how is conference?

[JAHS]

Some jerk just loudly voted no on the sustaining of the church authorities. 

 

[strappinglad]

If this life is all there is, then life is not " precious" at all. It is pure luck and it can totally disappear with the collision of a massive cosmic body. It won't matter if we were nice to people or not UNLESS ,the goal is to preserve life and improve it to the point where humans discover the immortality gene and over time become ' gods ' and go out and establish colonies and teach the people there to treat their lives as precious so that they can progress to join with the ' gods' to build more colonies, all for the purpose of..... well, that's for another discussion. Mind you, every so often the gods will have to arrange for the elimination of half or more of the population because the earth has only so many resources and can't withstand the destructive power of 100 billions humans.

Where is Ray when you need him.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

Edit: this was to JAHS:

All you're proving is that the concept of God is completely incoherent and contradictory. The scriptures say one thing, then another. 

Can God heal people, or can't He? We get competing theories: 

Exodus 23:25 says "ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee."

A yet, just a few chapters later: 

Numbers 5:1 says "the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

So, in one of the very few egalitarian passages in the Bible, God promises to treat men and women equally by refusing to heal them and making them into outcasts so He is in no danger of being defiled. If He wanted to, He claims that he could heal all these lepers and people with issues and dead people. If with God, "nothing shall be impossible", why can't He just heal these people already? 

If these scriptures are actually accurate, we have a horrifically capricious God, here, and the only rational response to this being raining fire and brimstone down upon us sinners is to band together to fight it. 

(I sincerely doubt, by the way, that anyone in this thread has actually seen anyone healed by the Priesthood, though of course, statistically, there might be a slight few occurrences of people getting better for causally-unrelated reasons.) 

Edited April 2, 2016 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

I hereby retract the particular wording I used when I characterized the Priesthood as claiming 'magical' healing powers (obviously they wouldn't use that particular word themselves, since it is too accurate a description of the illusory nature of what they're doing), despite the obvious fact that this mindlessly pedantic quibbling ignores the even more obvious fact that until we actually understand how God supposedly does this, it certainly functions as 'magic', and it's obscene to argue about the semantics of this particular word, when the point is that the healing power, whatever word we use to describe it, is empirically useless. 

[SteveO]

Jeremy,

I get it, your eyes are opened, you're concerned with the far more pressing issues of the day.  What bothers me though, is your thinking that somehow we're not aware.  You and people like you think your doubts and questioning gives you "street cred"--and then thinking those doubts and questions are unknown to TBMs.

We know.  We really do.  I've read the same stuff you have and then some.  I've struggled with the same things you are presently.  I've felt the paralyzing fear of doubt and the consuming bitterness of cynicism.  You're not special in any of this.  If you want to go through life pissed off all the time...go right ahead. The only thing you'll manage to change is the willingness of people to be around you

I suggest you take the conference advice from this morning and be humble and learn something this weekend--or don't.  But don't come on here with a smug attitude thinking you're gonna show us how misplaced our attention and efforts are.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

If representatives of the One True Church are standing at a pulpit in front of millions of people and the best they can do is claim that God is miraculously finding their lost keys while He does absolutely nothing to heal the victims of Ebola even though He could cure them in the twinkling of an eye, then yes, their attention and efforts are massively misplaced. And based on some of the stereotyped replies here, I seriously doubt that all people are as thoughtful as one might wish to believe they are. 

[mfbukowski]

33 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Edit: this was to JAHS:

All you're proving is that the concept of God is completely incoherent and contradictory. The scriptures say one thing, then another. 

Can God heal people, or can't He? We get competing theories: 

Exodus 23:25 says "ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee."

A yet, just a few chapters later: 

Numbers 5:1 says "the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

So, in one of the very few egalitarian passages in the Bible, God promises to treat men and women equally by refusing to heal them and making them into outcasts so He is in no danger of being defiled. If He wanted to, He claims that he could heal all these lepers and people with issues and dead people. If with God, "nothing shall be impossible", why can't He just heal these people already? 

If these scriptures are actually accurate, we have a horrifically capricious God, here, and the only rational response to this being raining fire and brimstone down upon us sinners is to band together to fight it. 

(I sincerely doubt, by the way, that anyone in this thread has actually seen anyone healed by the Priesthood, though of course, statistically, there might be a slight few occurrences of people getting better for causally-unrelated reasons.) 

I have.

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Edit: this was to JAHS:

All you're proving is that the concept of God is completely incoherent and contradictory. The scriptures say one thing, then another. 

Can God heal people, or can't He? We get competing theories: 

Exodus 23:25 says "ye shall serve the Lord your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee."

A yet, just a few chapters later: 

Numbers 5:1 says "the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is defiled by the dead: both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell.

So, in one of the very few egalitarian passages in the Bible, God promises to treat men and women equally by refusing to heal them and making them into outcasts so He is in no danger of being defiled. If He wanted to, He claims that he could heal all these lepers and people with issues and dead people. If with God, "thing shall be impossible", why can't He just heal these people already? 

If the scriptures are actually accurate, we have a horrifically capricious God, here, and the only rational response to this being raining fire and brimstone down upon us sinners is to band together to fight it. 

(I sincerely doubt, by the way, that anyone in this thread has actually seen anyone healed by the Priesthood, though of course, statistically, there might be a slight few occurrences of people getting better for causally-unrelated reasons.) 

You know you could just say there is no God and leave it at that. We will accept your opinion if you can accept our opinions. It all makes perfect sense to me. When God does want someone to be healed it is not just Him that is involved in it; we know that faith in Him to heal must be also be demonstrated by the one being healed. 

The Numbers 1: 5 scripture is simply one of a practical medical caution so others would not be infected with leprosy. Nowhere does it say that He did not heal them. Perhaps He did go to them and heal them, but He didn't want anyone else to become infected. 

I personally have seen others, including myself, healed by faith and the priesthood and other miracles. And it requires faith to understand that those healings were not just by medical intervention or natural processes.   

 

[mfbukowski]

What is amazing is that you Jeremy, used to understand ambiguous truth.

Now it seems you are a believer in scientism.

Odd.  It usually goes the other way.

[SteveO]

On a more positive note--Elder Anderson's talk just now...so needed in many parts of the world.  I mentioned to my wife that I think the church is going to explode in Africa in the coming years.

Edited April 2, 2016 by SteveO

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

Platitudes, moral vacuity, and faith-promoting stories about God taking the time to miraculously find lost keys while the Ebola virus rages elsewhere. 

No, that is about this thread.

The question was about conference.

It is wonderful.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

To those who are claiming that they have personally seen miraculous healings, could you please describe these instances in detail, without retreating into the convenient 'too sacred to talk about ' cop-out? Because I predict that in every single case, the only evidence that the healing was predicated on a Priesthood blessing or prayer will be correlation, not causation. Not to be a cliche, but 'God doesn't heal amputees'. If we're going to go the Alma 14 route and claim that God is fine with standing by watching while innocents are burned alive, and then in the very next chapter Alma and Amulek go to Sidon and use God's Priesthood to heal a mere fever, that is one scary God. 

[SteveO]

2 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

To those who are claiming that they have personally seen miraculous healings, could you please describe these instances in detail, without retreating into the convenient 'too sacred to talk about ' cop-out? Because I predict that in every single case, the only evidence that the healing was predicated on a Priesthood blessing or prayer will be correlation, not causation. Not to be a cliche, but 'God doesn't heal amputees'. If we're going to go the Alma 14 route and claim that God is fine with standing by watching while innocents are burned alive, and then in the very next chapter Alma and Amulek go to Sidon and use God's Priesthood to heal a mere fever, that is one scary God. 

Give it a rest already.  I'm more interested in hearing people's thoughts and impressions from conference.  Your present attitude shows you just want to argue.  Sharing the sacred with you at this point would be casting pearls before swine.

[Garden Girl]

13 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I've been healed by the priesthood so its not just some magical placebo effect. But the healing the priesthood focuses on is spiritual healing. Heal the inward vessel first.

I too, Avatar, was healed after suffering years off and on, and finally, continuing seriously in the 3 weeks prior to numerous tests which resulted in a scheduled surgery... On Sunday I received a Priesthood blessing, and on the next Tuesday I went in for the surgery... a final test showed all to be normal, baffling my cardiologist... that was about seven years ago.  And since the day of my blessing I have not had one... not one... symptom or attack.

GG

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Some jerk just loudly voted no on the sustaining of the church authorities. 

 

Just one?  That approach lost momentum fast if so (perhaps only one was close enough to mics to be heard).

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

 

Where is Ray when you need him.

Lost me, please take pity and explain.

[Traela]

One of my friends in high school developed a condition that was going to leave her blind.  After a priesthood blessing (no surgery or other medical intervention) her vision was restored.  Why her and not someone else?  Possibly for the same reason loving parents will treat their children differently-because different children need different things.

I have spent literally years inflicting various unpleasant, to outright misery-inducing, procedures on my three youngest children, in hopes of making their lives better in the long run.  I have no problem believing in a god who does the same thing in an eternal, spiritual sense.

[Mystery Meat]

8 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

To those who are claiming that they have personally seen miraculous healings, could you please describe these instances in detail, without retreating into the convenient 'too sacred to talk about ' cop-out? Because I predict that in every single case, the only evidence that the healing was predicated on a Priesthood blessing or prayer will be correlation, not causation. Not to be a cliche, but 'God doesn't heal amputees'. If we're going to go the Alma 14 route and claim that God is fine with standing by watching while innocents are burned alive, and then in the very next chapter Alma and Amulek go to Sidon and use God's Priesthood to heal a mere fever, that is one scary God. 

Based on your actions, spirit and attitude here, I will decline as my sacred pearls would be lost on you and I have no desire to cast them into the pig sty. They are sacred and of God; I have no inclination for such to be mocked.

[sunstoned]

59 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Some jerk just loudly voted no on the sustaining of the church authorities. 

 

If the they don't want the feedback they should not call for a vote. 

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, sunstoned said:

If the they don't want the feedback they should not call for a vote. 

I'm sure the bretheren's feelings aren't hurt by the pathetic cries for attention 

[gopher]

3 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

If the they don't want the feedback they should not call for a vote. 

Wait, was it you?

[VideoGameJunkie]

It must be awkward to sit next to the guy that cried out no. He's probably getting stared at the whole conference.

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

If the they don't want the feedback they should not call for a vote. 

Not saying they would never want the feed back, but these negative votes are only attention getting devices for someone else's cause. A negative vote is supposed to be used if someone personally knows of some reason that no one else knows about that would make the person unworthy to serve in the position. It is not supposed to be used for someone's personal objection about a particular church doctrine or policy. 

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

To those who are claiming that they have personally seen miraculous healings, could you please describe these instances in detail, without retreating into the convenient 'too sacred to talk about ' cop-out? Because I predict that in every single case, the only evidence that the healing was predicated on a Priesthood blessing or prayer will be correlation, not causation. Not to be a cliche, but 'God doesn't heal amputees'. If we're going to go the Alma 14 route and claim that God is fine with standing by watching while innocents are burned alive, and then in the very next chapter Alma and Amulek go to Sidon and use God's Priesthood to heal a mere fever, that is one scary God. 

My father was diagnosed with heptatis (whatever medical tests they were using).  Sent home from military to recover.  At next checkup (after blessing), no trace of the disease was found when it should have been.

I don't know why Dad would be healed (if he was) when he was always somewhat flippant about such things when Mom continued to suffer all of her life while exercising great faith as well as lots of personal effort.  It seems unjust in my eyes as does pretty much the entire world.  All I know is .i have felt the presence of God in my own life that while intellectually I can imagine such is just neurological impulses and coincidences, emotionally I know God is there.  And I have chosen to love him for what I believe I see that he is doing and to trust that when it appears he is absent, that it is my limited mortal mind that is getting it wrong.  It is the way it makes the most sense to me.  We each have to make sense of the world through our own experiences, it doesn't work very long to rely on others', imo.

I hope whatever choice you make to see the world as, it brings you happiness and peace and if necessary, you can forgive those of us who can have joy and security in what you see as scary (not because we are callous to others' pain or trivialize it, we just are able to still see a loving God acting in our paradigm...LDS find it hard to see the way Calvinists see God as other than monstrous and yet I trust they see their belief as demonstrating the ultimate form of love so I am not at all surprised or upset when it happens to us though it saddens me).

[JAHS]

Is that grass growing behind the podium?