Why Are We Such Brittle Christians?

[Spammer]

The Catholic Church is not nor ever has been the church of the devil.

Oh, I agree, but that's not what I was taught.

[thesometimesaint]

Oh, I agree, but that's not what I was taught.

 

I've heard the same thing, but it was never the doctrine of the Church despite popular opinion and Bruce R. McConkies "Mormon Doctrine".

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_and_abominable_church

[Spammer]

I've heard the same thing, but it was never the doctrine of the Church despite popular opinion and Bruce R. McConkies "Mormon Doctrine".

SEE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_and_abominable_church

Yes, it's not the doctrine of the church, but I wasn't taught that it's not the doctrine of the church. Instead, I was taught that the popular opinion was the doctrine of the church.  The opinion was popular because it was taught as if it was the doctrine of the church.  I was taught that what Elder McConkie and church prophets before him said about the Catholic Church, that it's the Great and Abominable Church, was actually true. This was the consistent message I received at home and in church growing up, and in released time seminary during the school day.  In the link you provided, it cites FAIR who says "the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit.'"  That's not true.  I heard the belief taught frequently over the pulpit and in Sunday School/seminary class.  It takes a while for a culture to change and McConkie's and prior prophets' statements about the Catholic Church didn't begin to receive official censure over the pulpit until after the 2nd edition of Mormon Doctrine was published in 1979.  I was wrapping up my time in Young Mens and seminary and getting ready for my mission right around that time.  Alas, the church I grew up in was the version that valued the first edition and it's citations from previous LDS prophets. 

Edited December 21, 2014 by Spammer

[why me]

 

 

I have no delusions there.  Remember, I'm going because THEY are the ones who will be fighting for the safety of my boys, while this wonderful church will be sitting this one out.  What possible argument would I be able to give them to forsake the institution that has made full-fledged citizenship more of a reality for their prosperity ... so they could join us in mumbling through our hymns each Sunday?  Seriously, the Church is going to have to make the first move towards bringing in black members and since it is uninterested in doing so at the present time, even my (considerable) charisma and charm isn't going to bridge the gap.

 

I think that you are being uduly hostile in this post toward the lds church. If more black men and women would follow the gospel of the lds church, there would more black lives saved from black on black crime. The lds church has wonderful moral teachings that cross racial boundaries. And certainly, the word of wisdom could help the black community by leaps and bounds. And I am not just speaking about alcohol but also about drug addiction. Not to mention ideas about chasity and self-reliance. I think that you would find that those black members who are living the gospel are doing wonderful things in their lives.

 

The lds church teaches that gospel principles speak to all races. I can participate in many civil rights demonstations and I can march in the million man march. However, unless one can clean up their life, it all becomes meaningless. Sad that you have such a bleak view of the lds church but quite frankly, the black american comnunity needs the values of the lds church in their daily lives. But so do all races need such values.

[why me]

 

 

 

 

 

Mormonnewb wrote: We were never sealed.  I think she wants to keep her options open.  Besides, if she wants to find me in Mormon Heaven, all she would need to do is ask for "the black guy, no not Darius Gray, the OTHER black guy."

 

 

Mormon heaven? I have had this idea that you were never actually a member but a troll. Of course, maybe I was wrong about this but writing mormon heaven does give me a clue what your true intentions were. Your post totally ignores the saints in africa who are doing quite well as members of the lds church. Not to mention the african saints in Britain and in other parts of the world. I would think that the children of these members are being raised well, They are told to obstain from drugs, get an education, avoid alcohol, keep your body holy because it is a temple of god etc, And obey the law.  Again, all races can benefit from such teachings

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-africa-bright-land-hope

 

I found your post a little racist, discounting such africans whose lives are benefiting from the gospel. I do think that "mormon heaven" will be fulled with many african men and women who are actively living the gospel.

 

Check the links at the bottom to the article. The church is doing much in Africa.

Edited December 21, 2014 by why me

[mormonnewb]

I think that you are being uduly hostile in this post toward the lds church. If more black men and women would follow the gospel of the lds church, there would more black lives saved from black on black crime. The lds church has wonderful moral teachings that cross racial boundaries. And certainly, the word of wisdom could help the black community by leaps and bounds. And I am not just speaking about alcohol but also about drug addiction. Not to mention ideas about chasity and self-reliance. I think that you would find that those black members who are living the gospel are doing wonderful things in their lives.

The lds church teaches that gospel principles speak to all races. I can participate in many civil rights demonstations and I can march in the million man march. However, unless one can clean up their life, it all becomes meaningless. Sad that you have such a bleak view of the lds church but quite frankly, the black american comnunity needs the values of the lds church in their daily lives. But so do all races need such values.

What do you think is taught in black churches? Do you think we teach our kids to get high and have babies out of wedlock? Or perhaps, you think we teach our kids to steal, rob and engage in violent encounters with the police?

We teach our kids the same things that the saints teach their kids. Now, I will concede the LDS Church has structures in place that make those teachings far more effective. But since the Church (at present) has little interest in making an outreach to American blacks, we're going to have to make it the best way we can.

Edited December 21, 2014 by mormonnewb

[mormonnewb]

Mormonnewb wrote: We were never sealed. I think she wants to keep her options open. Besides, if she wants to find me in Mormon Heaven, all she would need to do is ask for "the black guy, no not Darius Gray, the OTHER black guy."

Mormon heaven? I have had this idea that you were never actually a member but a troll. Of course, maybe I was wrong about this but writing mormon heaven does give me a clue what your true intentions were. Your post totally ignores the saints in africa who are doing quite well as members of the lds church. Not to mention the african saints in Britain and in other parts of the world. I would think that the children of these members are being raised well, They are told to obstain from drugs, get an education, avoid alcohol, keep your body holy because it is a temple of god etc, And obey the law. Again, all races can benefit from such teachings

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormons-africa-bright-land-hope

I found your post a little racist, discounting such africans whose lives are benefiting from the gospel. I do think that "mormon heaven" will be fulled with many african men and women who are actively living the gospel.

Check the links at the bottom to the article. The church is doing much in Africa.

So, after all this time, you still have not picked up on the fact that I tend to use hyperbole? I realize that there are more than 2 black Mormons. Obviously, in a church with 15 MILLION members, there must be at least a dozen of us. And just in case you're confused, I'm using hyperbole here too.

I was simply making the point that it wouldn't be particularly difficult to locate my black wife in the CK, especially if past prophets were correct. In that case, I'll just have to go to the servant's quarters. (You really walked right into that one, my friend)

[why me]

What do you think is taught in black churches? Do you think we teach our kids to get high and have babies out of wedlock? Or perhaps, you think we teach our kids to steal, rob and engage in violent encounters with the police?

We teach our kids the same things that the saints teach their kids. Now, I will concede the LDS Church has structures in place that make those teachings far more effective. But since the Church (at present) has little interest in making an outreach to American blacks, we're going to have to make it the best way we can.

That wasn't my point. My point was that you were being unduly harsh toward the lds church. I proved that the lds church is doing much for africans. And that 'mormon heaven' will be filled with african brothers and sisters that will outnumber the two that you referred to. Something is wrong within the black american community. And certainly if more african americans would join the lds church the black community would be that much stronger. Many african americans have a baptist heritage and yet, problems still exist. It seems that the baptist church has failed the african american community. However, I think that many black mormons are doing just fine in the gospel. They are obstaining from drugs and alcohol, being encouraged to study well and get an education and avoid destroying the body. Not bad.

 

 

It is an old video. But it showed the growth of the lds church in africa. They come to the gospel with an open heart and a testimony. And those that have stayed in the gospel are certainly stronger for it.

[why me]

So, after all this time, you still have not picked up on the fact that I tend to use hyperbole? I realize that there are more than 2 black Mormons. Obviously, in a church with 15 MILLION members, there must be at least a dozen of us. And just in case you're confused, I'm using hyperbole here too.

I was simply making the point that it wouldn't be particularly difficult to locate my black wife in the CK, especially if past prophets were correct. In that case, I'll just have to go to the servant's quarters. (You really walked right into that one, my friend)

It was your tone. Your tone was mocking. Likewise for this post. Hostile. I think that you are now showing us just what you really thought of mormons. With the growth in africa, it seems that you are wrong about being in the servants quarters. You need to forget your amer-centrism and see the church from a world perspective. In the video that I just linked, it may be hard to find your wife among so many other black women. I  will link it again:

 

 

[Teancum]

The Catholic Church is not nor ever has been the church of the devil.

It was popularly taught and it was reinforced by an apostle who was a prolific writer and spoke very forcefully on his positions. His book Mormon doctrine was frequently quoted in church manuals in the 70s and 80s. If the church leaders disagreed with what he was saying as well with what he wrote they should have repudiated it. By not so doing, and we know leaders were not happy with his book but they let it stand, they tacitly approved of it.

Same is true of Benson's 14 fundamental point or attribute of prophets. They let is stand and recently the talk was quoted by two GAs in a GC,

The church owns it if they don't clarify it.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Teancum

[mormonnewb]

It was your tone. Your tone was mocking. Likewise for this post. Hostile. I think that you are now showing us just what you really thought of mormons. With the growth in africa, it seems that you are wrong about being in the servants quarters. You need to forget your amer-centrism and see the church from a world perspective. In the video that I just linked, it may be hard to find your wife among so many other black women. I will link it again:

You must have me confused with my older brother, Mormonoldb. I have ALWAYS been mocking in my tone. It is actually how I avoid being hostile. And since the servants in Heaven "revelation" has never been repudiated, I can either go out and buy a white tuxedo or I can mock the teaching. I choose Door #2, Monty!

As for how I feel about the saints, I love me some Mormons! It is my deep and abiding affection for the saints that made me willing to consider beliefs that I found, in some cases, silly. I figured that I would rather be "wrong" and become the kind of person that my bishop is than to be "right" and stay as I am.

However, becoming like my bishop will not increase my boys' chances of surviving a traffic stop. As Mormon as they might grow up to be, they will still LOOK like the people in that community you find to be so troubled. Therefore, I need to do what I can to make it safe for ALL young black men.

Part of that entails being a part of black congregation and trying to instill Christian values in those young men. And part of that entails working for systemic changes, something which black churches do particularly well.

On a personal note, I am saddened that I can't do such things within the Mormon context. Not nearly enough Mormonness had rubbed off on me. However, I'll just have to take solace in something my Nana used to always say, "I ain't what I want to be. I ain't what I'm gonna be. But, thank God, I ain't what I was."

[saemo]

Growing up in the church, if I had been taught what Catholics and Orthodox Christians really believe, what Saemo describes in her post, I probably would have avoided my long journey through atheism and hedonism.

Whatifs are not my thing, but my experience is similar to yours. Even after leaving Mormonism I continued to believe what it had taught me about mainstream Christianity. I continued to believe about God what Mormons teach about God, and that is what I most pointedly did not believe. I thought all of Christianity believed in the same God.

It wasn't until I became curious about the origins of Christianity that I began to read and study what Catholics teach and believe. It was an angry and wonderful period for me, all at the same time. To discover all the things I continued to believe about Christian beliefs were wrong. So, so very wrong. And recognize my atheism was based on rejecting the God of my youth, and to discover and be presented with the hidden treasure of Christ's Church, and Christ Himself. It was all so overwhelming, and at the same time, I felt drawn to the Good News of my Salvation. I read and read for over a year before I sought out an RCIA group. God called me home. Who knows why it takes a lifetime for that to happen. I hear the same from LDS converts today, some who are young, some who are in their 60s and 70s. So happy to be home, so puzzled as to why it took their whole lives. I just tell them all roads lead to Rome! Some just take a longer journey than others.

God is with all, even in their atheism. When a deacon said that to me, I about fell over I was so shocked. Mormons continue to tell me I've scared God off and He has left me. But there, someone said to me God is with me and always has been with me. I began to look back on over 20 years, and indeed recognized major points in my life where God was with me, even in my atheism.

The God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, is a joy to discover, to worship, to discuss, to love, to live. I don't think I'll ever get over Him!

[CV75]

I have ALWAYS been mocking in my tone. It is actually how I avoid being hostile.

Not recognizing that mocking is a form of hostility and division will escalate the hostility--not a good way to stay safe in any context, no matter what approach you put your faith in. When you are feeling hostile, turn to the Lord no matter what Church you go to. Otherwise whatever you learn in the name of the Lord will be used in hostile ways and for hostile and divisive purposes. This is the spirit that drives people away from Christ, even under the guise of His name (or of Paul, or Apollos or Cephas, or the world, etc.).

[Spammer]

Whatifs are not my thing, but my experience is similar to yours. Even after leaving Mormonism I continued to believe what it had taught me about mainstream Christianity. I continued to believe about God what Mormons teach about God, and that is what I most pointedly did not believe. I thought all of Christianity believed in the same God.

It wasn't until I became curious about the origins of Christianity that I began to read and study what Catholics teach and believe. It was an angry and wonderful period for me, all at the same time. To discover all the things I continued to believe about Christian beliefs were wrong. So, so very wrong. And recognize my atheism was based on rejecting the God of my youth, and to discover and be presented with the hidden treasure of Christ's Church, and Christ Himself. It was all so overwhelming, and at the same time, I felt drawn to the Good News of my Salvation. I read and read for over a year before I sought out an RCIA group. God called me home. Who knows why it takes a lifetime for that to happen. I hear the same from LDS converts today, some who are young, some who are in their 60s and 70s. So happy to be home, so puzzled as to why it took their whole lives. I just tell them all roads lead to Rome! Some just take a longer journey than others.

God is with all, even in their atheism. When a deacon said that to me, I about fell over I was so shocked. Mormons continue to tell me I've scared God off and He has left me. But there, someone said to me God is with me and always has been with me. I began to look back on over 20 years, and indeed recognized major points in my life where God was with me, even in my atheism.

The God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, is a joy to discover, to worship, to discuss, to love, to live. I don't think I'll ever get over Him!

Amen. Wonderful post.

[Tacenda]

Whatifs are not my thing, but my experience is similar to yours. Even after leaving Mormonism I continued to believe what it had taught me about mainstream Christianity. I continued to believe about God what Mormons teach about God, and that is what I most pointedly did not believe. I thought all of Christianity believed in the same God.

It wasn't until I became curious about the origins of Christianity that I began to read and study what Catholics teach and believe. It was an angry and wonderful period for me, all at the same time. To discover all the things I continued to believe about Christian beliefs were wrong. So, so very wrong. And recognize my atheism was based on rejecting the God of my youth, and to discover and be presented with the hidden treasure of Christ's Church, and Christ Himself. It was all so overwhelming, and at the same time, I felt drawn to the Good News of my Salvation. I read and read for over a year before I sought out an RCIA group. God called me home. Who knows why it takes a lifetime for that to happen. I hear the same from LDS converts today, some who are young, some who are in their 60s and 70s. So happy to be home, so puzzled as to why it took their whole lives. I just tell them all roads lead to Rome! Some just take a longer journey than others.

God is with all, even in their atheism. When a deacon said that to me, I about fell over I was so shocked. Mormons continue to tell me I've scared God off and He has left me. But there, someone said to me God is with me and always has been with me. I began to look back on over 20 years, and indeed recognized major points in my life where God was with me, even in my atheism.

The God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, is a joy to discover, to worship, to discuss, to love, to live. I don't think I'll ever get over Him!

I've had a terrible time these last few months with even a belief in Christ.  I guess I've listened to a few people say there isn't any real proof.  But during Sacrament Meeting today as we were singing a hymn about Him the tears flowed.  I'm grateful I at least still get that and hoping that it was the actual spirit that touched me.  I'm glad you're finally "home" Saemo, hoping to get there also.  I think too often LDS as was I, just take it for granted that they will always believe or don't realize how special that testimony is.  At least I took it for granted all these years! 

[why me]

Whatifs are not my thing, but my experience is similar to yours. Even after leaving Mormonism I continued to believe what it had taught me about mainstream Christianity. I continued to believe about God what Mormons teach about God, and that is what I most pointedly did not believe. I thought all of Christianity believed in the same God.

It wasn't until I became curious about the origins of Christianity that I began to read and study what Catholics teach and believe. It was an angry and wonderful period for me, all at the same time. To discover all the things I continued to believe about Christian beliefs were wrong. So, so very wrong. And recognize my atheism was based on rejecting the God of my youth, and to discover and be presented with the hidden treasure of Christ's Church, and Christ Himself. It was all so overwhelming, and at the same time, I felt drawn to the Good News of my Salvation. I read and read for over a year before I sought out an RCIA group. God called me home. Who knows why it takes a lifetime for that to happen. I hear the same from LDS converts today, some who are young, some who are in their 60s and 70s. So happy to be home, so puzzled as to why it took their whole lives. I just tell them all roads lead to Rome! Some just take a longer journey than others.

God is with all, even in their atheism. When a deacon said that to me, I about fell over I was so shocked. Mormons continue to tell me I've scared God off and He has left me. But there, someone said to me God is with me and always has been with me. I began to look back on over 20 years, and indeed recognized major points in my life where God was with me, even in my atheism.

The God of Christianity, Jesus Christ, is a joy to discover, to worship, to discuss, to love, to live. I don't think I'll ever get over Him!

I think that it is wonderful that you can come on this forum and speak about your faith without being mocked. This says much about mormons. Let us all hope that someday, the lds will be allowed to do so too on the catholic forum that you usually post on. This is one reason why I think that the lds seem very respectful and open minded toward other faiths and beliefs. Unlike on the catholic forum where you post, a site where Joseph is mocked and often disrespected as are many other church leaders, catholic leaders receive respect here as do you posts. You must admit that it is wonderful for you to preach to the lds. Something mormons are not allowed to do on the catholic forum.

 

I hope that someday you will share on that forum your wonderful experiences on this forum.

[why me]

I've had a terrible time these last few months with even a belief in Christ.  I guess I've listened to a few people say there isn't any real proof.  But during Sacrament Meeting today as we were singing a hymn about Him the tears flowed.  I'm grateful I at least still get that and hoping that it was the actual spirit that touched me.  I'm glad you're finally "home" Saemo, hoping to get there also.  I think too often LDS as was I, just take it for granted that they will always believe or don't realize how special that testimony is.  At least I took it for granted all these years! 

This is true. I think that it is  wonderful that you had such an experience in sacrement today. Just remember what you experienced and use it well. Having posted for a time on saemo's catholic board and experiencing all sorts of hostility there from catholics who were mormons and from catholics who were never mormons, I tend to take saemo's posts rather lightly. Knowing what I know from my experience on that forum with other momons who have also posted there who are also posting here, I can tell you that 'home' seems to be rather hostile and unwelcoming.

 

But the catholic church itself is rather different. People can be friendly and very human toward mormons. And we need to remember that in the december ensign, one general authority quotes the pope well and lovingly.

Edited December 21, 2014 by why me

[why me]

However, becoming like my bishop will not increase my boys' chances of surviving a traffic stop. As Mormon as they might grow up to be, they will still LOOK like the people in that community you find to be so troubled. Therefore, I need to do what I can to make it safe for ALL young black men.

 

Well, I am from Newark.  Trust me, I know the community very well. My dad worked in Newark. And so does my cousin. And newark is troubled with murders being commited everyday, usually black on black crime. The  best thing to do is to move to camden or newark and become a christian social worker. You may be able to help some in the community. From my own experiences, the newark police are the least of the problem. 

 

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2014/11/newark_had_nations_third_highest_murder_rate_in_2013_fbi_says.html

 

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2014/08/newark_homicides_fifth_victim_in_five_days_stabbed_to_death.html

 

When it comes to these issues, I tend to know my facts. The greatest danger to a black man is another black man. Who is too blame for it? Not the police. Maybe it is a system that puts human against human in competition with one another, creating poverty and hopelessness among a population group. There are also poor whites, asians and hispanics. Energy should be placed in ideological contexts.  America is not a white/black society anymore. The two police officers just killed in NYC by a black man were hispanic and asian. The times are changing.

Edited December 21, 2014 by why me

[Ham Clam]

I think that it is wonderful that you can come on this forum and speak about your faith without being mocked. This says much about mormons. Let us all hope that someday, the lds will be allowed to do so too on the catholic forum that you usually post on. This is one reason why I think that the lds seem very respectful and open minded toward other faiths and beliefs. Unlike on the catholic forum where you post, a site where Joseph is mocked and often disrespected as are many other church leaders, catholic leaders receive respect here as do you posts. You must admit that it is wonderful for you to preach to the lds. Something mormons are not allowed to do on the catholic forum.

 

I hope that someday you will share on that forum your wonderful experiences on this forum.

Catholic Answers is gross.

[why me]

Catholic Answers is gross.

I know saemo's game very well. I have seen saemo's posts on that forum. Not so understanding towards mormons. I find it all rather funny which is why I just can't take this poster seriously. However, this poster is treated very respectfully here. I just can hope that the posters on that forum you mentioned would treat the mormons with such consideration. I have to say that after the way I saw how mormons were treated on that forum, my taste for the catholic church soured. But then I took it all with a grain of salt. Cyberbullying is rather common. And I figured that the posters there had their own issues that they are dealing with in everyday life.

 

Catholics are rather open and kind toward others of other faiths even if that forum can be rather unkind toward people of other faiths. And I am not so brittle.

Edited December 22, 2014 by why me

[JLHPROF]

 I think too often LDS as was I, just take it for granted that they will always believe or don't realize how special that testimony is.  At least I took it for granted all these years! 

 

This I completely agree with.  I worry about letting down my guard sometimes...that's all Satan needs.  We all have our faith weaknesses and Satan will always find the right one for each of us.

I have seen it happen so many times, even in my own family...

[Hamba Tuhan]

On a personal note, I am saddened that I can't do such things within the Mormon context. Not nearly enough Mormonness had rubbed off on me. However, I'll just have to take solace in something my Nana used to always say, "I ain't what I want to be. I ain't what I'm gonna be. But, thank God, I ain't what I was."

 

We'll be waiting for you when you come back. There's no place like home.

[Ham Clam]

I get bitter too easy at the comments of strangers. Just need to get a thicker skin, I guess.

 

[pogi]

However, becoming like my bishop will not increase my boys' chances of surviving a traffic stop. As Mormon as they might grow up to be, they will still LOOK like the people in that community you find to be so troubled. Therefore, I need to do what I can to make it safe for ALL young black men.

 

Something to think about - If these last two incidents of police stupidity had not happened or been reported by the media, do you think that you would have left the church at this time for the same reason?  This is certainly a very sensitive and hot-topic right now, but should the church get involved in every sensitive and hot-topic whenever the media strikes?  Should we expect the church to get involved in EVERY worthy cause?  While the death of these two black men were tragic, does their deaths deserve the full attention of the church?  Or, is it the bigger historical issue?  If so, then why were you OK with the church's stance on black issues before these two incidents as evidenced by your baptism and activity?  What changed? Are things really getting worse, deserving the intervention of the church, or does history show that they are getting better and that these are two tragic incidents of an improving history?

 

Obviously, I don't really know what it is like out there for black men.  Are they really unsafe because of police?  Do you honestly feel that your boys are unsafe?  What if they were two white men who were victims of police stupidity?  Should I be afraid for my children (If I had any) Wouldn't have even made the media if they were white, as evidenced by history.  I recognize that there is a long history with blacks and police, but how BIG is the issue still?  Perhaps I am just an ignorant white dude from Utah, so help me understand.

 

Second - theologically speaking, do you lean more baptist or Mormon?  Just curious.

Edited December 22, 2014 by pogi

[3DOP]

Catholic Answers is gross.

 

Are you already banned too? I am certainly not ashamed of being one who calls himself Catholic who has been banned from there. "Gross" is not very precise...but it will do Ham Clam.