Why Are We Such Brittle Christians?

[mormonnewb]

I've just heard for the umpteenth time on a podcast about how a committed saint lost his/her faith in the Church upon learning about JS' polyandry.  And, as is almost always the case, the person's loss of faith in the Church resulted in a complete loss of faith in Christ.  And I just don't get it.

 

And let's be clear.  I TOTALLY understand how somehow could lose faith in the Church.  I just don't get throwing out the baby (Jesus) with the polyandry.  In my studies of Mormon history, I've come to believe that there are many parts of our founding narrative that are either misunderstood, exaggerated, whitewashed or just plain not true.  But there is NOTHING that you could tell me about JS, BY, President Monson, my beloved bishop (or even my very own mother) that would cause me to abandon my belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

And don't get me wrong.  I'm not claiming that my faith in Christ is bullet-proof.  I could imagine losing faith in Christ if I suffered some horrendous personal tragedy that caused me to doubt the existence of a god or, at least, that a loving god could allow me to experience such pain.  I just can't imagine losing faith in my Savior because I felt lied to by a MAN.

 

Yet, I hear that time and again from Mormons.  They come to the conclusion that JS was not truthful or mistaken and pretty soon, there is no Jesus.  How do these two things become conflated?  After all, JS didn't "discover" Jesus Christ.  Nor did he "invent" the figure of a Savior out of whole cloth.  So even if JS was completely wrong about the Restoration, it wouldn't affect Christ's earthly ministry or any of the marvelous acts attributed to him in the Gospels.  So why is that when someone rejects Mormonism, they so often reject Christ too?

 

To me, it would be like going to the Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter movie and later discovering that it wasn't a "true life story," and then concluding that there must have never been an Abraham Lincoln at all.

 

To my knowledge, this doesn't happen with, say, Lutherans or Calvinists.  I've certainly never heard of anyone learning about Luther's horrifying anti-semitism or his allowing Philip's bigamy and then swearing off the Savior as a "fiction."  Most often, these people don't even consider leaving Lutheranism.  But even if they do decide that they must find a new church, it isn't the Church of Secular Humanism.  They simply move to another sect of Christianity or hope that their new church is slightly less flawed than their old church.

 

But what is it about Mormonism that creates such brittle Christians?  And is there a way to allow saints to come through the furnace of disaffection with their Christianity still largely intact?

[Duncan]

I don't think it's exclusive to Mormonism

[mormonnewb]

I don't think it's exclusive to Mormonism

 

I'm sure that it's not exclusive to us, but it's not NEARLY as common among the other mainline branches of Christianity.  They're just not that wed to their denominations.  Growing up, we went to whichever church happened to be nearest to our house (or had the best choir).  As a kid, I went to Lutheran, Baptist, AME, BET, XYZ, E-I-E-I-O, you name it.  If it had a crucifix somewhere in the place, it was fine with us.  In fact, until I left the Baptist church four years ago, I didn't even know what made me a Baptist, as opposed to a Methodist or any other Protestant.  And certainly, there is nothing that happened in the sometimes sordid history of that denomination that would ever make me think, "Well if this Church did X, Y or Z, then Jesus must be fictional."  Yet, I hear this all of the time from ex-Mormons.

 

And perhaps, that is the case with some Catholics, JWs or others.  But for the most part, mainline Protestants don't tie their faith in Christ so closely to their faith in their church.  Why do we do so?

[Buckeye]

It boils down to the church's claim that it is the only true and living church, coupled with most members' full acceptance of that teaching.

[omni]

The church has taken an all or nothing approach. If one is raised in the church and then experiences a loss of faith, it's very natural to take a skeptical view of Christianity, or religion in general.

One can easily feel burned and many of the criticisms of Mormonism can more broadly be applied to Christianity, especially with it's connection to the OT.

[JLHPROF]

For me there would be no alternative Christianity to Mormonism. If I ever decided Mormonism was false I could never accept a catholic, evangelical or nondenominational Christianity. Theologically they make no sense to me and they don't touch my faith. For me Mormonism has the only teaching of Christ that makes any sense, so if Mormonism were false I see no Christian alternative.

Maybe I'd become a buddhist and learn to meditate...

[Tacenda]

All good comments. Agree to the ones about the all or nothing approach. And the church admitting mistakes just doesn't give it as much credibility. Plus we are always learning about or idolizing temples, missionaries, priesthood when really all we should be idolizing is Christ. He is the PH, he came in place of temples, and the missionaries should teach about him not necessarily teach abiut joining the only true church. The church sets it's members up for a fall that way.

[Tacenda]

For me there would be no alternative Christianity to Mormonism. If I ever decided Mormonism was false I could never accept a catholic, evangelical or nondenominational Christianity. Theologically they make no sense to me and they don't touch my faith. For me Mormonism has the only teaching of Christ that makes any sense, so if Mormonism were false I see no Christian alternative.

Maybe I'd become a buddhist and learn to meditate...

Case in point!!!

[Duncan]

For me there would be no alternative Christianity to Mormonism. If I ever decided Mormonism was false I could never accept a catholic, evangelical or nondenominational Christianity. Theologically they make no sense to me and they don't touch my faith. For me Mormonism has the only teaching of Christ that makes any sense, so if Mormonism were false I see no Christian alternative.

Maybe I'd become a buddhist and learn to meditate...

 

 

I've heard that many times from inactive members, that it's ruined for them to attend other churches

[bcuzbcuz]

All good comments. Agree to the ones about the all or nothing approach. And the church admitting mistakes just doesn't give it as much credibility. Plus we are always learning about or idolizing temples, missionaries, priesthood when really all we should be idolizing is Christ. He is the PH, he came in place of temples, and the missionaries should teach about him not necessarily teach abiut joining the only true church. The church sets it's members up for a fall that way.

I totally agree with your statement here. At the same time, the Mormon church could not possibly do otherwise and still maintain its very premise for existence; that all the other thousands of religious faiths, Christian and non-Christian, fall short of providing salvation.

The concept of "we've got the best thing around + come join us" is built in. The Jehovah Witnesses have the same concept. "Everybody else has got it wrong,, but we got it right, so your choice must be obvious."

Now that the church is publishing its own letters of apology; 'We made mistakes, We got some things wrong, Our leaders are really no more perfect than the average joe of any other religion', there will be a considerable backlash.

There are those who defend the idea that new members should be spoon fed at first, letting them find a firm footing before giving them the full blast of reality. But I am born and raised in mormonhood and many issues were "silenced to death" and I was spoon fed by devote members who had no concept of when or if the whole story should be brought to light. The whole "milk and meat" nonsense does not stand well with the stories of the early saints bravely taking a position against any and all threats, firm in their belief that there was purpose in boldly standing up against opposition.

Now, with the internet and its immediate access to milk, meat and crap, the decision of "when" someone should be told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, is no longer a conscious decision but is just another random occurrence in life.

[Tacenda]

I totally agree with your statement here. At the same time, the Mormon church could not possibly do otherwise and still maintain its very premise for existence; that all the other thousands of religious faiths, Christian and non-Christian, fall short of providing alvation.

The concept of "we've got the best thing around + come join us" is built in. The Jehovah Witnesses have the same concept. "Everybody else has got it wrong,, but we got it right, so your choice must be obvious."

Now that the church is publishing its own letters of apology; 'We made mistakes, We got some things wrong, Our leaders are really no more perfect than the average joe of any other religion', there will be a considerable backlash.

There are those who defend the idea that new members should be spoon fed at first, letting them find a firm footing before giving them the full blast of reality. But I am born and raised in mormonhood and many issues were "silenced to death" and I was spoon fed by devote members who had no concept of when or if the whole story should be brought to light. The whole "milk and meat" nonsense does not stand well with the stories of the early saints bravely taking a position against any and all threats, firm in their belief that there was purpose in boldly standing up against opposition.

Now, with the internet and its immediate access to milk, meat and crap, the decision of "when" someone should be told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, is no longer a conscious decision but is just another random occurrence in life.

This in a nutshell! And I'm grappling with my own belief in Jesus now, and blame it on my FC about the church. And feel as if I'm becoming anti over it, consumed by it and it's to the point of just feeling so lonesome when I don't believe like everyone in my existence, my world is Mormonism. Maybe if the church hadn't only given milk the meat wouldn't have choked me, and I'm speaking about JS' s polygamy. And feel for the rest of the misfit or broken LDS out there. It'd be nice to just move on to a different church, but there would be repercussions. And it would be wonderful to believe again, in something. Edited December 19, 2014 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

I think it also has to do with where a person's testimony comes from, and how someone interprets their testimony after they lose faith in the LDS church.  

 

If someone is taught that certain experiences and 'feelings' (for lack of a better term) mean that the Holy Ghost is testifying that something is true, and then they decide later (for whatever reason) that those things aren't true despite having had those experiences and feelings, then a lot of times that translates into a loss of faith in their ability to discern all spiritual truth.

 

And since knowing that Jesus is the Christ and the Savior is a spiritual truth that only the Holy Ghost can give someone, losing faith in the whole testimony process impacts way more than just spiritual truths attached to LDS theology.

 

Also, when something like history or contradictions and the like are the primary event that causes someone to lose their testimony of the church in the first place, that can easily leak over into biblical history and contradictions as well.  Bart Erhman (sp?) is a good example of someone (not LDS) who studied the bible and came to the conclusion that it's just made up because of all the issues that it has.  Once that kind of thing starts to matter to someone (once historical issues have caused a loss of faith in certain theological beliefs) then it isn't surprising that that momentum would continue and eventually impact all theological beliefs.

Edited December 19, 2014 by bluebell

[Garden Girl]

This in a nutshell! And I'm grappling with my own belief in Jesus now, and blame it on my FC about the church. And feel as if I'm becoming anti over it, consumed by it and it's to the point of just feeling so lonesome when I don't believe like everyone in my existence, my world is Mormonism. Maybe if the church hadn't only given milk the meat wouldn't have choked me, and I'm speaking about JS' s polygamy. And feel for the rest of the misfit or broken LDS out there. It'd be nice to just move on to a different church, but there would be repercussions. And it would be wonderful to believe again, in something.

 

Hello Tacenda...

I for one don't get the losing of faith in Christ if one loses faith in the Church... Of course I feel pretty much like JLHPROF in that my faith in the Church has pretty much ruined any other organized "denomination" for me... so if for some reason I lost faith in the Church, I'd have to simply attend a non-denominational but general, bible-based, Christian church... and just do the best I could to continue to live a Christ-centered life.  My lonliness would be for all of the beautiful principles and concepts of the gospel... for the temple... for my eternal family and companion... it would break my heart, but I wouldn't lose my faith in the Savior or in my Heavenly Father. 

 

GG

[thesometimesaint]

If you believe mortals are infallible. Get over it.

[Coreyb]

Most lay Christians never take a critical look at the historicity of Jesus or the composition of the bible, just as most lay LDS Christians never take a critical look at the history of mormonism or the LDS scriptures, (or the history of Christianity for that matter). When a mormon loses their faith in mormonism because they began to take a critical look, (most just barely scratch the surface IMO) they then look at Christianity in the same way they looked at mormonism. Mormonism is not a denomination of Christianity so much as it is a new religion built upon the existing Christian tradition, much like how Christianity is built upon Judaism. Comparing a mormon who loses faith in mormonism to a baptist who loses faith in the doctrines and bylaws of their baptist church is really not a fair comparison. Try comparing Mormons to a Christian who loses faith in Christianity and then loses faith in the God of Abraham. Christians lose faith because of science, archeology, and Biblical criticism ALL THE TIME! How many become Jews versus becoming atheist or agnostic do you think?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Coreyb

[Kenngo1969]

...  But for the most part, mainline Protestants don't tie their faith in Christ so closely to their faith in their church.  Why do we do so?

You've heard the old joke about the Indians Native Americans being after Tonto and the Lone Ranger, when the Lone Ranger asks, "Tonto, what do we do?" and Tonto says, "What do you mean 'we,' white man?"  What do you mean 'we,' black ma— (OK, that was way funnier in my head than it ended up being in print.  Sorry.)  Aaaanyway, it is a good question, and I'm not sure I have many good answers.  Maybe part of the answer lies in the proposition that many of the same people who tend toward fundamentalism and black-and-white thinking in their belief also tend toward fundamentalism and black-and-white thinking in their disbelief.  I don't necessarily think such a turnaround is entirely the fault of the (dis)believer, either. Sometimes, we as teachers and leaders may bear part of the blame if we "oversell" and are too provincial about possession of truth in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  When that happens, it may lead a believer to think that there is less ambiguity in the teachings of the Church than there really is, and that there are fewer unanswered questions in the Church than there really are.  

 

Part of the answer, I think, lies in the constraints of mortality.  I believe Joseph Smith and other early members and leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ when they say they had encounters with otherworldly beings with infinite (or at least with less finite) perspectives, while we mortals, of course, have finite perspectives.  Sometimes, things get "lost in translation" when someone with an infinite (or less finite) mind tries to convey something that is truly transcendent to someone with a finite mind.  I think this is where a lot of the ambiguity and unanswered questions come in, and this is part of the reason why someone who tends toward black-and-white thinking might have a problem in the Church of Jesus Christ.  Does the Church have many of the answers?  Yes.  Does it, from my perspective and that of many other believing Latter-day Saints, have more answers than (with all due respect to my Christian brothers and sisters of other stripes, whose devotion I don't question), have more of the answers than, say, the average Protestant church or denomination?  I believe it does.  But all of the answers haven't been revealed yet (see Articles of Faith 1:9).  Indeed, there are whole books that haven't been revealed yet, because we as individual members and the Church collectively aren't ready for them (see, e.g., the following addresses, last accessed December 19, 2014: https://www.lds.org/new-era/2011/10/to-the-point/what-is-the-sealed-portion-of-the-book-of-mormon-and-will-we-ever-know-whats-in-it?lang=eng; https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/the-plates-of-brass-a-witness-of-christ?lang=eng).

 

People in the Church of Jesus Christ often complain, "We've had enough of the milk; we're ready for the meat."  (See 1 Corinthians 3:2 and Hebrews 5:12).  But, frankly, while I don't claim to know the mind of God or the hearts of my fellow Saints, I don't think God will be persuaded that that's the case until many fewer people in the Church of Jesus Christ demonstrate that we won't blow away like chaff in the whirlwind the first time we're confronted with ambiguity based on what we have now or when one of our fellow members says or does something that's not in harmony with the teachings of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ (or, at least, that's not in harmony with our conception of those teachings.) 

[Ham Clam]

I'm assuming that you guys have read Gina Colvin's Why Leaving the Church Often Means Leaving God.

I attending a Baptist church in the mornings with my boyfriend. It just doesn't have the full emerging experience like Mormonism does. Some many aspects of my life could not be fulled by being Baptist. I would have to go elsewhere for many.

 

I agree with Coreyb on his points.



 

[mormonnewb]

Most lay Christians never take a critical look at the historicity of Jesus or the composition of the bible, just as most lay LDS Christians never take a critical look at the history of mormonism or the LDS scriptures, (or the history of Christianity for that matter). When a mormon loses their faith in mormonism because they began to take a critical look, (most just barely scratch the surface IMO) they then look at Christianity in the same way they looked at mormonism. Mormonism is not a denomination of Christianity so much as it is a new religion built upon the existing Christian tradition, much like how Christianity is built upon Judaism. Comparing a mormon who loses faith in mormonism to a baptist who loses faith in the doctrines and bylaws of their baptist church is really not a fair comparison. Try comparing Mormons to a Christian who loses faith in Christianity and then loses faith in the God of Abraham. Christians lose faith because of science, archeology, and Biblical criticism ALL THE TIME! How many become Jews versus becoming atheist or agnostic do you think?

That's a fair point. I certainly didn't look at the Bible as critically before I took a critical look at the BOM. Even still, I have never hung my faith on the inerrancy of scripture, particularly the historical details of, say, the OT. I take meaning from the fall in the garden, Noah's flood, the exodus from Egypt apart from their historicity. After all, Jesus did MOST of his teaching through parables, so why wouldn't HF use the same method with in the OT?

Of course, I didn't grow up hearing that the Bible "was the most correct book of any book on earth" or that Christianity "rises or falls with the truth of Jonah and the whale." In fact, I often hear Christian pastors take great delight in revealing common mistakes and misperceptions in scripture.

For instance, I once heard a pastor give an entire sermon based on the implausibility of Samson killing 1,000 Phillistines with the jawbone of an ***. He laughingly explained how difficult it would have been for the 1,000th Phillistine to climb over the mounds of dead bodies to get within "jawbone distance" of Samson. Or the implausibility of that person being ANYWHERE near Samson after watching him dispatch 999 other soldiers.

He wasn't trying to ruin anyone's faith. He was just trying to demonstrate that Hebrew lore had a tendency to be exaggerated (like all lore). As 21st century people, we should be able to handle that same type of understanding of ancient texts without it causing us to throw away everything else we hold sacred.

[Coreyb]

That's a fair point. I certainly didn't look at the Bible as critically before I took a critical look at the BOM. Even still, I have never hung my faith on the inerrancy of scripture, particularly the historical details of, say, the OT. I take meaning from the fall in the garden, Noah's flood, the exodus from Egypt apart from their historicity. After all, Jesus did MOST of his teaching through parables, so why wouldn't HF use the same method with in the OT?

Of course, I didn't grow up hearing that the Bible "was the most correct book of any book on earth" or that Christianity "rises or falls with the truth of Jonah and the whale." In fact, I often hear Christian pastors take great delight in revealing common mistakes and misperceptions in scripture.

For instance, I once heard a pastor give an entire sermon based on the implausibility of Samson killing 1,000 Phillistines with the jawbone of an ***. He laughingly explained how difficult it would have been for the 1,000th Phillistine to climb over the mounds of dead bodies to get within "jawbone distance" of Samson. Or the implausibility of that person being ANYWHERE near Samson after watching him dispatch 999 other soldiers.

He wasn't trying to ruin anyone's faith. He was just trying to demonstrate that Hebrew lore had a tendency to be exaggerated (like all lore). As 21st century people, we should be able to handle that same type of understanding of ancient texts without it causing us to throw away everything else we hold sacred.

I think it's great that you were raised that way, but having lived in small Midwestern towns my experience is that many Christian youth are raised with very binary view of the Bible, just as many mormon youth are raised with a very binary view of LDS prophets

[CV75]

But what is it about Mormonism that creates such brittle Christians?  And is there a way to allow saints to come through the furnace of disaffection with their Christianity still largely intact?

Since Mormon ideology represents the antithesis of anti-Christ and the greatest enemy to the adversary, the same spirit that entices members to reject the Restoration of the Gospel will also bear down upon them to reject Christ (“…he who sins against the greater light shall receive the greater condemnation.” – D&C 82:3).

It is not that Mormonism creates brittle Christians, it is that it attracts the most dangerous enemies to fight it from within and from without, especially in the last days, or the days of the Restoration (Timothy 3).

That said, I know many people who have left the Church but have remained Christians--at least in name, for their attitude often betrays anti-Christ influences.

[JLHPROF]

Case in point!!!

 

What case?

That Mormonism is the only form of Christianity that makes any sense?  That the truth of Christ and his gospel is what makes worshipping him worthwhile?  That there really can't be an alternative option to truth?

What case does my faith in Christ as taught by Mormonism make?

Surely you aren't saying that all Christian faith is of the same value, because many shall say Lord, Lord....

[thesometimesaint]

I think it is more comparable to losing faith that the Bible is the only words of God. For the nonLDS it is a relatively small jump to Mormonism or Catholicism. For LDS it is a big jump to some type of Agnosticism or flat out Atheism.

[pogi]

My belief in Christ is so intertwined in Mormon theology that I could not divorce myself from Mormonism and not feel completely lost in terms of who Christ is.  Where is a Mormon to turn?  Are they to turn to a Christ that sends all Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. to hell?  Are they to turn to an incomprehensible Christ of the trinity?  Are they to turn to a Christ that condemns innocent children to hell for not being baptized?  Are they to turn to a Christ that condemns all Mormons (family, friends and associates) to hell?

 

You see, other Christians do not struggle with these same predicaments because they grew up believing all of this already.  They do not need to change from a comprehensible and approachable being to an incomprehensible trinitarian mess.  They don't need to condemn their family and friends to hell because their baptism is acceptable and transferable between sects.  The concept of Christ is transferable between Christian sects for the most part, and where it isn't (JW's) I would suspect that you would see the same phenomenon that you see in Mormonism.

 

If I left Mormonism, I would probably become some independent new age spirituality dude - free from any sect or creed.

Edited December 19, 2014 by pogi

[mormonnewb]

What case?

That Mormonism is the only form of Christianity that makes any sense? That the truth of Christ and his gospel is what makes worshipping him worthwhile? That there really can't be an alternative option to truth?

What case does my faith in Christ as taught by Mormonism make?

Surely you aren't saying that all Christian faith is of the same value, because many shall say Lord, Lord....

Why do you think of the Church as being synonymous with the Gospel? JS didnt see it that way. Years went by between the FV and the founding of the Church. Did JS put his relationship with HF and Christ "on hold" until he was able to officially organize the Church? Or did he continue to seek to do God's will, even in the absence of a church under which to operate? I think we get it backwards when we think that Christ is dependent upon His church in order to operate in human affairs. It is we who are dependent upon Him.

As for only being able to accept being a part of THE Church, are you also part of THE marriage? My wife is a wonderful woman, but if I ever discovered that she was not true (to me), and who could really blame her, I wouldn't lose my faith in MARRIAGE. I'd be hurt and might even swear off marriage for a time, but eventually I'd get tired of watching what I want to watch on TV, and would look for a new wife to make me watch Downton Abbey with her. On second thought, maybe brittleness isn't all that bad. Hehe

Edited December 19, 2014 by mormonnewb

[pogi]

Why do you think of the Church as being synonymous with the Gospel?

 

What is the gospel?  Faith, repentance, and baptism.

 

A Mormon would have to ask - faith in what?  Trinitarianism?

Repentance for what? Being a Mormon? 

Baptism by what authority?  Catholicism is the only possible option.  No sir, ain't happening, way too much baggage. 

Baptism by what means? Sprinkling?

Baptism into what? One of Christ's many conflicting sects, yet they are all Christ's and in him there is no confusion?

Edited December 19, 2014 by pogi