Why Are We Such Brittle Christians?

[Mystery Meat]

Newb,

 

I think this is an excellent topic and one I have thought a lot about lately, but I go the exact opposite way as you might think. I think when folks (and I know this is generalizing) leave the Church due to Joseph Smith's (enter weakness or perceived weakness here) or other issues related to men, they are not focusing enough on Christ. It is for that reason that I think we are in fact very brittle Christians sometimes. Christ is good and perfect. More focus on him and less on polygamy, the sources of the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhood Plates, etc. and there would be a lot more testimonies of not only Christ himself, but also His holy anointed prophets, including Joseph Smith.

[JLHPROF]

Newb,

 

I think this is an excellent topic and one I have thought a lot about lately, but I go the exact opposite way as you might think. I think when folks (and I know this is generalizing) leave the Church due to Joseph Smith's (enter weakness or perceived weakness here) or other issues related to men, they are not focusing enough on Christ. It is for that reason that I think we are in fact very brittle Christians sometimes. Christ is good and perfect. More focus on him and less on polygamy, the sources of the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhood Plates, etc. and there would be a lot more testimonies of not only Christ himself, but also His holy anointed prophets, including Joseph Smith.

 

I kind of go a different way to this.  Rather than ignoring/dismissing things like Book of Abraham/polygamy/Adam God/Racial restrictions in favor of focusing on Christ OR allowing things to hurt my faith, I TRY my best to exercise faith and assume that God had a hand in all of it, or that there were legitimate gospel explanations for everything, even if I haven't figured it out yet.

 

For example - polyandry.

1. Ignore it, assume Joseph was human and probably made some mistakes, but focus on gospel basics instead

2. Let it upset/offend you and cause you to question Joseph's calling, lose some/all of your faith and possibly leave

3. Have faith that the relationships WERE by revelation from God and that there were gospel doctrine reasons behind them

 

Or BOA origins

1. Accept it as official canon, and don't worry about the origins because they don't matter to you

2. Assume that Joseph was a fraud, the Book was made up

3. Believe it's scripture, given from God, through his prophet, and revelation and that there IS some relationship to the papyrus.

 

I try to follow style number 3 and put my effort into resolving issues that way.  I try not to let my faith be weakened OR to assume that God's representatives made major sinful errors.

The big question is, do we get to choose, or are we hardwired to follow a certain way of dealing with this.

[Ham Clam]

Are you already banned too? I am certainly not ashamed of being one who calls himself Catholic who has been banned from there. "Gross" is not very precise...but it will do Ham Clam.

I haven't done enough on the boards to be banned. It just sets me off easily. Just the belittlement along with the tone of the apologists with Mormonism. Kind of feel like they prey on LDS members who don't know the issues/history well with their materials as well (but that's suppose to be the job on our side to educate).

 

 

 

 

Catholics are rather open and kind toward others of other faiths even if that forum can be rather unkind toward people of other faiths. And I am not so brittle.

 

I always need to remember that the major negative attitudes are usually outliers. I know some people would like a "bloggernacle" church, but I could use one without internet personalities making up the church.   

[Tacenda]

I think some on this board look down their noses on EV's just like the Catholics do to the Mormons on that other board. So I'll be darned.

[Ham Clam]

I think some on this board look down their noses on EV's just like the Catholics do to the Mormons on that other board. So I'll be darned.

Point well taken.

[why me]

We'll be waiting for you when you come back. There's no place like home.

The best ways to help people of all races is to question the socioeconomic system that we are living in. The baptists have done very little to help the black community to avoid poverty and crime and all that comes with it. It is a generaltional problem. Mormonnewb should know this if he is what he claims to be.

 

The plight of the black community as well as the plights of poor communities in general have more to do with a system that creates vast inequality in the economic and social level. The way to help people of all races is to question the system that pits race against race, while never addressing the root causes of the problem: a competitive market that puts profits before people and thrives on creating divisions among the general poputation to keep them separated and devisive.

 

To believe that the african american baptist church will solve the problem is quite naive. They haven't done so and will not do so unless they challenge the economic system that generates such wealth decrepancies at the root level. And in newark, the baptists seem quite powerless to solve the murders, and crimes that plaque the neighborhoods. It is systemic.

[why me]

I think some on this board look down their noses on EV's just like the Catholics do to the Mormons on that other board. So I'll be darned.

I think that you need to know the forum that we are speaking about. If this forum  treated people from other faiths like that forum, I do think that you may have left the church by now. You would not have tolerated mormons behaving in such a way. But that is just my opinion from knowing you on the boards and your searching for answers.

[BrotherofJared]

I've just heard for the umpteenth time on a podcast about how a committed saint lost his/her faith in the Church upon learning about JS' polyandry.  And, as is almost always the case, the person's loss of faith in the Church resulted in a complete loss of faith in Christ.  And I just don't get it.

 

I personally believe that they can't find anything better. Though they've given up the prophet, they haven't given up his teachings. It is harder to divorce such notions as, a pre-existence or that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are 3 distinct individuals acting in a common course under the direction of God the Father. I know a lot of ex-mormons that have joined other faiths and accepted their teachings, but I believe a lot of them fall into the category of accepting a belief but not agreeing with all of it. (This same phenomenon occurs naturally in a lot of Christian denominations especially in their belief in eternal marriage. Most of the Christians I know, say "God will never separate me from my husband." and I remind them that their religion does not teach that.)

[bcuzbcuz]

Newb,

 

I think this is an excellent topic and one I have thought a lot about lately, but I go the exact opposite way as you might think. I think when folks (and I know this is generalizing) leave the Church due to Joseph Smith's (enter weakness or perceived weakness here) or other issues related to men, they are not focusing enough on Christ. It is for that reason that I think we are in fact very brittle Christians sometimes. Christ is good and perfect. More focus on him and less on polygamy, the sources of the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhood Plates, etc. and there would be a lot more testimonies of not only Christ himself, but also His holy anointed prophets, including Joseph Smith.

What you´re saying is that troubles with testimony, or a faith crisis, should be re-focused from areas of doubt to the calm pools of assuredness until the crisis passes. Not a bad idea, if you´re paddling upstream, and need a rest to re-gain strength before tackling rough waters.

But checking troubled waters in Mormonism is a completely different experience than the problems faced by Christians in their own brand of faith crisis. I would think, but have no real statistics to back it up, that Mormons seldom come to a faith crisis because of doubts in the Old or New Testaments. Mormons don´t question the scriptures about the Christ, those are relatively still waters (if I can return to my similie). When Mormons face a challenge, it is most often on precisely the issues you state; Joseph Smith´s polygamy, his unfaithfulness to Emma, his teenage brides, his continual denial of ever engaging in polygamy, his polyandry with other men´s wives. As if that were not enough, we have Joseph Smith´s treasure hunting, his magical seer stones that glow in the dark. The same magic stones Joseph used to translate the Book of Mormon, instead of using the Urim and Thummin. Joseph´s varying story of his first vision. Joseph and the Kinderhook plates.

Temple ordinances, ceremonies and rituals and their connection to Masonry are worth their own topic of discussion.

When all these issues can be pushed aside, we come back to the Book of Abraham. We´ve recovered the facsimilies but the translation doesn´t add up. Joseph´s reformed Egyptian misses the mark in accuracy and story details..

Goinng back to my river analogy, when Mormons face troubles moving upstream in the rapids and troubled waters of a testimony of Joseph Smith, there are quiet pools of rest, but pushing against the waters persist from any given point. The struggle begins wherever you take to the waters and continue all the way up to the source.

[Avatar4321]

Reading over the last few pages, it occurs to me that it's difficult to partake of the tree of life from the great and spacious building.

if you want the benefits of the restoration you need to partake of the fruit.

[Tacenda]

I'm trying Avatar4321, to keep the fruit or partake in our church. I'd love to believe JS saw HF & Jesus, then all our troubles would melt away. In fact the whole world's would. Or I'd love to know and believe someone living right now has seen the Father & Son. But they're silent or it hasn't happened. If our leaders say they are witnesses, why is it too sacred to discuss? Are the original 12 apostles the only ones to have known Him face to actual face? If not then we need to hear, despite thinking someone's crazy or not. We can't go by feelings, even the Bible says that's foolish. If someone says they're a prophet or an apostle, they better really be. It's time to be that witness and shout it from the rooftops, because this world is slowly or quickly, becoming secular. It just feels so doomed to me. Maybe that's why Atheists are the way they are, the unknowing was killing them.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm trying Avatar4321, to keep the fruit or partake in our church. I'd love to believe JS saw HF & Jesus, then all our troubles would melt away. In fact the whole world's would. Or I'd love to know and believe someone living right now has seen the Father & Son. But they're silent or it hasn't happened. If our leaders say they are witnesses, why is it too sacred to discuss? Are the original 12 apostles the only ones to have known Him face to actual face? If not then we need to hear, despite thinking someone's crazy or not. We can't go by feelings, even the Bible says that's foolish. If someone says they're a prophet or an apostle, they better really be. It's time to be that witness and shout it from the rooftops, because this world is slowly or quickly, becoming secular. It just feels so doomed to me. Maybe that's why Atheists are the way they are, the unknowing was killing them.

 

We've had a few that have publicly said they saw Jesus. Why do you not believe them?

[pogi]

Tacenda,

 

If I told you that I saw Jesus, would you believe me?  What if it came from the preacher on the corner?  Would all of your doubts be resolved?  If you don't believe Joseph Smith, why would you believe the prophet today?  If you don't trust them now, why would you trust them then?  If you really want to know Tacenda, you need to stop blaming everybody else for your lack of testimony and start to trust in yourself - that you can know that God lives.  Nobody can give that to you.  True knowledge does not come from trust, but from experience.

[why me]

Tacenda,

 True knowledge does not come from trust, but from experience.

This is true. However, reading the life of Joseph Smith one can see that his knowledge did come from his experience. With Joseph Smith we can see that his knowledge just did not come from having a vision but rather from a series of happenings as he grew in his calling. And he certainly didn't trust without knowledge which is why he went to god to begin with about what church to join. Now the original apostles did not trust their experiences with christ which is why they went to hide during his crucification. It took another visitation to get them on board with the program, which was another experience they could not deny.

[pogi]

This is true. However, reading the life of Joseph Smith one can see that his knowledge did [not] come from his experience [first vision]. With Joseph Smith we can see that his knowledge just did not come from having a vision but rather from a series of happenings as he grew in his calling.

 

 Just to clarify, is the red part I inserted what you meant to say?

 

I agree that not all of his knowledge came from the first vision, but through a series of experiences (or "happenings" as you say) with the spirit.  My point is that it is experience (not necessarily vision but spirit) rather than trust in another man's word that brings knowledge.  Knowledge is a gift of the spirit.  It needs to be pointed out that to some it is given to believe on the testimony of others, and to others it is given to know for themselves.  Either way, it is not trust in another individual which brings knowledge, but the spirit which bears record of their word.  You need to trust in yourself and your ability to acquire the gift of knowledge.  

 

Tacenda, you talked about crying in sacrament the other day while singing about the savior.  That is what I am talking about - you experienced something real and good that caused the emotion.  The spirit causes an awareness which triggers an emotion, it is not necessarily the emotion itself.  I only say this because you mentioned that we shouldn't trust our feelings.  Focus on the awareness in that moment of emotion for knowledge, and focus on the emotion for comfort in that awareness.  The gift of spirit of knowledge is termed "the word of knowledge" in the Bible.  That is sometimes translated as "utterance of knowledge" which I like, either way it is the word of God. 

 

Isaiah 11:2  “And the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him—the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might,

the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord. He will delight in obeying the Lord."

 

Seek out the best spiritual gifts for yourself Tacenda and stop leaning on man so much and  you will do great.

 

Edited December 22, 2014 by pogi

[saemo]

I've had a terrible time these last few months with even a belief in Christ.  I guess I've listened to a few people say there isn't any real proof.  But during Sacrament Meeting today as we were singing a hymn about Him the tears flowed.  I'm grateful I at least still get that and hoping that it was the actual spirit that touched me.  I'm glad you're finally "home" Saemo, hoping to get there also.  I think too often LDS as was I, just take it for granted that they will always believe or don't realize how special that testimony is.  At least I took it for granted all these years! 

Did you cry in joy in knowing your redeemer lives, or in mourning of the loss of your belief? I have done both.

 

I know I have a wandering soul, and spiritual things for me are not all that obvious. I once told a friend my soul is retarded. Not in a derogatory usage of the word, but in its right meaning. For a long time after my conversion to Catholicism I prayed for Jesus to keep me near Him. Not on His account, on mine.

 

There are some people where spiritual things seem very natural to them. They are unnatural and unusual for me, and when they occur, I keep them close at hand for long periods of time.

 

But, the Mormon idea of "feel the spirit" was always lost on me. Still is. I don't know what it means. I don't know that I've ever experienced what it means. I get the impression it means something viewed out of the corner of your eye. But how would you know? A tear running down your cheek? Well heck, play a Hallmark commercial and you'll get that from me.

 

I view my spiritual experiences as more grounded in reality than I imagine what a Mormon is saying about "feel the spirit". Odd things like, what I never understood for my whole life, but now in my head like someone filed it in there while I wasn't looking. Other experiences, that I don't share with but a few people, and when I do, I find they have had almost the same experience as mine. I then wonder if they are soul mates?

 

God is such a strange and wonderful thing for a former atheist. Words don't really describe God and experiences of God. I think my atheism has given me a better appreciation of faith, than one who takes it for granted. Though on the flip side, when atheism left me and God gifted me with faith, I felt incredibly guilty for being an atheist for all those years. Of course, I also know I'm loved, and forgiven.

 

Faith is a mystery to me, but my own personal spirituality, and Catholic spirituality, does not require that I understand the mystery of faith. I accept what comes my way, seeking the deeper meaning like a sage interpreting dreams, is not my thing. I let God be God. I accept spiritual experiences as the gifts they are. I don't chase after spiritual highs, like an adrenaline junky does adrenaline, and I remain amazed that faith exists at all, in anyone. In a good way.

Edited December 23, 2014 by saemo

[pogi]

Did you cry in joy or in mourning of the loss of your belief? I have done both.

 

I know I have a wandering soul, and spiritual things for me are not all that obvious. I once told a friend my soul is retarded. Not in a derogatory usage of the word, but in its right meaning. For a long time after my conversion to Catholicism I prayed for Jesus to keep me near Him. Not on His account, on mine.

 

There are some people where spiritual things seem very natural to them. They are unnatural and unusual for me, and when they occur, I keep them close at hand for long periods of time.

 

But, the Mormon idea of "feel the spirit" was always lost on me. Still is. I don't know what it means. I don't know that I've ever experienced what it means. I get the impression it means something viewed out of the corner of your eye. But how would you know?

 

I view my spiritual experiences as more grounded in reality than I imagine what a Mormon is saying about "feel the spirit". Odd things like, what I never understood for my whole life, but now in my head like someone filed it in there while I wasn't looking. Other experiences, that I don't share with but a few people, and when I do, I find they have had almost the same experience as mine. I then wonder if they are soul mates?

 

God is such a strange and wonderful thing for a former atheist. Words don't really describe God and experiences of God. I think my atheism has given me a better appreciation of faith, than one who takes it for granted. Though on the flip side, when atheism left me and God gifted me with faith, I felt incredibly guilty for being an atheist for all those years. Of course, I also know I'm loved, and forgiven.

 

Faith is a mystery to me, but my own personal spirituality, and Catholic spirituality, does not require that I understand the mystery of faith. I accept what comes my way, seeking the deeper meaning like a sage interpreting dreams, is not my thing. I let God be God. I accept spiritual experiences as the gifts they are. I don't chase after spiritual highs, like an adrenaline junky does adrenaline, and I remain amazed that faith exists at all, in anyone. In a good way.

 

People have been endowed with different gifts of the spirit and experience the fruit in various ways.  It sounds like you have the gift of faith which is not retarded at all.  Other people feast on different fruits such as mentioned in these verses:

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law (Gal 5:22-23)." 

 

For me, I do experience the spiritual fruits and emotions of sacred joy and a profound peace, which accompanies awareness and knowledge of God's love for me -  

 

“the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit” (Romans 5:5)

 

What did Tacenda experience whilst singing about the Savior?  I would fain suggest "the love of God" as poured out in her heart made evident by the birth of Christ.  Do not question such love and peace, do not give yourself to doubt, but relish in those moments and meditate frequently on them. They are gifts, but the knowledge comes in the awareness of that love, not the feeling itself. 

Edited December 23, 2014 by pogi

[Tacenda]

Pogi, thanks for your encouraging words. Saemo, I think it was the spirit that may have touched me and the sadness of ever losing faith in the thought of Him being real.

[why me]

But, the Mormon idea of "feel the spirit" was always lost on me. Still is. I don't know what it means. I don't know that I've ever experienced what it means. I get the impression it means something viewed out of the corner of your eye. But how would you know? A tear running down your cheek? Well heck, play a Hallmark commercial and you'll get that from me.

 

 

This is what makes mormonism so special. Members can actually feel the spirit. Many christian churches deny this possibility. So, when mormons pray about the book of mormon they can experience unique spiritual experiences when the holy spirit confirms its truthfulness. But it also ocurrs in other moments in their lives too.  I remember when I was investigating mormonism, no one told me about experiencing or feeling the spirit. But when I walked into a member's home for home evening, I literally felt a pressence that I could not see. Afterwards, I was told that I experienced the holy spirit who was dwelling in that home. As a teenage catholic boy, that was quite an experience and the first time that I felt the spirit in someone's home or anywhere else for that matter. But I was impressed with that experience. More such experiences especially when I prayed about the book of mormon caused me to be baptized in the lds faith. And although I am not an active lds member, I have never forgotten those spiritual experiences that I had a few decades ago. Interetingly, many members begin to descontruct these experiences when they leave thelds church. They claim quite often that they can be had in all religions or even at a circus or by watching a moving movie etc. I have always found such comparisons to be sad but I also understand that they need to convince themselves that what they experienced was not so special.

 

I never experienced what I experienced within mormonism with hallmark cards, cards that were very much apart of christmas and birthdays. Nor at a wonderful movie that caused a tear to run down my cheek. The mormon experiences of the spirit were different.

Edited December 23, 2014 by why me

[why me]

Pogi, thanks for your encouraging words. Saemo, I think it was the spirit that may have touched me and the sadness of ever losing faith in the thought of Him being real.

I am sure that it was because I have had such experiences too. Exmembers will try to convince you that it wasn't. They will tell you like saemo, that such an experience can come from a movie or a greeting card. Not so. The experience that you had recently was special. And you should consider yourself lucky or blessed. But don't be surprised that as you share your experience, exmembers will attempt to convince you that it was all nonsense because such experiences can be had at a circus or an emotional moving play etc. But even exmembers have to down play their experiences within mormonism. But I also think that they must also live in denial when they claim so.

Edited December 23, 2014 by why me

[saemo]

People have been endowed with different gifts of the spirit and experience the fruit in various ways. It sounds like you have the gift of faith which is not retarded at all. Other people feast on different fruits such as mentioned in these verses:

For me, I do experience the spiritual fruits and emotions of sacred joy and a profound peace, which accompanies awareness and knowledge of God's love for me -

What did Tacenda experience whilst singing about the Savior? I would fain suggest "the love of God" as poured out in her heart made evident by the birth of Christ. Do not question such love and peace, do not give yourself to doubt, but relish in those moments and meditate frequently on them. They are gifts, but the knowledge comes in the awareness of that love, not the feeling itself.

Yes, that is a spiritual experience. Faith. It has changed things, to where I view just my every day life as living with God, which makes life a spiritual experience. I think most of the time when I hear people say they have spiritual experiences they are talking about grand things, in a large scale. I've said before, I am a simple Catholic. Mass, prayer, scripture. I find great joy and peace in those things. But I get kind of sappy this time of year. I just really love Advent, everything about it. Yesterday's readings are among my favorite, and I read past the liturgical readings to the Canticle of Mary, that is really wonderful. Followed up by the Canticle of Zechariah. A little musical going on there in Luke 1, preceded by the Annunciation. Hail Mary, full of grace! How to not have joy after Luke 1 would be a mystery.

I am more solid in my faith than as I was converting, of course. I watched people at church at that time and could see their faith, but I had none. It was very puzzling. That is where I felt most out of place and convinced something was slow about my soul. A priest said, all belong there, at Mass, no matter where they are on their journey, and it is then I felt home. A place where I belong. I call my faith a miracle. Sometimes the response I get from expressing that about my faith, is along the lines that miracles must not be all that great if all a miracle is, is faith. For me, and where I've been in my life, it's huge.

And yes, of corse too, I tear up sometimes at mass, sing Panis Angelica and I'm gone. Sing Silent Night on Christmas Eve in a candlelit church. I'm gone. I tear up easily, so I see it as, it wouldn't touch me so if I didn't believe, and so I see it as a continuing sign of the miracle of my faith. Sometimes, people convince themselves they no longer believe, but if you are tearing up over religious hymns, I'd say you have not stopped believing, or you are mourning something you no longer have.

That is why I asked what I asked. Do you believe, or do you mourn? Only the person who is feeling those emotions can look inside themselves and answer that question.

God bless you Pogi, and have a Merry Christmas.

Edited December 23, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

Pogi, thanks for your encouraging words. Saemo, I think it was the spirit that may have touched me and the sadness of ever losing faith in the thought of Him being real.

Abide in Him.

[saemo]

This is what makes mormonism so special. Members can actually feel the spirit. Many christian churches deny this possibility. So, when mormons pray about the book of mormon they can experience unique spiritual experiences when the holy spirit confirms its truthfulness. But it also ocurrs in other moments in their lives too. I remember when I was investigating mormonism, no one told me about experiencing or feeling the spirit. But when I walked into a member's home for home evening, I literally felt a pressence that I could not see. Afterwards, I was told that I experienced the holy spirit who was dwelling in that home. As a teenage catholic boy, that was quite an experience and the first time that I felt the spirit in someone's home or anywhere else for that matter. But I was impressed with that experience. More such experiences especially when I prayed about the book of mormon caused me to be baptized in the lds faith. And although I am not an active lds member, I have never forgotten those spiritual experiences that I had a few decades ago. Interetingly, many members begin to descontruct these experiences when they leave thelds church. They claim quite often that they can be had in all religions or even at a circus or by watching a moving movie etc. I have always found such comparisons to be sad but I also understand that they need to convince themselves that what they experienced was not so special.

I never experienced what I experienced within mormonism with hallmark cards, cards that were very much apart of christmas and birthdays. Nor at a wonderful movie that caused a tear to run down my cheek. The mormon experiences of the spirit were different.

oh I don't know. Since I am so easily brought to tears, I spend time examining why. Tears is not an indication of the Holy Spirit. If they were then my sister, who never cries and is very Mormon, must have something wrong with her and maybe should consider atheism. I'm being facetious, of course.

The head and the heart work together. Faith without reason is fanaticism, reason without faith is atheism. There's a good balance in the center, where both exist. God created us with the ability to reason. Therefore both reason and faith are gifts given to us, by God. I rarely see a Mormon encourage reason to go along with emotions. That lack of encouragement to reason is a faith crisis waiting to happen.

When a former LDS is criticizing the emphasis on feelings in Mormonis, it is because there is never expressed a rational explanation to go with those feelings. Along with the tendency of LDS to interpret the feelings of others, as you do in this post, and ascribe meaning to the feelings of others because what you've been taught. Feeling A = X, not having feeling A = Y. Guess what. I call that emotional manipulation. I invite you to go work it on someone else.

Edited December 23, 2014 by saemo

[Tacenda]

I know that feeling of Why Me's, and that of feeling the spirit in different homes. I attended a Bible Study a few months ago and I admit I noticed the feeling I had in that home felt a little different compared to how I feel in your average LDS home. It could have been that they all had a glass of wine, me included, which I drank in tiny sips and couldn't finish, it's not my thing. But that spirit I have felt wasn't there. I guess you can't take the Mormonism out of me. But am afraid that when my Home Teacher, the bishop, comes for a visit that there is no spirit in my home either.

[Avatar4321]

Tac, I wasn't really meaning you when I made my comment. I was talking about the mockers and accusers.

the Lord said we won't receive a witness until after the trial of our faith. We need to make q choice to believe in Christ and to do His will.

when you feel the Spirit it's much more intense than a feeling. You feel the love, power, and glory of God wrap around you as pure intelligence fills your mind. Your heart and mind expand. It's a truly.humbling experience.

even if all the faith you can muster is to believe God can reveal Himself to you if He chose to. That's enough