how is conference?

[Gray]

27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No i'm not saying that.  We don't know why we each get the trials we do.  Sometimes it's because of the evil of others, sometimes the fallen world, and sometimes our own choices to distance ourselves from divine help and guidance.  We also don't know the benefit that trials provide or the help that is given because of them.  I have experienced benefits from trials and suffering that no one would be able to see from the outside.

I know i have a 14 year old son who (multiple times a day) tells me that something i'm requiring him to do is 'stupid' or 'makes no sense' or is 'the most insane stupid thing EVER!!' and that my making him do it is 'absolute proof that I don't care about him and never help him!' (that's an almost perfect quote from just a week ago actually).  This personal experience with the limits of maturity and knowledge makes it easier for me to not put so much stock into my own understanding of things that clearly require way more information than i have access to.

This does not mean i don't throw plenty of my own tantrums with God, that i'm above questioning or doubting Him or that i have no questions i want answers for.  But i'm slow to use 'this makes sense to me' as the litmus test for understanding God.

Your strategy seems to be to outsource the answer to the next life, assuming that answers will be forthcoming there, yes? Avoidance seems to be the only answer that doesn't require a paradigm change. 

It's really not about tantrums, though. There is plenty of horrific, pointless suffering to go around. Not every calamity makes us stronger. 

[Bobbieaware]

41 minutes ago, Gray said:

I wasn't there, but I suspect these are "just" stories. In most cases these stories were written down long after the fact, by people who weren't there. 

Of course, the real value of scripture is in the meaning we can take from these stories. There is no content in a story about a miracle if all you get from it was that a miracle happened to someone long ago. 

 

I'm wondering how a Church member who doesn't believe God is a God of miracles could read the following excerpt from the Book of Mormom without feeling put upon and irritated?

And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.

 16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

 17 Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his wordthe heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought?

 18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

 19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

 20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust. (Mormon 9)

It would be interesting to have it explained how one who doesn't believe God is a God of miracles integrates the above words of Mormom into his religious philosophy.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

It's the only answer that doesn't turn God into the monster that Jeremy describes.

Except that it's not.  Just because it's the only answer you can see doesn't mean it's the only one.  Our vision is often limited by our imperfect understanding.  And imperfect understanding is all we have right now so we will always be limited in some way.

Quote

The God who helps privileged people find their lost belongings but lets babies suffer on and on in horrible agony until they die.

I have a close friend (one of the 'privileged people' as you call them) who had a baby who suffered, and ultimately died, because of the mistakes of someone else.  He was a very much beloved and longed for son.  

Quote

It's a terrible problem, and there is no satisfactory answer for those who think of God as a being who intervenes.

No offense, but i find your answer to be much less satisfactory than mine.  

Quote

This is an issue that creates thousands of atheists each year - they're reacting to the logical problems that result when positing a very specific idea about God. And while I reject the same sort of God that atheists reject, it makes me sad to see them rejecting spirituality as a whole. There is so much more to it than just the binary issue of God as literal celestial parent vs no God at all. 

I doubt it.  This issue (of evil and suffering) has existed since the dawn of time.  If this was the issue that created atheists then atheists would have been the majority for most of history.  But we know that theists in some form or another have always dominated the landscape of this earth.  

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

I'm wondering how a Church member who doesn't believe God is a God of miracles could read the following excerpt from the Book of Mormom without feeling put upon and irritated?

And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do no miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.

 16 Behold, are not the things that God hath wrought marvelous in our eyes? Yea, and who can comprehend the marvelous works of God?

 17 Who shall say that it was not a miracle that by his wordthe heaven and the earth should be; and by the power of his word man was created of the dust of the earth; and by the power of his word have miracles been wrought?

 18 And who shall say that Jesus Christ did not do many mighty miracles? And there were many mighty miracles wrought by the hands of the apostles.

 19 And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.

 20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief, and depart from the right way, and know not the God in whom they should trust. (Mormon 9)

It would be interesting to have it explained how one who doesn't believe God is a of miracles integrates the above words of Mormom into his religious philosophy.

It's an interesting question. We hear a lot today in the church about not expecting dramatic miracles, but to look for God's hand in small, every day events. That's what I hear, anyway. The type of miracles we talk about today and the type of miracles talked about in the early church are totally different. 

There have always been ghost stories - but that doesn't mean there were ever such things as ghosts. We are a species that revels in stories of the fantastic. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Calm]

I don't believe God is outsourcing answers, I believe he is talking to us, explaining things. Loving and supporting us.  But just as a childmay not understand a parent's explanation or loving behaviour, neither do we.

We have to go through childhood to mature and understand how to be adults in our physical natures.  Why would it be different for our spiritual ones?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

Your strategy seems to be to outsource the answer to the next life, assuming that answers will be forthcoming there, yes? Avoidance seems to be the only answer that doesn't require a paradigm change. 

It's really not about tantrums, though. There is plenty of horrific, pointless suffering to go around. Not every calamity makes us stronger. 

My strategy is to believe the prophets and apostles, to trust my own experiences with God's personal intervention in my every day life, to believe the scriptures that teach that He both loves us and is our literal Father, and to try to have faith.

It's the basic strategy of believing Christians throughout the world, regardless of denomination.

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Except that it's not.  Just because it's the only answer you can see doesn't mean it's the only one.  Our vision is often limited by our imperfect understanding.  And imperfect understanding is all we have right now so we will always be limited in some way.

I have a close friend (one of the 'privileged people' as you call them) who had a baby who suffered, and ultimately died, because of the mistakes of someone else.  He was a very much beloved and longed for son.  

No offense, but i find your answer to be much less satisfactory than mine.  

I doubt it.  This issue (of evil and suffering) has existed since the dawn of time.  If this was the issue that created atheists then atheists would have been the majority for most of history.  But we know that theists in some form or another have always dominated the landscape of this earth.  

But that's the thing - there is no answer to the problem of evil except to conclude that God does not intervene. You can either do that, or avoid the issue, hoping for an answer to come beyond the grave.  

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Gray]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't believe God is outsourcing answers, I believe he is talking to us, explaining things. Loving and supporting us.  But just as a childmay not understand a parent's explanation or loving behaviour, neither do we.

We have to go through childhood to mature and understand how to be adults in our physical natures.  Why would it be different for our spiritual ones?

This is avoiding the issue, isn't it? Someday, beyond the grave, we'll understand. 

 

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My strategy is to believe the prophets and apostles, to trust my own experiences with God's personal intervention in my every day life, to believe the scriptures that teach that He both loves us and is our literal Father, and to try to have faith.

It's the basic strategy of believing Christians throughout the world, regardless of denomination.

They don't have an answer either, though. "Have faith" means "we don't have the answer, but we hope to have one someday." 

There is one obvious answer to the problem of evil, but it requires a paradigm change. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

But that's the thing - there is no answer to the problem of evil except to conclude that God does not intervene. You can either do that, or avoid the issue, hoping for an answer to come beyond the grave.  

Again, that's not the only answer.  It's the only answer you find acceptable but that doesn't mean others haven't been shared.  Given my personal experiences, it would be completely illogical for me to believe that was the answer.  It's contradictory to the evidence in my own life.

But worse, your answer doesn't actually solve the problem of evil, it just removes God (the only one who can ultimately provide meaning and comfort in trials) from those who need Him most.  You, someone who believes the doctrines of the gospel, can't distant God from His children and then claim it makes the world better and more logical.   

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Again, that's not the only answer.  It's the only answer you find acceptable but that doesn't mean others haven't been shared.  Given my personal experiences, it would be completely illogical for me to believe that was the answer.  It's contradictory to the evidence in my own life.

But worse, your answer doesn't actually solve the problem of evil, it just removes God (the only one who can ultimately provide meaning and comfort in trials) from those who need Him most.  You, someone who believes the doctrines of the gospel, can't distant God from His children and then claim it makes the world better and more logical.   

The problem of evil is unsolvable unless you change your assumptions about what God is. You don't have an answer - you believe, based on your experiences, that God has intervened in your own life. But you can't account for the problem of evil. You're just restating the issue without giving the solution. That's not your fault - the problem of evil is a very old question. No one has been able to reconcile it with traditional notions about God (notions of God as a divine parent who intervenes in human affairs). 

The answer is to move beyond underdeveloped notions about what we thought God was, and move toward something more useful, more developed, more mature. 

 

Quote

In some ways, we might wish such a system of clear rewards and punishments operated in our world, but that would render us always children, never growing to take responsibility for our own life choices. The process of evolution would be eclipsed by the need to adhere to unchanging rules and regulations.

 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

They don't have an answer either, though. "Have faith" means "we don't have the answer, but we hope to have one someday." 

There is one obvious answer to the problem of evil, but it requires a paradigm change. 

You are right in that faith is not a perfect knowledge-faith does not remove the 'i don't knows' of life.  But you are wrong in your belief of what faith means.  

Faith is a personal relationship with God.  It is a cord that binds us close to our Father in Heaven and our Savior.  Faith means knowing the answer is just, knowing the answer is merciful, knowing the answer exists and that it stems from love, without knowing the answer.  Faith is trusting God more.  

It is the opposite of the answer you have put forth, which is to trust Him less and believe Him to be far away and uninvolved with His children in order to make this world make sense.

[Gray]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

You are right in that faith is not a perfect knowledge-faith does not remove the 'i don't knows' of life.  But you are wrong in your belief of what faith means.  

Faith is a personal relationship with God.  It is a cord that binds us close to our Father in Heaven and our Savior.  Faith means knowing the answer is just, knowing the answer is merciful, knowing the answer exists and that it stems from love, without knowing the answer.  Faith is trusting God more.  

It is the opposite of the answer you have put forth, which is to trust Him less and believe Him to be far away and uninvolved with His children in order to make this world make sense.

Well, I understand all of what you say about faith with all its nuances, but at the end of the day, it's still outsourcing the answer to the afterlife, because you trust with great confidence that it will come later.

Personally I don't believe God is far away. I just don't think God is a person. God is, rather, the only thing that exists. I don't have reduced love for God - I think my love for God has increased. But I also don't expect God to help me find my lost keys or cell phone. Interestingly, my success rate in finding these items has not changed since I changed that assumption. 

I also don't expect God to keep me safe or bless me with health. I understand that there is risk in life - there are no bargains to be made that will change that. I'm healthy today. I could get cancer tomorrow. No divine parent will intervene - but it's not appropriate to expect that. That's not what life is about. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Gray said:

But that's the thing - there is no answer to the problem of evil except to conclude that God does not intervene. You can either do that, or avoid the issue, hoping for an answer to come beyond the grave.  

Does not intervene in ways we can be certain of or aware in many cases (because it is someone else's internal experience).  I can believe and do that he is there intervening in our lives constantly (whether or not we know we are calling to him), which is what I saw Elder Holland speaking to when he said the first or highest truth was that God loves us.

So there are other options besides assuming no intervention or avoiding the issue.

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Gray said:

This is avoiding the issue, isn't it? Someday, beyond the grave, we'll understand. 

 

so is a child avoiding the issue when he doesn't understand why he needs a shot, but trusts his parent that it is good for him?

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Gray said:

The problem of evil is unsolvable unless you change your assumptions about what God is. You don't have an answer - you believe, based on your experiences, that God has intervened in your own life. But you can't account for the problem of evil. You're just restating the issue without giving the solution. That's not your fault - the problem of evil is a very old question. No one has been able to reconcile it with traditional notions about God (notions of God as a divine parent who intervenes in human affairs). 

The answer is to move beyond underdeveloped notions about what we thought God was, and move toward something more useful, more developed, more mature. 

 

 

Your only answer is to remove God from this world (in some weird atheist/christian hybrid of belief).  Just as my answer is no answer from your perspective, your answer is no answer from mine.

A false notion of God, no matter how logical, will never be more useful, developed, or mature.

Edited April 4, 2016 by bluebell

[Gray]

Just now, Calm said:

Does not intervene in ways we can be certain of or aware in many cases (because it is someone else's internal experience).  I can believe and do that he is there intervening in our lives constantly (whether or not we know we are calling to him), which is what I saw Elder Holland speaking to when he said the first or highest truth was that God loves us.

So there are other options besides assuming no intervention or avoiding the issue.

The problem lies in where God might choose to intervene, and choose not to intervene. There are babies born without skin. If God could intervene on that area, he surely would, or else he would not be a good God. A God who helps you find pocket change for the bus but doesn't intervene in weightier matters is not a good God. 

There is a lot of pointless suffering in the world that can't be addressed to appeals to the importance of free agency or personal growth through trials. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Gray said:

Well, I understand all of what you say about faith with all its nuances, but at the end of the day, it's still outsourcing the answer to the afterlife, because you trust with great confidence that it will come later.

 

It's outsourcing the answer to God, rather than trusting in my own understanding.

[Calm]

One can understand in this life sufficiently, just as a child can understand many things, even if it isn't an adult understanding.

Do you need to know how the car works in every detail in order to use it to get to work? We don't even know how our bodies function enough to know why things go wrong or how to fix them yet or how electrical impulses and biochemical processes translate to consciousness and yet you seem to think we should know the equivalent level of spiritual knowledge.

Why do you think our spiritual experience should be so fundamentally different from our physical experience?

[Gray]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

so is a child avoiding the issue when he doesn't understand why he needs a shot, but trusts his parent that it is good for him?

Yes, definitely. Of course the difference between that and the subject at hand is there is no reason to think we are intellectually incapable of understanding the answer right now, just as we are. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Gray

[Bobbieaware]

55 minutes ago, Gray said:

It's an interesting question. We hear a lot today in the church about not expecting dramatic miracles, but to look for God's hand in small, every day events. That's what I hear, anyway. The type of miracles we talk about today and the type of miracles talked about in the early church are totally different. 

There have always been ghost stories - but that doesn't mean there were ever such things as ghosts. We are a species that revels in stories of the fantastic. 

I believe the reason why I have seen and experienced mighty miracles in my life is because -- in accord with Mormon's admonition -- I know one of the necessary prerequisites for the working of mighty miracles is to have living faith in Christ as a God of miracles. I wonder if one of the reasons why some members don't believe in a God of miracles is because they don't want to believe it.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's outsourcing the answer to God, rather than trusting in my own understanding.

Yes, understanding that God has not answered this question yet, but you hope that He will someday. 

[Gray]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

One can understand in this life sufficiently, just as a child can understand many things, even if it isn't an adult understanding.

Do you need to know how the car works in every detail in order to use it to get to work? We don't even know how our bodies function enough to know why things go wrong or how to fix them yet or how electrical impulses and biochemical processes translate to consciousness and yet you seem to think we should know the equivalent level of spiritual knowledge.

Why do you think our spiritual experience should be so fundamentally different from our physical experience?

Well, it's a fairly simple question at heart. It's a question of morality, and reason. I see no reason to think we couldn't understand the answer, if one existed. Not all of us are experts at everything, but as a species we've been able to comprehend very complex issues. What's so complex about this issue that we couldn't understand the answer if it was given to us?

One problem of course is there is no reliable way to verify that God has ever intervened in any event. It's entirely subjective. But the kinds of intervention events that members of the church tend to give God credit for are very problematic. 

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

17 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, understanding that God has not answered this question yet, but you hope that He will someday. 

 

I know He will someday, yes.  Exactly.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

Yes, definitely. Of course the difference between that and the subject at hand is there is no reason to think we are intellectually incapable of understanding the answer right now, just as we are. 

You have a different defintion of avoiding the issue than I have.  Avoidance to me is an active behaviour, not something that just happens to you because of limitations (as in someone who has done what is possible on their end to find a companion, but has no one stepping up to take the role is not avoiding marriage).  Not understanding something in complete detail does not mean to me someone is avoiding understanding.