails in car accidents? The scriptures say that God pulled up Elijah - a man who murdered 555 people - into Heaven without even tasting death. The scriptures claim that Christ healed innumerable people.

I really don't think I'm the one failing to see the big picture, here.

Edit: this was to Deborah. 

Strappingland: Ebola is no different than the other horrors that have happened in history. That's the point. God didn't do anything then, He doesn't do anything now. It's up to us. If this life is all there is, that makes it infinitely more precious and important that we not anesthetize ourselves to the suffering of others, resting complacently in the assurance that someone in the sky will make it all right in the end. We have to make it right. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[carbon dioxide]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

How is Ebola any different than the Plague or the 1918 flu or Malaria, or ISIS or " pick your problem" ? Life is hard and then you die, ya I got it. Here we are pontificating from our easy chair with all the electrical slaves doing our bidding while people are suffering with unimaginable trials elsewhere in the world . Maybe all we can hope for is moving our wagon out of harms way or finding our keys. Did Moses get it right when he said that " and now I know that man is nothing" ? Philosophers have struggled with the problem of good and evil and the unfairness of life since thinking began. If this time is all there is then rational thinking matters not one bit. If, on the other hand, this life is 1 ten millionth of our existence and is like touching a hot stove once in 80 years ,then it behooves us to find out how to live the best life we can and help others do also do so. We can help a neighbor to move his wagon or help look for keys or mourn with those who mourn or... where have I heard that before..??

There are people who suffer many problems and do not blame God for it.  Here we have a person blaming God for Ebola in his tolerable life while there are people who had Ebola and did not blame God for their afflictions.  If he is miserable now while things are going not to bad for him in relation to others, I wonder how miserable he will be when he afflicted with a serious issue.

Edited April 2, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Yes, I have an issue with the idea of God. It's good that the Church sends aid to people in need; it is not good that Priesthood holders claim to have a magical healing power that in practice is no different than the placebo effect, giving false hope to suffering people. Of course I want a God to heal everyone; He promises to eventually, why not now? What conceivable 'purpose' is served by having people splattered into unrecognizable piles of entrails in car accidents? The scriptures say that God pulled up Elijah - a man who murdered 555 people - into Heaven without even tasting death. The scriptures claim that Christ healed innumerable people.

I really don't think I'm the one failing to see the big picture, here.

CFR that Priesthood holders claim to have magical healing power.  Please provide a reference to a scripture or statement by a church leader that equates the priesthood with magic.

[Garden Girl]

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR that Priesthood holders claim to have magical healing power.  Please provide a reference to a scripture or statement by a church leader that equates the priesthood with magic.

JOS' misunderstanding, so obvious in his posts... his misinterpretation... is staggering.  I say that with no ill will...

GG 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Garden Girl

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

ksfisher: Much like Moses being made into a 'God' [Elohim] in the book of Exodus, in the book of Helaman God gives Nephi the 'sealing power' which allows him to control the weather (ostensibly to prevent bloodshed), which he immediately uses to cause famine and kill thousands of people: 

Helaman 10:6 says "Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. [...] And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass. And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction. [...] And there was a great famine upon the land, among all the people of Nephi. [...] And this work of destruction did also continue in the seventy and fifth year. For the earth was smitten that it was dry, and did not yield forth grain in the season of grain; and the whole earth was smitten, even among the Lamanites as well as among the Nephites, so that they were smitten that they did perish by thousands."

Oh, whoops, that's not a 'healing' power, that's the creator of the universe giving a man the magical power to become a mass murderer. It's never actually explained how God heals people through the Priesthood, so until someone in authority receives a revelation detailing the physics of how all this is supposed to work, I'll go with 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'.

In James 5:14, Christ claims: "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick." 

I hereby pray that all people currently suffering from Ebola are instantly healed. *waits a few minutes* Well, I don't see anything on the news about a mass healing. Did God not heal them because I didn't anoint them with oil first, or because I prayed openly to be seen of men, without going into my closet first? How odd that mortal human doctors so rarely require such meaningless hoops to be jumped through. 

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Yes, I have an issue with the idea of God. It's good that the Church sends aid to people in need; it is not good that Priesthood holders claim to have a magical healing power that in practice is no different than the placebo effect, giving false hope to suffering people. Of course I want a God to heal everyone; He promises to eventually, why not now? What conceivable 'purpose' is served by having people splattered into unrecognizable piles of entrails in car accidents? The scriptures say that God pulled up Elijah - a man who murdered 555 people - into Heaven without even tasting death. The scriptures claim that Christ healed innumerable people.

I really don't think I'm the one failing to see the big picture, here.

Edit: this was to Deborah. 

Strappingland: Ebola is no different than the other horrors that have happened in history. That's the point. God didn't do anything then, He doesn't do anything now. It's up to us. If this life is all there is, that makes it infinitely more precious and important that we not anesthetize ourselves to the suffering of others, resting complacently in the assurance that someone in the sky will make it all right in the end. We have to make it right. 

You seem to want to insist on your own definition of what or who God is. All we have are the scriptures and prophets that can give us that information. And the scriptures tell us that good and bad people suffer hardships. 

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matt 5: 45)

Of course Jesus healed lots of people. I have seen many people healed also through the priesthood and faith.  Some are not healed and for those who aren't God said:

"And the elders of the church, two or more, shall be called, and shall pray for and lay their hands upon them in my name; and if they die they shall die unto me, and if they live they shall live unto me."  (D&C 42: 44)

If we are supposed to love and help others who are suffering as we are told in the scriptures, it makes sense that there are going to have to be people suffering so we can obey this command.

How can you know that your definition of who God should be is the correct one when all the scriptures and prophets tell us something different? 
 

[ksfisher]

2 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

ksfisher: Much like Moses being made into a 'God' [Elohim] in the book of Exodus, in the book of Helaman God gives Nephi the 'sealing power' which allows him to control the weather (ostensibly to prevent bloodshed), which he immediately uses to cause famine and kill thousands of people: 

Helaman 10:6 says "Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people. [...] And behold, if ye shall say that God shall smite this people, it shall come to pass. And now behold, I command you, that ye shall go and declare unto this people, that thus saith the Lord God, who is the Almighty: Except ye repent ye shall be smitten, even unto destruction. [...] And there was a great famine upon the land, among all the people of Nephi. [...] And this work of destruction did also continue in the seventy and fifth year. For the earth was smitten that it was dry, and did not yield forth grain in the season of grain; and the whole earth was smitten, even among the Lamanites as well as among the Nephites, so that they were smitten that they did perish by thousands."

Oh, whoops, that's not a 'healing' power, that's the creator of the universe giving a man the magical power to become a mass murderer. It's never actually explained how God heals people through the Priesthood, so until someone in authority receives a revelation detailing the physics of how all this is supposed to work, I'll go with 'any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'.

In James 5:14, Christ claims: "Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick." 

I hereby pray that all people currently suffering from Ebola are instantly healed. *waits a few minutes* Well, I don't see anything on the news about a mass healing. Did God not heal them because I didn't anoint them with oil first, or because I prayed openly to be seen of men, without going into my closet first? How odd that mortal human doctors so rarely require such meaningless hoops to be jumped through. 

Again, CFR that anywhere in the scriptures God equates his priesthood with magic.  Or anywhere in statements, ancient or modern, where they have described the priesthood or equated it with magic.

Please provide a reference or retract your statement that "Priesthood holders claim to have magical healing powers."

[Avatar4321]

30 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Yes, I have an issue with the idea of God. It's good that the Church sends aid to people in need; it is not good that Priesthood holders claim to have a magical healing power that in practice is no different than the placebo effect, giving false hope to suffering people. Of course I want a God to heal everyone; He promises to eventually, why not now? What conceivable 'purpose' is served by having people splattered into unrecognizable piles of entrails in car accidents? The scriptures say that God pulled up Elijah - a man who murdered 555 people - into Heaven without even tasting death. The scriptures claim that Christ healed innumerable people.

I really don't think I'm the one failing to see the big picture, here.

Edit: this was to Deborah. 

Strappingland: Ebola is no different than the other horrors that have happened in history. That's the point. God didn't do anything then, He doesn't do anything now. It's up to us. If this life is all there is, that makes it infinitely more precious and important that we not anesthetize ourselves to the suffering of others, resting complacently in the assurance that someone in the sky will make it all right in the end. We have to make it right. 

I've been healed by the priesthood so its not just some magical placebo effect. But the healing the priesthood focuses on is spiritual healing. Heal the inward vessel first.