how is conference?

[Gray]

8 hours ago, longview said:

Sure there are sufferings.  But you don't get to second guess what is needless or needful.  The Atonement takes care of all aspects of mortal experiences.

You're talking about hypothetically healing the brokenness after the fact. But that doesn't address the needless suffering that goes on every day. By needless I mean does not lead to growth and does not impart a lesson. 

8 hours ago, longview said:

Have you heard stories of some people who underwent traumatic experiences but were spared the full agony when their spirits separated from their physical bodies?  I read of a couple where a child is being raped but was able to watch from the corner of the room.  Or the "interfaces" between body and spirit can be muted to some degree.  In any case, I am sure there will be complete psychic healing and peace in the next stage.

Sometimes the body will go into shock as a defense mechanism. But that doesn't erase or address the suffering and brokenness. 

 

8 hours ago, longview said:

Your moniker as "progressive mormon" may indicate your preference for the "humanist point of view."  The Book of Mormon is the world's greatest commentary on the Bible.  Therefore my preference is the LDS point of view correlated with all the standard works and "harmonized" with my own spiritual witness and feedback (both in study and life experiences).

The Book of Mormon does not provide an answer for the problem of evil. While traditional theism with its infinite and all-powerful God experiences this problem more acutely, it is still a problem for Mormon theology. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

You're talking about hypothetically healing the brokenness after the fact. But that doesn't address the needless suffering that goes on every day. By needless I mean does not lead to growth and does not impart a lesson. 

Just because you and probably the rest of us are not immediately or even longterm aware of growth and learning does not mean it does not exist.  Even our limited mortal awareness is more expansive in some ways than is easily recognized.  Add in the concept of a more mature spirit and an eternally existing intelligence which may be learning even when a body is in a total vegetative state and nothing that occurs to a human being becomes meaningless.

This is, of course, amatter of faith just as believing there is no growth or learning is a faith position as well.  

[cdowis]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

The Book of Mormon does not provide an answer for the problem of evil. While traditional theism with its infinite and all-powerful God experiences this problem more acutely, it is still a problem for Mormon theology. 

I see it as a problem only for those who do not have an understanding of the Plan of Salvation.  I see no particular problem anymore than I know the specific details of the creation or the Great Flood.

[Gray]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just because you and probably the rest of us are not immediately or even longterm aware of growth and learning does not mean it does not exist.  Even our limited mortal awareness is more expansive in some ways than is easily recognized.  Add in the concept of a more mature spirit and an eternally existing intelligence which may be learning even when a body is in a total vegetative state and nothing that occurs to a human being becomes meaningless.

This is, of course, amatter of faith just as believing there is no growth or learning is a faith position as well.  

That is all entirely hypothetical, and does not accord with what we actually observe to be happening with some categories of harm. Either the person experiencing it is too young to understand it, or the harm is such that it causes brokenness rather than growth. No faith is required there - that's just straight observation. 

 

 

[Gray]

32 minutes ago, cdowis said:

I see it as a problem only for those who do not have an understanding of the Plan of Salvation.  I see no particular problem anymore than I know the specific details of the creation or the Great Flood.

I understand the plan of salvation, and I think you do too. So far no one has been able to come up with a solution for the problem of evil that is consistent with Mormon theology, and does not defer the question to the afterlife. The best people seem to be able to do is exude a confidence that someday the problem will be solved. 

Edited April 6, 2016 by Gray

[cdowis]

29 minutes ago, Gray said:

I understand the plan of salvation, and I think you do too. So far no one has been able to come up with a solution for the problem of evil that is consistent with Mormon theology, and does not defer the question to the afterlife. The best people seem to be able to do is exude a confidence that someday the problem will be solved. 

No one has asked me.  

I understand the difference between a "solution", which we do have as the Plan of Salvation,  and a knowledge of the details, which, in this life, are unavailable to us.  And this is consistent with Mormon theology.

You ae demanding that God tells all the details in this life.  The revelation of the Plan of Salvation is not good enough for you?
Why not the creation.  The translation of the Book of Mormon -- those Isaiah passages.  The Great Flood.  Do atoms have intelligence.

Lots of details and so little time.

Edited April 6, 2016 by cdowis

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

That is all entirely hypothetical, and does not accord with what we actually observe to be happening with some categories of harm. Either the person experiencing it is too young to understand it, or the harm is such that it causes brokenness rather than growth. 

 

Except that may be because we lack the abilty to separate out growth because its evidence must wait if a child is too young to express such concepts/behaviour.  And any growth can then be attributed to other conditions.  Got to go.

[longview]

13 hours ago, Gray said:

While traditional theism with its infinite and all-powerful God experiences this problem more acutely, it is still a problem for Mormon theology. 

Here is an example of how God can ameliorate some sufferings in the "here and now":

Mosiah 24:

10 And it came to pass that so great were their afflictions that they began to cry mightily to God.

 11 And Amulon commanded them that they should stop their cries; and he put guards over them to watch them, that whosoever should be found calling upon God should be put to death.

 12 And Alma and his people did not raise their voices to the Lord their God, but did pour out their hearts to him; and he did know the thoughts of their hearts.

 13 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came to them in their afflictions, saying: Lift up your heads and be of good comfort, for I know of the covenant which ye have made unto me; and I will covenant with my people and deliver them out of bondage.

 14 And I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions.

 15 And now it came to pass that the burdens which were laid upon Alma and his brethren were made light; yea, the Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up theirburdens with ease, and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord.

 16 And it came to pass that so great was their faith and their patience that the voice of the Lord came unto them again, saying: Be of good comfort, for on the morrow I will deliver you out of bondage.

 17 And he said unto Alma: Thou shalt go before this people, and I will go with thee and deliver this people out of bondage.

[Gray]

9 hours ago, longview said:

Here is an example of how God can ameliorate some sufferings in the "here and now":

Mosiah 24:

10 And it came to pass that so great were their afflictions that they began to cry mightily to God.

 11 And Amulon commanded them that they should stop their cries; and he put guards over them to watch them, that whosoever should be found calling upon God should be put to death.

 12 And Alma and his people did not raise their voices to the Lord their God, but did pour out their hearts to him; and he did know the thoughts of their hearts.

 13 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came to them in their afflictions, saying: Lift up your heads and be of good comfort, for I know of the covenant which ye have made unto me; and I will covenant with my people and deliver them out of bondage.

 14 And I will also ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders, that even you cannot feel them upon your backs, even while you are in bondage; and this will I do that ye may stand as witnesses for me hereafter, and that ye may know of a surety that I, the Lord God, do visit my people in their afflictions.

 15 And now it came to pass that the burdens which were laid upon Alma and his brethren were made light; yea, the Lord did strengthen them that they could bear up theirburdens with ease, and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord.

 16 And it came to pass that so great was their faith and their patience that the voice of the Lord came unto them again, saying: Be of good comfort, for on the morrow I will deliver you out of bondage.

 17 And he said unto Alma: Thou shalt go before this people, and I will go with thee and deliver this people out of bondage.

Unfortunately many people don't experience this. This just adds to the problem of evil - cases where God in theory could intervene but does not. 

[Gray]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Except that may be because we lack the abilty to separate out growth because its evidence must wait if a child is too young to express such concepts/behaviour.  And any growth can then be attributed to other conditions.  Got to go.

Many such experiences result in death. No time for even hypothetical growth. 

[Gray]

18 hours ago, cdowis said:

No one has asked me.  

I understand the difference between a "solution", which we do have as the Plan of Salvation,  and a knowledge of the details, which, in this life, are unavailable to us.  And this is consistent with Mormon theology.

You ae demanding that God tells all the details in this life.  The revelation of the Plan of Salvation is not good enough for you?
Why not the creation.  The translation of the Book of Mormon -- those Isaiah passages.  The Great Flood.  Do atoms have intelligence.

Lots of details and so little time.

The plan of salvation does not address the problem of evil. That's exactly the point - to solve the problem while maintaining a belief in an intervening God, one needs access to those details. 

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

The plan of salvation does not address the problem of evil. That's exactly the point - to solve the problem while maintaining a belief in an intervening God, one needs access to those details. 

Lehi's sermon in 2 Nephi 2 solves the problem of evil. In this especially enlightening chapter of the Book of Mormom, Lehi testifies that good and evil had no beginning and will have no end. He asserts by divine revelation that good and evil exist as uncreated principles of eternal opposition, forever affixed within a framework of existence predicated upon the necessity of there being diametric opposition in all things. Because all things can exist only within a reality based unalterably on the principle of opposition in all things, evil cannot be destroyed without the collateral damage of God ceasing to be God and having all things that exist vanishing into permanent non-existence.

A perfectly good God has no power nor meaning without intelligences of perfect evil being engaged in a warfare of perpetual opposition against him. Because evil is an eternal reality that cannot be destroyed nor wished away, and because evil's neverending mission is to malevolently strive to destroy all that is good, intelligences who desire to be good -- as God is good --  must, of necessity, engage evil in a life or death struggle of eternal consequence. 

The atoning sacrifice of Christ is the preeminent example of a successfully conducted war waged against the forces of evil, powerfully demonstrating that not even the almighty God himself is exempt from the necessity of overcoming evil in a fair fight of real danger and jeopardy. By successfully enduring his atoning sacrifice, the prophet Joseph Smith testified that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered contradictions of injustice and unfairness more that any other being, thereby demonstrating to humanity that no one should be surprised if they too find themselves suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune as an iindispensable part of their education to learn how to overcome and control evil. The outrageous injustices perpetrated against the very Son of God (sufferings that caused the Savior to descend below all things in exquisite suffering and sorrow) are the very means employed by the Father to test Christ's faith and loyalty. By triumphantly passing the Father's unimaginably difficult trial, Christ was able to prove himself and ascend in glory above all things.

There is no way to obtain eternal joy and happiness other than to choose to be anxiously and valiantly engaged in a personalized version of the same struggle the Savior successfully endured. Those who refuse to accept the reality of things as they really are -- as initially unpleasant and unjust as it all might seem to be -- will be relegated to kingdoms of glory reflective of their unwillingness to accept life as it really is and enduring it well. it's less than useless for a man to wish he were living in an existence not affirmed on the eternal principle of opposition in all things. The innocent Christ shows that the test is not easy, for when he was faced with the supreme injustice of having to drink to the dregs the bitter cup of everybody else's sins, a part of him shrank from the task. But as he testified to those Nephites to whom he personally ministered, patiently enduring apparent act of supreme injustice brought him an eternal fullness of joy and love.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Lehi's sermon in 2 Nephi 2 solves the problem of evil. In this especially enlightening chapter of the Book of Mormom, Lehi testifies that good and evil had no beginning and will have no end. He asserts by divine revelation that good and evil exist as uncreated principles of eternal opposition, forever affixed within a framework of existence predicated upon the necessity of there being diametric opposition in all things. Because all things can exist only within a reality based unalterably on the principle of opposition in all things, evil cannot be destroyed without the collateral damage of God ceasing to be God and having all things that exist vanishing into permanent non-existence.

A perfectly good God has no power nor meaning without intelligences of perfect evil being engaged in a warfare of perpetual opposition against him. Because evil is an eternal reality that cannot be destroyed nor wished away, and because evil's neverending mission is to malevolently strive to destroy all that is good, intelligences who desire to be good -- as God is good --  must, of necessity, engage evil in a life or death struggle of eternal consequence. 

The atoning sacrifice of Christ is the preeminent example of a successfully conducted war waged against the forces of evil, powerfully demonstrating that not even the almighty God himself is exempt from the necessity of overcoming evil in a fair fight of real danger and jeopardy. By successfully enduring his atoning sacrifice, the prophet Joseph Smith testified that the Lord Jesus Christ suffered contradictions of injustice and unfairness more that any other being, thereby demonstrating to humanity that no one should be surprised if they too find themselves suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, as an integral and indispesable part of their education to learn how to overcome and control evil. The outrageous injustices perpetrated against the very Son of God (sufferings that caused the Savior to descend below all things in exquisite suffering and sorrow) are the very means employed by the Father to test Christ's faith and loyalty. By triumphantly passing the Father's unimaginably difficult trial, Christ was able to prove himself and ascend in glory above all things.

There is no way to obtain eternal joy and happiness, other than to choose to be anxiously and valiantly engaged in a personalized version of the same struggle the Savior successfully endured. Those who refuse to accept the reality of things as they really are -- as initially unpleasant and unjust as it all might seem to be -- will be relegated to kingdoms of glory reflective of their unwillingness to accept life as it really is and choosing to endure it well. it's less than useless for a man to wish he were living in an existence not affirmed on the eternal principle of opposition in all things. The innocent Christ shows that the test is not easy, for when he was faced with the supreme injustice of having to drink to the dregs the bitter cup of everybody else's sins, a part of him shrank from the task. But as he testified to those Nephites to whom he personally ministered, patiently enduring apparent act of supreme injustice brought him an eternal fullness of joy and love.

The examples of God intervening to thwart evil in scripture (including the Book of Mormon) are numerous. The problem of evil remains unsolved. Remember, it's not simply about why does evil exist at all. 

[Bobbieaware]

24 minutes ago, Gray said:

The examples of God intervening to thwart evil in scripture (including the Book of Mormon) are numerous. The problem of evil remains unsolved. Remember, it's not simply about why does evil exist at all. 

Not to appear arrogant, but if you will carefully read and ponder my post you will have your answer. But there's a difference between receiving the right answer and believing the right answer. Again, the answer is simple: Existence is presided over by an omnipotent, omniscient, all-wise, perfectly benevolent and perfectly loving God. This perfect God knows when and when not to miraculously intervene in the affairs of men. In the Book of Mormon we are informed that God does nothing except that which is for the eternal benefit of man. , So he knows when to and when not to miraculously intervene. After all the truth is clearly set forth to solve the so-called "problem of evil," the last missing ingredient is faith. Faith that the scriptures speak the truth when they testify that God is perfectly wise and perfectly loving.

But if one lacks such faith and trust, no matter how perfect and definitive the answers might be, "the problem of evil" will never be solved. Faith is the answer, The first principle of the Gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But if one does not have the faith and trust to believe God is perfect, then that individual is on a rhetorical hamster wheel that spins around and around for endless miles but never goes anywhere. When the Savior encountered a lack of faith in the people of his day, his antidote was very simple indeed: "Doubt not but be believing." The scripture teach us that without living faith it is impossible please and know God.

But as for me and my house, we will choose to believe that God is a God of miracles and that in his infinite wisdom he knows when and when not to miraculously intervene in the affairs of men. Even so, I don't think less of people who find it difficult to just believe. The people who struggle in this way may just have the kinds of minds that will have to slog through years of debate before they are finallybprepared to take those first steps into the darkness before they see the light.

[cdowis]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

The plan of salvation does not address the problem of evil. That's exactly the point - to solve the problem while maintaining a belief in an intervening God, one needs access to those details. 

Obviously we have a fundamental disagreement.  I suggest that you study it out for yourself, as I have done, with scripture study and prayer.

Sorry,but otherwise I am unable to help you.  I wish you all the best.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Gray said:

Many such experiences result in death. No time for even hypothetical growth. 

Unless one assumes there is a spirit and/or intelligence.

Edited April 7, 2016 by Calm

[Gray]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

Not to appear arrogant, but if you will carefully read and ponder my post you will have your answer. But there's a difference between receiving the right answer and believing the right answer. Again, the answer is simple: Existence is presided over by an omnipotent, omniscient, all-wise, perfectly benevolent and perfectly loving God. This perfect God knows when and when not to miraculously intervene in the affairs of men. In the Book of Mormon we are informed that God does nothing except that which is for the eternal benefit of man. , So he knows when to and when not to miraculously intervene. After all the truth is clearly set forth to solve the so-called "problem of evil," the last missing ingredient is faith. Faith that the scriptures speak the truth when they testify that God is perfectly wise and perfectly loving.

But if one lacks such faith and trust, no matter how perfect and definitive the answers might be, "the problem of evil" will never be solved. Faith is the answer, The first principle of the Gospel is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But if one does not have the faith and trust to believe God is perfect, then that individual is on a rhetorical hamster wheel that spins around and around for endless miles but never goes anywhere. When the Savior encountered a lack of faith in the people of his day, his antidote was very simple indeed: "Doubt not but be believing." The scripture teach us that without living faith it is impossible please and know God.

But as for me and my house, we will choose to believe that God is a God of miracles and that in his infinite wisdom he knows when and when not to miraculously intervene in the affairs of men. Even so, I don't think less of people who find it difficult to just believe. The people who struggle in this way may just have the kinds of minds that will have to slog through years of debate before they are finallybprepared to take those first steps into the darkness before they see the light.

You're using faith to bridge the gap where it doesn't make sense for a good God to fail to intervene. While faith may be a reasonable approach for a religious person to take in life, that same approach is what is stopping you from being able to solve the problem of evil. "Just because we should have faith" does not answer the question. 

[Gray]

6 minutes ago, cdowis said:

Obviously we have a fundamental disagreement.  I suggest that you study it out for yourself, as I have done, with scripture study and prayer.

Sorry,but otherwise I am unable to help you.  I wish you all the best.

My best to you as well

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unless one assumes there is a spirit and/or intelligence.

No, not really. We're talking about pure damage to human well being, and then death. There are no life lessons when you have no life. 

[cdowis]

On 4/6/2016 at 2:50 PM, Gray said:

I understand the plan of salvation

Perhaps therein lies the problem.  Again I cannot pretend to be able help you, but may I suggest that you really do not understand the Plan of Salvation.  Consider starting your journey with that premise ==>>  start from the very beginning, from your assumptions.

Otherwise, get your lamp, and, like Diogenes, search for the one man who can answer your question.  Eventually that path can only lead back to yourself.

Edited April 7, 2016 by cdowis

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

No, not really. We're talking about pure damage to human well being, and then death. There are no life lessons when you have no life. 

If the spirit continues to live and be aware, there is life.

[Gray]

Just now, Calm said:

If the spirit continues to live and be aware, there is life.

Presumably there is such a thing as death? And presumably the real growth happens in life - now is the time to prepare to meet God, etc. There are so many examples of suffering that serve no positive purpose. It's just damage. The best one can hope is that the damage can be healed, but it would be callous to say that there was some greater purpose to some of the horrific things that happen. 

[cdowis]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

There are so many examples of suffering that serve no positive purpose. It's just damage. 

An assumption.

[Gray]

18 minutes ago, cdowis said:

An assumption.

It would be an assumption to think otherwise. Do I need to list examples of some horrific things that have gone on on this planet?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Gray said:

It would be callous to say that there was some greater purpose to some of the horrific things that happen. 

In your opinion.

I personally don't know save I do believe it when God through the scriptures and my own personal witness states he can turn all things to our good.

I have known a number of people who have gone through horrific things, including one family that experienced the kidnap and rape of their 6 year old daughter.  Many of them have been sustained by a belief there is a greater purpose to life and to both the joy and the suffering than just enduring/survival.

My 12 year old daughter (now 25) got angry with me when I was talking about how we could use the motivation of controlling her diabetes to make some positive, healthy changes in our lifestyle.  She said it sounded like I thought her getting diabetes was a good thing. I didn't.  It happened to her, it happened to our family.  We could let it pull us under, tread water to simply stay afloat or start swimming to get to a better place than we were not only right then, but better than before the tsunami that was diabetes hit us.  Unfortunately it was several years before she was willing to start swimming (understandably so, but I will skip those details); now she sees her experiences and current hardships (still not wanted by any of us) as something that has helped her become a more understanding, kind person because she has chosen to take that path.  She is agnostic so she sees it as an effort by herself and her family and friends, not necessarily guided by God but it is easy enough for us who see God's hand in all things to believe he was helping in his way just as the rest of us who love her are.