"wish I Didn't Know Now"

[Coreyb]

     Sometimes I think about my study of the church and its history, and I cant help but be reminded of these lyrics from an old Toby Keith song...

 

 

I never ask you where your goin',
I never ask you where you've been 
I've never called and checked your story...

..I've never tried to catch you lyin',
I didn't want to know the truth...

..I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then 
I wish I could start this whole thing over again
I'm not sayin' it's you...

..Yeah, I wish somehow I didnt know now what I didn't know then 

 

     Now, my feelings and conclusions about the church don't line up with the entire message of the song. I love the church, and believe in it strongly, yet I cant help feeling like my life and faith would be so much simpler had I never learned and studied the history that I have. I have friends and family who go on seemingly blissful in the faith without knowing any of the trying parts that make you reexamine what you really believe about God and his work. I sometimes wish I could just be like that; believe the Bible is nearly perfect with a few errors that Joseph Smith fixed, believe that the Book of Mormon is obviously historically true and if anybody would seriously read it they would join the church, believe that Joseph Smith was practically perfect with only a few small flaws, believe that the prophet is never wrong and probably has an interview with Jesus every week to get the marching orders.

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Coreyb

[thesometimesaint]

     Sometimes I think about my study of the church and its history, and I cant help but be reminded of these lyrics from an old Toby Keith song...

 

 

I never ask you where your goin',

I never ask you where you've been 

I've never called and checked your story...

..I've never tried to catch you lyin',

I didn't want to know the truth...

..I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then 

I wish I could start this whole thing over again

I'm not sayin' it's you...

..Yeah, I wish somehow I didnt know now what I didn't know then 

 

     Now, my feelings and conclusions about the church don't line up with the entire message of the song. I love the church, and believe in it strongly, yet I cant help feeling like my life and faith would be so much simpler had I never learned and studied the history that I have. I have friends and family who go on seemingly blissful in the faith without knowing any of the trying parts that make you reexamine what you really believe about God and his work. I sometimes wish I could just be like that; believe the Bible is nearly perfect with a few errors that Joseph Smith fixed, believe that the Book of Mormon is obviously historically true and if anybody would seriously read it they would join the church, believe that Joseph Smith was practically perfect with only a few small flaws, believe that the prophet is never wrong and probably has an interview with Jesus every week to get the marching orders.

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

 

Welcome to the path to Godhood. Knowing everything good,. bad, indifferent, and loving your children enough to want them to be just like you.

[Alvino]

     Now, my feelings and conclusions about the church don't line up with the entire message of the song. I love the church, and believe in it strongly, yet I cant help feeling like my life and faith would be so much simpler had I never learned and studied the history that I have. I have friends and family who go on seemingly blissful in the faith without knowing any of the trying parts that make you reexamine what you really believe about God and his work. I sometimes wish I could just be like that; believe the Bible is nearly perfect with a few errors that Joseph Smith fixed, believe that the Book of Mormon is obviously historically true and if anybody would seriously read it they would join the church, believe that Joseph Smith was practically perfect with only a few small flaws, believe that the prophet is never wrong and probably has an interview with Jesus every week to get the marching orders.

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

 

That's a cool post.

 

Honestly, the happiness that people who didn't know or cared for the issues you mentioned in your OP always seemed to me to be too ugly to be wanted, and I enjoyed discussions about these topics too much to imagine a joyful LDS experience without engaging these problems to a considerable extent. If anything, these people's fulfillment with respect to the Church was more of a joykill when I noticed it in the midst of having a nice Sunday experience.

 

Full disclosure, I'm an atheist now but I've tried to respond here with the mind I had after I went through a faith-crisis and held on to the Church.

[KarlaMaria]

     Sometimes I think about my study of the church and its history, and I cant help but be reminded of these lyrics from an old Toby Keith song...

 

 

I never ask you where your goin',

I never ask you where you've been 

I've never called and checked your story...

..I've never tried to catch you lyin',

I didn't want to know the truth...

..I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then 

I wish I could start this whole thing over again

I'm not sayin' it's you...

..Yeah, I wish somehow I didnt know now what I didn't know then 

 

     Now, my feelings and conclusions about the church don't line up with the entire message of the song. I love the church, and believe in it strongly, yet I cant help feeling like my life and faith would be so much simpler had I never learned and studied the history that I have. I have friends and family who go on seemingly blissful in the faith without knowing any of the trying parts that make you reexamine what you really believe about God and his work. I sometimes wish I could just be like that; believe the Bible is nearly perfect with a few errors that Joseph Smith fixed, believe that the Book of Mormon is obviously historically true and if anybody would seriously read it they would join the church, believe that Joseph Smith was practically perfect with only a few small flaws, believe that the prophet is never wrong and probably has an interview with Jesus every week to get the marching orders.

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

Everything happens for a reason.  These thoughts have come to you for a reason.  Don't brush them aside.  Work through them.  Examine them.  This is how all truth is known, through careful thought of your experience/study.  Feelings are subjective and unreliable (which is why they are not admissible in a court of law).   Set your feelings aside while you examine your doubts.  Weigh the arguments for each doubt.  Even if you cannot reconcile every doubt to your satisfaction, at least you've looked at them.  You don't have to change anything right away.  You can go back to how you feel about the church at anytime and set the doubts aside again.  When you are ready, re-examine the doubts again and weigh the sides.  Eventually, you'll gain more knowledge of the issue you are doubting and a better understanding on if/how you will reconcile your feelings with it.  

[Kenngo1969]

Everything happens for a reason.  These thoughts have come to you for a reason.  Don't brush them aside.  Work through them.  Examine them.  This is how all truth is known, through careful thought of your experience/study.  Feelings are subjective and unreliable (which is why they are not admissible in a court of law). [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]   Set your feelings aside while you examine your doubts.  Weigh the arguments for each doubt.  Even if you cannot reconcile every doubt to your satisfaction, at least you've looked at them.  You don't have to change anything right away.  You can go back to how you feel about the church at anytime and set the doubts aside again.  When you are ready, re-examine the doubts again and weigh the sides.  Eventually, you'll gain more knowledge of the issue you are doubting and a better understanding on if/how you will reconcile your feelings with it.  

Full disclosure: I am not a lawyer, and this post is not legal advice.  If you need such advice, call one.  Now, with that out of the way ...

 

They aren't?

 

Huh.  Well, I guess that means we can "set aside" (your term) several legal concepts, including (but not necessarily limited to):

 

Intentional infliction of emotional distress;

Negligent infliction of emotional distress;

Stalking; and

Assault.

 

All of these things are crimes (or torts) based, at least in part (or at least potentially) on the victim's or plaintiff's emotional reaction to them. If the victim's (or plaintiff's) feelings were totally inadmissible, then none of these crimes (or causes of action) would be provable (whether by a preponderance of the evidence or beyond a reasonable doubt) in a court of law.  Granted, the victim's (or plaintiff's) reaction to them is only part of the inquiry, and the other part of the inquiry is whether a reasonable victim or plaintiff would react the same way in similar circumstances, but that doesn't change the other part of the inquiry.

 

And I think the Alma 32 test (the fact that it invites one to consider his feelings) is viable, nonetheless: "It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good; for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding; yea, it beginneth to be delicious unto me" (going from memory, but I'm sure that's reasonably accurate).  And I invite you to take Elder Holland's counsel to not privilege doubt over faith.  Questions are inevitable; doubt is optional.  Don't privilege your doubt or your questions to such a degree that you become willing to sell your "spiritual birthright" for a "mess of pottage."

Edited April 4, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Storm Rider]

Put aside feelings - i.e. ignore the Holy Spirit.  How many times have we been warned about the evil of this type of advice or pseudo-logic? The very elect will be deceived; how? By following false Christs and false prophets.

 

I read a Encyclical by John Paul II entitled, "Fides et Ratio"  or Faith and Reason.  He did an excellent job of discussing the interplay and role of these two eternal companions.  God does not exist without reason and reason does not exist without faith.  Knowing when to hold on to faith is a gift of the Spirit.

 

It is evident that scripture and prophets teach us to pursue a life of faith and once having found faith we must defend it and nourish it. I agree with you that things were simpler then; we were more child-like in our faith, but we were untried.  

 

I have concluded many things about leaders that I never contemplated earlier in my life. To be given the keys of to be a prophet, seer, and revelator does not mean that each leader actually is a prophet, seer, and revelator. We have not had a functioning seer since the time of Joseph. It is my opinion that we have had very few prophets and revelators also.  We have had men that were called of God and they have presided and led the Church to the best of their ability, but their actions direct me to my conclusions.  

 

The world is not seen in black and white; I see far more grey than when I was younger.  I see truth in a broad range of expressions everywhere. However, I also see that many are easily led away; they have abandoned the Spirit and they seek after their own understanding.  We have itching ears and we seek after those who will pander to our desires.  We are often too eager to sell the atonement of Jesus Christ for feeding our passions without any discipline or in a godly way.  

 

I do believe the Savior when he tells me to come unto him; that his yoke is easy and burden light. What I strive to learn is to be submissive to him in all things. If I submit than he is willing to share in my burdens and I find rest in him.  Every time I have problems is when I walk away from him and lean completely on my own understanding.  I seem always in need of learning the wages of pride is death. 

 

Corey, you are not alone and never have been. 

[canard78]

Everything happens for a reason.

Everything? For a reason? I suppose so. People die in natural disasters. The reason? Because a meteorological phenomenon caused a typhoon.

So yes, there is cause and effect in every event. Basic logic.

Now... If you are instead saying that everything happens for God's reasons then I'd see it otherwise. Did God cause the Philippines typhoon last year? The tsunami of 26th Dec? Did God cause (or allow) the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings? What was the reason for those events?

I find the statement "everything happens for a reason" (with the implication that a divine hand is being "everything" deeply unsatisfying).

[Stroopwafel]

Everything? For a reason? I suppose so. People die in natural disasters. The reason? Because a meteorological phenomenon caused a typhoon.

So yes, there is cause and effect in every event. Basic logic.

Now... If you are instead saying that everything happens for God's reasons then I'd see it otherwise. Did God cause the Philippines typhoon last year? The tsunami of 26th Dec? Did God cause (or allow) the 9/11 and 7/7 bombings? What was the reason for those events?

I find the statement "everything happens for a reason" (with the implication that a divine hand is being "everything" deeply unsatisfying).

 

Don't you know canard? Once we know everything in the end--because we will in the millenium--it will all make sense. While we do seek answers to such profound existential questions, this time on earth isn't the place to get them, apparently...

[mfbukowski]

It all started with Santa Claus.

 

Who knows where it will end.  Just don't study philosophy. That will really mess with your mind.  

[Kevin Christensen]

See the Perry Scheme of Cognitive and Ethical Growth:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/Perry%20Scheme.pdf

I like the way Veda binds it to a metaphor of tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and of leaving the garden for the world of experience and in which there is an opposition in all things.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[mfbukowski]

See the Perry Scheme of Cognitive and Ethical Growth:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/Perry%20Scheme.pdf

I like the way Veda binds it to a metaphor of tasting the fruit of the tree of knowledge, and of leaving the garden for the world of experience and in which there is an opposition in all things.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

Yes.

 

When I joined the church I noticed that and wondered how Joseph could have found all this world wisdom and put it into one place without divine guidance, and decided it was impossible.

[BlueDreams]

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

 

Haven't had any major faith crisis, but no. I don't wish that I can change what I knew now for a more simple faith. I like having a multifaceted faith. Some part of my faith are pragmatic. God asks me to do something, I should listen to the One who cares the most about me. Other parts have steadied my faith. I'm not easily rocked by decisions that I find wrong or a hindrance. I now understand that fallibility is just apart of humanity and no one is free to escape it. I have faith in the scriptures as tools to enhance my life and understanding of the Gospel. Their own messiness teaches me that God's voice is not easily squelched by imperfect means of communication. 

 

I can appreciate "simpler" faith like the example's you've mentioned. I think they find what's most important to them and they work within that....the rest doesn't matter as much. My own path of faith has led me around and back again, understanding what is most primary to my beliefs and allowing whatever else to enhance, push, and further develop my own faith in God and understanding of His work on the earth

 

With luv,

BD

[juliann]

I think the unsettling part of losing the "simple faith" (for lack of a better word) is the realization that it is now my burden to keep faith alive. Sort of like having to leave a childhood home and support yourself.  But there is such a feeling of freedom after the readjustment, what I have is mine now and it is between God and me with the church as a help, guide, and refuge.

[canard78]

Don't you know canard? Once we know everything in the end--because we will in the millenium--it will all make sense. While we do seek answers to such profound existential questions, this time on earth isn't the place to get them, apparently...

Apparently indeed. No... I actually don't know. I speculate and have beliefs. But I know very little.

[Ahab]

The Church is the totality of the people in it, and all I needed to know when I didn't know about it (the collective body) is that there are some people in it who could and can give me something that I couldn't get from any other people, or at least not on this planet, in mortality. I didn't and still don't need anyone to be without any flaw or quirk I would rather them be without, as if they should measure up to my own personal idea or standard of perfection. The Church is not the God I worship, and he isn't even a member.

[cinepro]

It all started with Santa Claus.

 

Who knows where it will end.  Just don't study philosophy. That will really mess with your mind.  

 

Those dang philosophers!*

 

 

 

 

*Granted, it's brilliant irony to have Kevin Sorbo advocating that "God is Dead".  Well played, Christian movie.  Well played.

Edited April 4, 2014 by cinepro

[ERayR]

That's a cool post.

 

Honestly, the happiness that people who didn't know or cared for the issues you mentioned in your OP always seemed to me to be too ugly to be wanted, and I enjoyed discussions about these topics too much to imagine a joyful LDS experience without engaging these problems to a considerable extent. If anything, these people's fulfillment with respect to the Church was more of a joykill when I noticed it in the midst of having a nice Sunday experience.

 

Full disclosure, I'm an atheist now but I've tried to respond here with the mind I had after I went through a faith-crisis and held on to the Church.

 

I am reminded of a Star Wars line delivered by Obi Wan.  "It is the truth from a certain point of view".  Be careful whose point of view you choose to look at it from.

[MiserereNobis]

Those dang philosophers!*

 

 

 

 

*Granted, it's brilliant irony to have Kevin Sorbo advocating that "God is Dead".  Well played, Christian movie.  Well played.

 

Even better:

 

 

Mark, this is how we should solve our philosophical issues here: the Greeks vs. the Germans!  (especially since the Greeks win, despite the German's philosophical protests.  Did you notice how Wittgenstein gets replaced by Marx?  Tee-hee!)

Edited April 4, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[Stroopwafel]

Even better:

 

 

Mark, this is how we should solve our philosophical issues here: the Greeks vs. the Germans!  (especially since the Greeks win, despite the German's philosophical protests.  Did you notice how Wittgenstein gets replaced by Marx?  Tee-hee!)

 

Seriously, that's hilarious!

[katherine the great]

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

You were reading archaeology books when you were nine and ten?  I still have archy textbooks I never quite made it through because they were so boring...  (and I'm an archaeologist!)  I understand what you are saying about wishing you could go back.  There is a lot of metaphor in the story of Adam and Eve.  They ate the fruit of knowledge and were expelled from paradise.  Their new life was hard, but they learned and grew as people and had a type of joy they could not have had if they had stayed innocent.  They could never go back.

[stemelbow]

     Sometimes I think about my study of the church and its history, and I cant help but be reminded of these lyrics from an old Toby Keith song...

 

 

I never ask you where your goin',

I never ask you where you've been 

I've never called and checked your story...

..I've never tried to catch you lyin',

I didn't want to know the truth...

..I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then 

I wish I could start this whole thing over again

I'm not sayin' it's you...

..Yeah, I wish somehow I didnt know now what I didn't know then 

 

     Now, my feelings and conclusions about the church don't line up with the entire message of the song. I love the church, and believe in it strongly, yet I cant help feeling like my life and faith would be so much simpler had I never learned and studied the history that I have. I have friends and family who go on seemingly blissful in the faith without knowing any of the trying parts that make you reexamine what you really believe about God and his work. I sometimes wish I could just be like that; believe the Bible is nearly perfect with a few errors that Joseph Smith fixed, believe that the Book of Mormon is obviously historically true and if anybody would seriously read it they would join the church, believe that Joseph Smith was practically perfect with only a few small flaws, believe that the prophet is never wrong and probably has an interview with Jesus every week to get the marching orders.

 

     The funny part is I was really never like that. I was having a faith crisis at nine and ten years old because the Book of Mormon didn't line up with my history and archaeology books. I have always know hard things about the Church, and for a long time I believed it was false. Good, but false. I guess I yearn for something that I never had, that others seem to. Do any of you Mormons ever feel that way? Particularly those who have had major faith crises later on as an adult and have come through them?

 

Thanks for the post.  Awesome thread.  Wonderful posts have come.

 

I think we need to stop expressing fear of learning.  I still hear it.  I'm not all that learned.  I'm not all that intelligent.  But I get told from time to time that I am bad because I learn, want to learn...read things to be able to understand things.  I'm told as I learn I will lose faith.  Its all completely backwards.  While I feel like I've followed a path much like you have laid out, I also feel grateful for it.  I wouldn't change it, as they say.  My pain is my pain, but it's shared with the divine.  Heavenly Father knows all and yet its also said that He weeps and feels pain.  I'm on board with having pain for eternity.  I guess I have to accept that, whether that pain is much like Heavenly Father's--His is due to His love for others.  Or if I feel pain for not residing eternally in the higher levels of glory.  Faith remains a challenge for me.  Black and white my eyeballs anymore.  But let it all evolve in me.  Let the difficulties grow me.  It's scriptural.

 

I accept it--won't want to change that now.

[Coreyb]

You were reading archaeology books when you were nine and ten?  I still have archy textbooks I never quite made it through because they were so boring...  (and I'm an archaeologist!)  I understand what you are saying about wishing you could go back.  There is a lot of metaphor in the story of Adam and Eve.  They ate the fruit of knowledge and were expelled from paradise.  Their new life was hard, but they learned and grew as people and had a type of joy they could not have had if they had stayed innocent.  They could never go back.

Yes, I was much more intelligent at that age than I am now. They were just the high school level stuff.

[mfbukowski]

Those dang philosophers!*

 

 

 

 

*Granted, it's brilliant irony to have Kevin Sorbo advocating that "God is Dead".  Well played, Christian movie.  Well played.

Yeah that is just so patently absurd - that trailer was totally laughable.

They just should have put horns on their heads and thrown in a good old "BBBWWWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!"

Maybe a red light from underneath their faces- that would have improved it considerably.