Why Are We Such Brittle Christians?

[Spammer]

I don't understand exactly what you mean by "two so-called failed testaments not really failed." Are you referring to the old and new testaments? I don't understand what your argument has to do with my statement. We believe that the Bible contains the word of God, which is determined through the spirit - "he who has eyes to see..." Our understanding of Biblical truths is both a prophetic process and a personal one. The same spirit the burns in my heart when I read the Bible burns in my heart when I read the Book of Mormon. I cannot at this point question one without questioning the spirit. If I reject the BoM, thereby rejecting the spirit, what leg does the Bible have to stand on when you remove spiritual witness? I am not interested in the game of secular evidence - it is not convincing enough to me.

Perhaps you're unaware that the only reason your New Testament contains what it contains is because the ancient Catholic Church meeting in council chose those books? They were selected and others rejected based solely on whether they had long been part of the various liturgies used for worship n the Church, which is older than the Bible. If the bishops in the ancient Catholic Church had selected a different set of books for use during the liturgy, that would be your New Testament.

[pogi]

Hmmm me thinks maybe you should explore other Christian doctrines a bit more. They are not all quite the way you portray them. 

 

Show me a faith where all of those unbaptized will be saved in a degree of glory, and where the only ones with no hope are not un-baptised but baptized of fire and risen to a stature in Christ where they are able to reject the Holy Ghost.

 

Heaven outside of Mormonism is relatively small as compared to hell.  It is completely opposite in Mormonism.  They interpret Matt 7:14 to mean heaven - "...few there be that find it.".  Where as Mormons interpret it to mean exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

[Ham Clam]

I pretty sure God knows that all of his children can not possibly fit under one roof. Human institutions can be too difficult for some people, especially if they have systemic problems. There are periods in history where association with the Catholic Church would be very difficult. There are simply people that cannot live in those houses, so why not try to put together a house in your best effort?

"We were the first and we put it together" isn't enough in this world where we see the mistakes of institutions close up. 

I think God approves of our plurality, 

[pogi]

Perhaps you're unaware that the only reason your New Testament contains what it contains is because the ancient Catholic Church meeting in council chose those books? They were selected and others rejected based solely on whether they had long been part of the various liturgies used for worship n the Church, which is older than the Bible. If the bishops in the ancient Catholic Church had selected a different set of books for use during the liturgy, that would be your New Testament.

 

I'm aware of the Church's role in compiling the Bible.  I don't agree with the process by which it was done, but I do believe they captured God's word in the books they chose, but they did not capture all of it. 

 

Perhaps you are missing my point.  I do not believe in the Bible because of how it was compiled or by secular evidence to confirm its validity.  I believe the word of God because of the spirit that bears witness to me, whether I recognize it in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in Buddhist teachings.  The same spirit bears witness to me of the truthfulness of both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.  I cannot dissect the BoM from that spirit and maintain spiritual integrity in believing the Bible through the same spirit. 

[Calm]

Not really straightforward at all but rather circular.

I accept a Person as God's perfect and full Revelation. I have yet to hear from a Mormon what Jesus left out. What is not perfect about the Revelation of Jesus Christ? What is not fully revealed in Him?

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories.

Do you not have Sacred Tradition adding understanding and depth and information to what is in the Scriptures?

 

For example the teaching of the Immaculate Conception.  How do you see it since it appears to add information that isn't found directly in the scriptures?

Edited December 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[Spammer]

I'm aware of the Church's role in compiling the Bible.  I don't agree with the process by which it was done, but I do believe they captured God's word in the books they chose, but they did not capture all of it. 

 

Perhaps you are missing my point.  I do not believe in the Bible because of how it was compiled or by secular evidence to confirm its validity.  I believe the word of God because of the spirit that bears witness to me, whether I recognize it in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in Buddhist teachings.  The same spirit bears witness to me of the truthfulness of both the Bible and the Book of Mormon.  I cannot dissect the BoM from that spirit and maintain spiritual integrity in believing the Bible through the same spirit. 

 

If the ancient Catholic Church had compiled a different set of books, do you think your spiritual witness of the Bible would be the same?  If yes, then by implication the Holy Spirit guided the church in making those selections - which is the position those of us who belong to that tradition hold.  My point is that the only reason you believe the books in the New Testament actually belong in the New Testament is because the ancient Church told you they belong in the New Testament.  You accept them, at least in part, on the authority of that Church.  If the Holy Spirit did not guide the ancient Church at least to select those books through the process I described, then the compilation of the New Testament was merely a man-made process, the same status Mormons ascribe to the Council of Nicea.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Spammer

[Calm]

LDS do not claim that the Spirit cannot influence others in other faiths or that God only works through LDS.

[Teancum]

Show me a faith where all of those unbaptized will be saved in a degree of glory, and where the only ones with no hope are not un-baptised but baptized of fire and risen to a stature in Christ where they are able to reject the Holy Ghost.

 

Heaven outside of Mormonism is relatively small as compared to hell.  It is completely opposite in Mormonism.  They interpret Matt 7:14 to mean heaven - "...few there be that find it.".  Where as Mormons interpret it to mean exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

 

 

Do your own homework Pogi. It is clear to me that like many Mormons you do not really grasp the breadth of what you view as apostate Christianity teaches and believes.

[bcuzbcuz]

I had a faith crisis scare a couple months ago with Joseph Smith's polyandry, and I found out about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and some science buddy tried to disprove and poke holes in the Book of Mormon and I questioned if there's really an afterlife and a loving God waiting for me when I pass on. Because of my mental condition I still sometimes have that fear pop into my head about what if there's nothing. I know that's Satan getting to me because I've felt the spirit during my patriarchal blessing and during a blessing by my Bishop. So If I ever fell away, I would still believe in Heavenly Father and Jesus.

It "could" be Satan trying get under your skin and turning your gaze away from truth, OR it could be just your own searching for reason and meaning trying to awaken a different perspective inside yourself. Questioning things is not necessarily the devil playing or toying with your allegiance. Questioning can be a healthy process of understanding the world around us without trying to make square pegs fit in round holes. A healthy process and not a tangled process.

[mormonnewb]

So you reject your sealing to your wife for all eternity?

 

We were never sealed.  I think she wants to keep her options open.  Besides, if she wants to find me in Mormon Heaven, all she would need to do is ask for "the black guy, no not Darius Gray, the OTHER black guy."

 

You reject the Holy Priesthood of Melchizedek?

 

I don't reject it.  It just doesn't hold any authority in a baptist church.

 

You reject the Doctrines and Covenants? The Pearl of Great Price? Do you also reject the Book of Mormon?

 

No more (or less) than I have accepted/rejected them in the past.  I'm not leaving over issues of historicity or Church history.  If that were the case, I would have never joined in the first place.

 

or you're just going under cover and you'll be bringing some of your black brothers with you when you come back?

 

I have no delusions there.  Remember, I'm going because THEY are the ones who will be fighting for the safety of my boys, while this wonderful church will be sitting this one out.  What possible argument would I be able to give them to forsake the institution that has made full-fledged citizenship more of a reality for their prosperity ... so they could join us in mumbling through our hymns each Sunday?  Seriously, the Church is going to have to make the first move towards bringing in black members and since it is uninterested in doing so at the present time, even my (considerable) charisma and charm isn't going to bridge the gap.

 

I strongly suggest you read D&C 84. Be careful out there. My 2 cents are that when you reject the Church you are rejecting the works of Jesus Christ.

 

I don't see that I am "rejecting" the Church.  I am simply pouring my time and treasure into another institution that will work to save my sons' lives.  And quite frankly, I refuse to believe that this Church's inaction on issues of social justice is all "the works of Jesus Christ" that can be mustered.

 

[Ham Clam]

Show me a faith where all of those unbaptized will be saved in a degree of glory, and where the only ones with no hope are not un-baptised but baptized of fire and risen to a stature in Christ where they are able to reject the Holy Ghost.

 

Heaven outside of Mormonism is relatively small as compared to hell.  It is completely opposite in Mormonism.  They interpret Matt 7:14 to mean heaven - "...few there be that find it.".  Where as Mormons interpret it to mean exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

You should check out Claiming Christ: A Mormon-Evangelical Debate, it has some back and forth on the un-baptized/un-evangelized that you would find interesting. 

[bcuzbcuz]

So you reject your sealing to your wife for all eternity? You reject the Holy Priesthood of Melchizedek? You reject the Doctrines and Covenants? The Pearl of Great Price? Do you also reject the Book of Mormon? or you're just going under cover and you'll be bringing some of your black brothers with you when you come back? I strongly suggest you read D&C 84. Be careful out there. My 2 cents are that when you reject the Church you are rejecting the works of Jesus Christ.

I have never, ever, given any statement on this site that in any way could define my skin colour, except that I was a missionary in the 60's.

I find it strange, rude and uncalled for that you frame your comment in racial parameters. What is it you're trying to say, "scratch a mormon and find a rasist?"

[mormonnewb]

As in you are leaving the Church, or you are moving your Mormon self into a black Baptist community?

 

Just curious, do Baptist's have something similar to the "baptism of desire" that the Catholics have or do Baptists reject the Mormon baptism all together giving us no hope for salvation if we die Mormon?  If you maintain your belief of the Mormon Godhead as separate individuals, yet call yourself a Baptist, would you be accepted as a "true" Christian among your Baptist brothers and sisters?  Would you not believe in a "different" Christ as I so often hear?  Seems like an uncomfortable juxtaposition to me.

 

I can only hope for your sake that there is hope for Mormons in the Baptist beliefs.  I could not imagine the turmoil of soul that you would suffer, knowing that the very people that attracted you to Mormonism in the first place - the very people that you served with in the Elders quorum or canned food beside down at the Bishop's store house, and those who served you and your family in Christlike love are hopeless without an authorized Baptist baptism.

 

Just so you know, by happy accident, Baptists are non-creedal.  Well, at least, in theory.  In fact, Baptists don't even believe in the necessity of baptism.  They simply believe that a baptism before the "time of accountability" is invalid.  Remember, in theory.

 

In practice, Baptists are super creedal and as a result, there are more than a hundred different denominations of Baptists, with beliefs differing over everything from pre-determination to the proper hand with which to accept the sacrament (and no, I'm not kidding).  However, this hyper-creedality (which I think isn't really a word) is balanced by the fact that most Baptists congregations are quite independent in their beliefs.  As a result, we normally take on the beliefs of our local pastor, to the extent that he/she even has a formalized belief structure.  And more often than not, we develop a mishmash of personal "theories" about the various aspects of the Gospel.

 

For example, I'm going back to a church that is part of the Full Gospel Baptist denomination.  It is my understanding that it's main distinctive flavor is that it embraces the "full" range of gospel gifts (e.g., the gifts of prophecy, healing, speaking in tongues, etc.).  In short, it is a charismatic black Baptist church (no big surprise there).  In a congregation of 6,000 members, less than 10 of us have probably ever read our denomination's statement of faith.  I know that I haven't.  Nor did any of us make any protestations of faith to become members.  Nor will I have to engage in any ritual or ceremony to return.  I'll simply walk through the doors on January 4th and say, "Remember me?"  Most won't, but a few will come up and give me a hug (or a fist bump) and I'll be back in the fold.

 

This is a long way of answering your question that I won't have any conflicts about embracing some Mormon beliefs while in the Baptist fold.  Quite frankly, it will NEVER be an issue.  It won't even come up.  The only questions will be whether I'm willing to resume my service as a youth advisor, serve as an usher and greeter, and show up at the marches and rallies.

 

Likewise, I won't lose any sleep that my Mormon brothers and sisters are now "going to hell."  I never believed that before I joined the LDS Church and I'll continue to believe that the Lord loves ALL of his children.  SOME of my Baptist brothers will disagree, but I doubt it will ever even come up as an issue for discussion (most of us have too many issues impeding our own salvation to spend time arguing about whether your lack of trinitarian belief will keep you out of heaven).

[why me]

One reason why former members may also forsake the chritian narrative is because the mormon narrative is extremely powerful in its truth claims. It is also all encompassing in its narrative. So, if one loses faith in the lds church one also loses faith in christianity and one becomes an atheist. This happens much.

 

There is no solution to this problem. People who are now former members had tremendous spiritual experiences when they were members and so, they also need to deny these experiences. As such, one can never trust any spiritual experience again, especially in christianity. Furthermore, since mormonism claims truth with its uniqueness, when one loses one's faith, it needs to be definitive. If one is a catholic or protestant one can hop skip and jump to other faiths rather easily. One reason for this is the Nicene Creed and how this creed creates unity among established faiths.

 

But for many mormons, it is the truth narrative, their spiritual experiences etc which all need to be thrown out with the bath water. And since they had a testimony of the book of mormon etc, how does one do it if not by a complete destruction of the faith?

[why me]

 

Likewise, I won't lose any sleep that my Mormon brothers and sisters are now "going to hell." 

This is true. Very few people go to hell in the lds faith. However, if god loved all his children he would not have allowed satan to have such power over us all. One could argue if this was love or just a little sick. After all, we are in a constant war with the devil with many of his children falling by the wayside in this war. Not to mention the demons that followed him in the war in heaven. If I had love, I may not have had the story act out in this way.

 

As Al Pacino said in the movie "The Devil's Advocate' it is the biggest goof of all time:

 

Watch from 2:30

 

Edited December 20, 2014 by why me

[Spammer]

People who are now former members had tremendous spiritual experiences when they were members...

 

Not all of them.  Some of them had no spiritual experiences.

[Calm]

I have never, ever, given any statement on this site that in any way could define my skin colour, except that I was a missionary in the 60's.

I find it strange, rude and uncalled for that you frame your comment in racial parameters. What is it you're trying to say, "scratch a mormon and find a rasist?"

ahh…I think you misread Rod's post, he quoted mormonnewb's post where mnb said he was going back to his black Baptist roots.

 

I think Rod was wondering if mnb was still a believer and wondering what he would tell the other members of his church, assumingly black since mnb identified it as a black Baptist Church.

[mormonnewb]

This is true. Very few people go to hell in the lds faith. However, if god loved all his children he would not have allowed satan to have such power over us all. One could argue if this was love or just a little sick. After all, we are in a constant war with the devil with many of his children falling by the wayside in this war. Not to mention the demons that followed him in the war in heaven. If I had love, I may not have had the story act out in this way.

 

As Al Pacino said in the movie "The Devil's Advocate' it is the biggest goof of all time:

 

Watch from 2:30

 

I'm not sure what your point is in attaching that clip, but I do know that this movie is NOT on the Approved List

Of course, I saw it BEFORE I joined the Church, so I have an excuse. But do you have a valid R-rated movie card, sir?

[why me]

I'm not sure what your point is in attaching that clip, but I do know that this movie is NOT on the Approved List

Of course, I saw it BEFORE I joined the Church, so I have an excuse. But do you have a valid R-rated movie card, sir?

A message is a message and causes one to think. If god had love, why design human life the way he did? It is certainly not easy battling the will of satan. And many lose the game. And when we think of the animal kingdom and its survival of the strong...I see very little love there too. I think that in this day and age, where we expect all to be centered around god's love, to be a little misleading.

 

My point was simple: if god is love, why did this love create the world like it is today. Why have such a trial period and what is this trial period for if god is love? I say this because of what you said in a previous post: I never believed that before I joined the LDS Church and I'll continue to believe that the Lord loves ALL of his children.

 

Why give satan such power if he loves all his children?

 

Nothing wrong with a r-rated movie. Most movies are restricted. Very few are G rated or even PG rated.

Edited December 20, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Not all of them.  Some of them had no spiritual experiences.

Then they should not have joined the lds church. Back in the day, one joined based on a testimony that was given by the holy ghost. Of course, nowadays this may not be mandatory for joing the lds church. And these members would certainly be weak. However, I also know members who had testimonies and shared them on the first sunday suddenly deny these experiences when they experience a loss of faith.

[Calm]

You forget that many are born in the Church and are baptized at the age of eight.

 

iIRC there is a Prophet or two who described himself as not getting a spiritual witness until he was a teen at least so to expect those who grow up in the Church to all have spiritual experiences they recognize as confirming the truth of the Church is a bit unrealistic, imo,.

Edited December 21, 2014 by calmoriah

[intra]

what do you consider it if a person has a testimony from the Holy Spirit that the LDS is running after false prophets? 

if everything such a person says agrees with the scriptures of the Bible, but contradicts D&C, and such a person affirms Jesus Christ is Lord, come in the flesh, given as a propitiation for sin on the cross and raised again the third day? 

do humans invalidate the testimony another receives from God? many conflicting testimonies are found among men - this is how apostasy exists - so what is valid? what is wisdom to discern true revelation from false prophecy? 
is there another authority that testimony can be held against - i.e. is scriptural authority greater than the authority of men? 
 

[pogi]

Do your own homework Pogi. It is clear to me that like many Mormons you do not really grasp the breadth of what you view as apostate Christianity teaches and believes.

 

You are right, I have not thoroughly studied every Christian sect.  That would be an impossibility. I interacted with people of just about every major denomination on my mission and learned about their general beliefs.  The overall impression that I received from these good folk is that heaven is relatively small as compared to hell.  One must be a Christian to be counted as one of the "few there be that enter."

I am open to the possibility that there are denominations out there that teach that non-Christians can make it into heaven, but I have never heard of one.  Spammer made me aware that the Eastern Orthodox might have something that allows for non-christians to be saved, but I would have to study more about it.

Edited December 20, 2014 by pogi

[Spammer]

You forget that many are born in the Church and are baptized at the age of eight.

iIRC there is a Prophet or two who described himself as not getting a spiritual until he was a teen at least so to expect those who grow up in the Church to all have spiritual experiences they recognize as confirming the truth of the Church is a bit unrealistic, imo,.

Agreed. Some of us are born into the church, graduate from seminary, serve missions, marry in the temple, pay tithing, pray and fast, and magnify callings and never have spiritual experience until after they leave the church. Edited December 20, 2014 by Spammer

[intra]

Agreed. Some of us are born into the church, graduate from seminary, serve missions, marry in the temple, pay tithing, pray and fast, and magnify callings and never have spiritual experience until after they leave the church.

yes, many have the truth turned upside down, as though hoping coins will fall from it's pockets. 

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

(Galatians 3:3) 

it is not until you cease from your own works that you can honor the Sabbath of the Lord.