Another One Bites the Dust

[Jeanne]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It doesn't work for everyone, because not everyone is willing to do as the scriptural analogy directs. That is a no-brainer.

Well..not all of us are so special.

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, ERayR said:

No but I will say people can and do decide what the want to and do believe.  There is always ample evidence to find and accept alternative explanations to the information causing their issues.

I tried that!!  With Stake President/counselors and study.  Then after I leave the church..here comes the essays.  C'mon Scott,  After 40 years in the church, one thinks they may know alot about it.

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

 

If you go back and check the source of your Mark Twain quote (the novel "Huckleberry Finn,") you see that the hero, Huck, was praying that he would be a good boy when, deep down inside, he knew that's not what he really wanted, because he was having too much fun being the ornery creature he had been up to that time. Hence the quote, "You can't pray a lie; I found that out."

So you see, it brings us right back to where we started: It's a matter of choice.

Ergo, as the scripture in Alma 32 says, you have to at least desire to believe. But for those who, for whatever reason, can't so much as muster a desire, then what you say is quite true: It doesn't work.

That's not accurate. The passage occurs when Huck is trying to decide whether or not to turn in the runaway slave Jim. He knows a "good boy" should turn him in, but he can't go through with it. That's why it's such powerful passage, because it is so terribly ironic that his conscience is wrestling with the teachings he's received from organized religion.

Edited June 13, 2016 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

FWIW, here is the passage in context:
 

Quote

Once I said to myself it would be a thousand times better for Jim to be a slave at home where his family was, as long as he'd got to be a slave, and so I'd better write a letter to Tom Sawyer and tell him to tell Miss Watson where he was.  But I soon give up that notion for two things: she'd be mad and disgusted at his rascality and ungratefulness for leaving her, and so she'd sell him straight down the river again; and if she didn't, everybody naturally despises an ungrateful nigger, and they'd make Jim feel it all the time, and so he'd feel ornery and disgraced. And then think of me!  It would get all around that Huck Finn helped a nigger to get his freedom; and if I was ever to see anybody from that town again I'd be ready to get down and lick his boots for shame.  That's just the way:  a person does a low-down thing, and then he don't want to take no consequences of it. Thinks as long as he can hide it, it ain't no disgrace.  That was my fix exactly. The more I studied about this the more my conscience went to grinding me, and the more wicked and low-down and ornery I got to feeling. And at last, when it hit me all of a sudden that here was the plain hand of Providence slapping me in the face and letting me know my wickedness was being watched all the time from up there in heaven, whilst I was stealing a poor old woman's nigger that hadn't ever done me no harm, and now was showing me there's One that's always on the lookout, and ain't a-going to allow no such miserable doings to go only just so fur and no further, I most dropped in my tracks I was so scared.  Well, I tried the best I could to kinder soften it up somehow for myself by saying I was brung up wicked, and so I warn't so much to blame; but something inside of me kept saying, "There was the Sunday-school, you could a gone to it; and if you'd a done it they'd a learnt you there that people that acts as I'd been acting about that nigger goes to everlasting fire."

It made me shiver.  And I about made up my mind to pray, and see if I couldn't try to quit being the kind of a boy I was and be better.  So I kneeled down.  But the words wouldn't come.  Why wouldn't they?  It warn't no use to try and hide it from Him.  Nor fromme, neither.  I knowed very well why they wouldn't come.  It was because my heart warn't right; it was because I warn't square; it was because I was playing double.  I was letting on to give up sin, but away inside of me I was holding on to the biggest one of all.  I was trying to make my mouth say I would do the right thing and the clean thing, and go and write to that nigger's owner and tell where he was; but deep down in me I knowed it was a lie, and He knowed it.  You can't pray a lie—I found that out.

So I was full of trouble, full as I could be; and didn't know what to do. At last I had an idea; and I says, I'll go and write the letter—and then see if I can pray.  Why, it was astonishing, the way I felt as light as a feather right straight off, and my troubles all gone.  So I got a piece of paper and a pencil, all glad and excited, and set down and wrote:

Miss Watson, your runaway nigger Jim is down here two mile below Pikesville, and Mr. Phelps has got him and he will give him up for the reward if you send.

Huck Finn.

I felt good and all washed clean of sin for the first time I had ever felt so in my life, and I knowed I could pray now.  But I didn't do it straight off, but laid the paper down and set there thinking—thinking how good it was all this happened so, and how near I come to being lost and going to hell.  And went on thinking.  And got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me all the time:  in the day and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a-floating along, talking and singing and laughing.  But somehow I couldn't seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind.  I'd see him standing my watch on top of his'n, 'stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him again in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and such-like times; and would always call me honey, and pet me and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had small-pox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he's got now; and then I happened to look around and see that paper.

It was a close place.  I took it up, and held it in my hand.  I was a-trembling, because I'd got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it.  I studied a minute, sort of holding my breath, and then says to myself:

"All right, then, I'll go to hell"—and tore it up.

It was awful thoughts and awful words, but they was said.  And I let them stay said; and never thought no more about reforming.  I shoved the whole thing out of my head, and said I would take up wickedness again, which was in my line, being brung up to it, and the other warn't.  And for a starter I would go to work and steal Jim out of slavery again; and if I could think up anything worse, I would do that, too; because as long as I was in, and in for good, I might as well go the whole hog.

Edited June 13, 2016 by jkwilliams

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It also doesn't work for everyone who is willing to do as the scriptural analogy directs. That is a no-brainier, unless we presume to judge everyone who was ever exposed to the word. 

You've already said that merely "being exposed to the word" is not enough. I quite agree with that. It is essential to nurture the seed and "not cast it out with your unbelief." That's where the choice comes in.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

You've already said that merely "being exposed to the word" is not enough. I quite agree with that. It is essential to nurture the seed and "not cast it out with your unbelief." That's where the choice comes in.

But you're suggesting that, as long as the person does what the scripture says, there is only one possible outcome. How can anyone possibly say that? What if it isn't God's will that someone join the church? What if it isn't His will to give someone the answer they so earnestly desire?

I don't presume to understand how and why God does things. Seems pointless to do so, even if it seems a "no-brainer."

[SteveO]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

The lie is saying "I believe" when you clearly do not, not that the gospel is a lie.

You  must have, what, decades being an active member of the church?  In all that time, and hopefully I'm not assuming too much here, you must have had experiences that affirmed some kind of divine/higher power--that something else was at work?  If so, what do you do with them now that you are no longer a believing member?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, SteveO said:

You  must have, what, decades being an active member of the church?  In all that time, and hopefully I'm not assuming too much here, you must have had experiences that affirmed some kind of divine/higher power--that something else was at work?  If so, what do you do with them now that you are no longer a believing member?

As Scott said, it's best not to personalize things, so I won't.

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

That's not accurate. The passage occurs when Huck is trying to decide whether or not to turn in the runaway slave Jim. He knows a "good boy" should turn him in, but he can't go through with it. That's why it's such powerful passage, because it is so terribly ironic that his conscience is wrestling with the teachings he's received from organized religion.

We all know that in reality it was Huck who was pure-hearted and it was the slavery-embracing society that was in the wrong.

But in his innocence, Huck did not understand that. He thought that he was being wicked for wanting to protect Jim. And, he reasoned, if that was being wicked, he did not want to give up being wicked. So the point still stands that it was a matter of choice -- as it is with anyone. And that holds whether or not the gospel is true. You can't pray for a testimony and receive an answer if you really don't want the testimony.

Incidentally, here is the passage from Huckleberry Finn:

Quote

It made me shiver. And I about made up my mind to pray, and see if I couldn’t try to quit being the kind of a boy I was and be better. So I kneeled down. But the words wouldn’t come. Why wouldn’t they? It warn’t no use to try and hide it from Him. Nor from ME, neither. I knowed very well why they wouldn’t come. It was because my heart warn’t right; it was because I warn’t square; it was because I was playing double. I was letting ON to give up sin, but away inside of me I was holding on to the biggest one of all. I was trying to make my mouth SAY I would do the right thing and the clean thing, and go and write to that nigger’s owner and tell where he was; but deep down in me I knowed it was a lie, and He knowed it. You can’t pray a lie—I found that out.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We all know that in reality it was Huck who was pure-hearted and it was the slavery-embracing society that was in the wrong.

But in his innocence, Huck did not understand that. He thought that he was being wicked for wanting to protect Jim. And, he reasoned, if that was being wicked, he did not want to give up being wicked. So the point still stands that it was a matter of choice -- as it is with anyone.

Incidentally, here is the passage from Huckleberry Finn:

Yes, but it was his conscience that told him that turning in Jim would be wrong, no matter what anyone else told him. If the choice is between following conscience or anything else, what possible reason could someone give for not following their conscience? 

Edited June 13, 2016 by jkwilliams

[SteveO]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

As Scott said, it's best not to personalize things, so I won't.

He's preoccupied with Huck Finn at the moment...

Edited June 13, 2016 by SteveO

[Mystery Meat]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

But it's always your fault, right? You're the one who failed. At least that's how it's been for me.

The Church could have done a lot of things differently. But ultimately we are each responsible for our own actions. If the Church is true and what it claims to be (and I submit that it is), I doubt that anyone other than you or me will be held accountable for the relationship we have with the Kingdom of God. So I don't blame anyone for losing faith or leaving the Church, nor do I blame the Church for people losing faith or their testimony. Everyone must be ultimately accountable for themselves. IOW, I am not sure if using words like "fault" is the best approach in either regard, but I do think it is fair to say we will each be personally accountable and trying to blame the Church at the judgment bar won't hold up. I am not sure this is anything more than a slight distinction, without a difference.

Just my opinion, of course.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, SteveO said:

He's preoccupied with Huck Finn at the moment...

I think most people have to do a little recontextualizing of their spiritual experiences. Leaving the church does not require repudiating or denying spiritual experiences. Some people do, but not everyone.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The prophecy, as I understand it, is that some of the elect will be deceived. I don't recall a component of that prophecy being that they will be deceived because the church of God "needs fixing."

Well it could be that those deceived are in the Church itself and don't leave. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Mystery Meat said:

The Church could have done a lot of things differently. But ultimately we are each responsible for our own actions. If the Church is true and what it claims to be (and I submit that it is), I doubt that anyone other than you or me will be held accountable for the relationship we have with the Kingdom of God. So I don't blame anyone for losing faith or leaving the Church, nor do I blame the Church for people losing faith or their testimony. Everyone must be ultimately accountable for themselves. IOW, I am not sure if using words like "fault" is the best approach in either regard, but I do think it is fair to say we will each be personally accountable and trying to blame the Church at the judgment bar won't hold up. I am not sure this is anything more than a slight distinction, without a difference.

Just my opinion, of course.

I'm just saying that too many people are willing to pass judgment that someone who leaves the church must have done something wrong. How would they know? What if the church isn't actually true? What if, even if it is true, God has some other plan for certain people? 

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

FWIW, here is the passage in context:
 

Thanks.

I provided context too. I didn't quote as much as you did but it was quite enough for the moment. Whether or not Huck was actually being wicked is beside the point. In this instance, he thought he was, and he didn't want to give it up. Hence the memorable words "You can't pray a lie."

And, I repeat, you can't pray and receive a testimony if you really don't want one.

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks.

I provided context too. I didn't quote as much as you did but it was quite enough for the moment. Whether or not Huck was actually being wicked is beside the point. In this instance, he thought he was, and he didn't want to give it up. Hence the memorable words "You can't pray a lie."

And, I repeat, you can't pray and receive a testimony if you really don't want one.

My point is that you can't pretend to believe something is true or right when you really don't believe it is. Not everyone who really wants a testimony receives one. I would think that's a no-brainer.

[Scott Lloyd]

32 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I tried that!!  With Stake President/counselors and study.  Then after I leave the church..here comes the essays.  C'mon Scott,  After 40 years in the church, one thinks they may know alot about it.

You were responding to ERay. Did you think you were responding to me?

Edited to add: Since you use my name, and since you bring up the essays, I will reply that I have been in the Church for well over 40 years as well, and the essays didn't faze me.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Mystery Meat]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm just saying that too many people are willing to pass judgment that someone who leaves the church must have done something wrong. How would they know? What if the church isn't actually true? What if, even if it is true, God has some other plan for certain people? 

I understand that. I do not pretend to know the mind and will of God for all of His individual children. So I will not presume to judge your or other's like you.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

You were responding to ERay. Did you think you were responding to me?

"Whether by ERayR's own voice or by the voice of Scott, it is the same."

[Guest]

15 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

So today, for the seventh time in the last three years a member of my ward has announced they no longer believe.  This sister is a returned missionary and told me she doesn't believe  Joseph Smith was a prophet and especially has First Vision questions.  She said today will be her last day going to church.  She told quite a few people besides me and I really didn't get to have much of a conversation with her.  Social issues were also brought up.  

Of these seven, 2 are women, the rest men.  The other woman removed her name, but comes to Church sometimes.  One of them men comes to church every week.  Another sometimes.  The others stopped coming to church, two of them being quite angry.  I have had at least something of a discussion with all of them.  My ability to make a difference or help?  Not very much.  

So her last day at Church was to seek out others in an effort to destroy their faith, or to find others that would confirm her doubts. How did "social issues" lead her to dismiss Joseph Smith being a Prophet? He is not here to speak to any social issues of today...or is it the social issues that brought her to this point? Because many cannot stand up to public pressure and changing social issues, they fear the "arm of flesh" (ridicule)...the very thing all scriptures warns against, especially the BoM, those who point the finger laughing in scorn, causing others to be ashamed. I did not know Wards kept up with the numbers of those who left and made it available to members. I guess I am behind the curve, but I would never refer to someone as sad as members leaving the Church with "another one bites the dust"...I would weep instead...I do weep. 

[Scott Lloyd]

37 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Well..not all of us are so special.

I think this one was meant for me, so I'll answer.

You don't have to be special to desire to believe. And you don't have to be special to nurture faith. You only have to choose to do so.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

I understand that. I do not pretend to know the mind and will of God for all of His individual children. So I will not presume to judge your or other's like you.

I'm sorry if that came across like I was accusing you. I didn't intend that. It just gets pretty tiring for a lot of people to be told why they left the church (and it's usually one or more of a number of standard reasons) rather than people actually listening. What I get from Jeanne and Tacenda is that they wonder if things would have been different had someone been willing to listen. But I would imagine they, like me, own their choices without shame. 

[Scott Lloyd]

35 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

But you're suggesting that, as long as the person does what the scripture says, there is only one possible outcome. How can anyone possibly say that? What if it isn't God's will that someone join the church? What if it isn't His will to give someone the answer they so earnestly desire?

I don't presume to understand how and why God does things. Seems pointless to do so, even if it seems a "no-brainer."

 

Quote

 

24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation.

 25 Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price.

 26 Behold, hath he commanded any that they should depart out of the synagogues, or out of the houses of worship? Behold, I say unto you, Nay.

 27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.

 28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.

 

(2 Nephi 26:24-28)

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My point is that you can't pretend to believe something is true or right when you really don't believe it is. Not everyone who really wants a testimony receives one. I would think that's a no-brainer.

I don't concede to the part I emphasized above in bold. To do so would be to say that God is a respecter of persons, which would be false.

And I'm not talking about pretending. I'm talking about letting a desire to believe be a starting point from which one begins a process -- a nurturing of the seed, as it were.

It's OK to say that you don't yet believe, even as you acknowledge that you hope it's true. That's not pretending or being false.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Scott Lloyd