Why Are We Such Brittle Christians?

[Spammer]

I would not be an atheist either, but what if you lost faith in not only your church but also in trinitarianism and rejected every other creed and perspective of God.  What would you believe?  You see, if you lost faith in Catholicism, you would still maintain your trinitarian views and could maintain some semblance of who and what God is.  Mormons would lose everything.

 

Pogi, that happened to me.  I woke up one morning knowing the LDS Church I was raised in wasn't true.  That knowledge sent me into a tailspin and I became an atheist for a long time.  Reading C.S. Lewis put me back on the Christian path and reading all of the early church fathers, from Clement of Rome (90ad) through Hippolytus of Rome (200 ad) convinced me the church was obviously liturgical and catholic by the end of the 1st Century.  Reading Margaret Barker's books on the Jewish temple roots of the ancient catholic liturgies sealed the deal (ironically, an anonymous online poster who claimed to be a friend of Nibley recommended her work to me, thinking it would help.  It did!, though not the way he expected   ).  I saw no clear evidence of unique LDS doctrines in the ancient writings whatsoever.  To the contrary.  As someone raised in the LDS church, it was shocking to see liturgical worship, ex nihilo creation, and references to the Eucharist everywhere I looked in the most ancient post-Biblical sources.  Uniting myself to that ancient liturgical church seemed the only logical course if I wanted to join a Christian community. 

Edited December 20, 2014 by Spammer

[Spammer]

I respect your beliefs, but respectfully cannot accept the 1 and 3 thing.  I cannot even begin to grasp what you just said.  Without a direct revelation to me, I cannot accept it.

 

I understand.  I've never experienced the presence of God and have never received a revelation, neither in Mormonism nor as an Orthodox Christian.  If God had answered my prayers when I was LDS, things would likely have been different.  I accept the doctrine of the Trinity on the authority of the Church.  I made a decision to put my faith in Christ and united myself to the ancient, catholic tradition based solely on my desire to be a Christian and a careful review of the available evidence from ancient times.  Once I uncovered that evidence, I began to experience an undeniable sense of being pulled in that direction which grew stronger every year.  I interpret that sense of being pulled as the Holy Spirit working on me, so maybe I finally have received some form of revelation, after all.  Your decision is your own and I respect it.  I'm glad you're happy and spiritually filled. 

Edited December 20, 2014 by Spammer

[3DOP]

I would not be an atheist either, but what if you lost faith in not only your church but also in trinitarianism and rejected every other creed and perspective of God.  What would you believe?  You see, if you lost faith in Catholicism, you would still maintain your trinitarian views and could maintain some semblance of who and what God is.  Mormons would lose everything.

I would only be Trinitarian in some sense. Not necessarily Nicene. The Creed depends on the Church. Not so much the truth of God or the Gospel, at least as I understand the Gospel. I would be looking for a Restoration, first exploring those now present that made the claim, and if none seemed credible, I would have to wait. I don't see any explanation for the way the first century unfolded than that Christ really appeared to Saul of Tarsus, and the other Apostles before that. In my opinion. nothing else but the truth of the claims explains so well how the Apostles lived and died, and how their listeners were persuaded.

[pogi]

Pogi, that happened to me.  I woke up one morning knowing the LDS Church I was raised in wasn't true. 

 

I've... never received a revelation, neither in Mormonism nor as an Orthodox Christian.

 

What did you experience that morning if not a revelation?  If it was not from God, how can you trust such "knowledge" given that man's logic is fallible?  It sounds like you had an instant epiphany rather than some reasonable conclusion based on evidence, yet you reject any spiritual manifestation (revelation).

 

Not trying to catch you in anything, but how do you explain your experience of just waking up one day "knowing" that the LDS church was false.  The fact that you became atheist suggests that it was not a spiritual experience, so again how can you trust a non-spiritual epiphany?

Edited December 20, 2014 by pogi

[Spammer]

What did you experience that morning if not a revelation?  If it was not from God, how can you trust such "knowledge" given that man's logic is fallible?  It sounds like you had an instant epiphany rather than some reasonable conclusion based on evidence, yet you reject any spiritual manifestation (revelation).

 

Not trying to catch you in anything, but how do you explain your experience of just waking up one day "knowing" that the LDS church was false.  The fact that you became atheist suggests that it was not a spiritual experience, so again how can you trust a non-spiritual epiphany?

 

Don't ask me.  I'd been extremely stressed out over doctrinal and historical issues (the same ones all over the internet, though this was before the internet) not having my prayers answered after years of trying and one morning I just woke up with that devastating thought in my head - "it isn't true."  I felt it in my bones.  Doubting it felt (and feels) exactly like someone trying to convince me the moon is made of cheese.  I can't explain it.  It just is.

[pogi]

My experience with prayer is so exquisite and profound it is entirely consuming of my faculties and enlightens my mind and fills my heart in light, peace, love and knowledge.  I practice meditative prayer daily and record my experiences and spiritual impressions and manifestations after each session in a prayer journal.  It is my own personal scripture of God's word directly to and for me personally.  I call it the Book of Ryan (that's my name).  I just finished the 3rd Book of Ryan.  Cheesy I know!  The experiences and light that I have been given are so intertwined with the doctrines of the restoration and with my knowledge of Christ that I cannot dissect them.  I cannot reject my experiences, and I cannot reject the words I have written, they are more sacred to me then the Book of Mormon, and Bible combined.  They are consistent with the gospel of Christ and in harmony with his principles.  What is one to do, and where is one to go who has such experience?  To reject such would be to reject myself in many ways.  I cannot do so.

I cannot deny God's presence in my life, I cannot deny my relationship with him, I cannot abandon the clear path he has sent me on.  Remove that path (Mormonism) and all is lost.  It is unimaginable.   3DOP, I hope this helps to understand where I am coming from when I say if you remove Mormonism, you remove everything.  My faith in Christ is entirely intertwined with the gospel of the restoration and is beyond the grasp of reason and logic, I do not believe because it makes sense.  I believe because I have experienced Him and follow his indelible impressions on the tablet of my heart.  I cannot doubt in my path without doubting in the perceived source and guidance on my path - Christ.

Edited December 20, 2014 by pogi

[Calm]

OIn a hierarchy, first I believe in God, then His Son, the Gospel story, then the Church. I would not be an atheist if I somehow lost faith in a church you know I believe in. Maybe this is why you don't like proofs for existence of God and I do? Right or wrong, traditional Christians have something to maintain their faith in God if their church is false. 

I know of Catholics who have become agnostics and atheists though.  They doubt and even have become certain that God does not exist in few cases.

 

The way it is usually described is the evidence against any need for God is there and there is no solid evidence beyond feelings that could be caused our physical surroundings or wishful thinking, etc. for God's existence.

 

Not sure how this is really different from what I've seen where LDS doubt God exists because they distrust their spiritual experience.

Edited December 20, 2014 by calmoriah

[mormonnewb]

What would you turn to mormonnewb? Would you join another sect or would you believe in a non-sectarian Christian spirituality? Being that you are a fairly recent convert, I suspect that it would not be that hard for you to go back to trinitarianism and your familiar old culture and creed.

My problem is that I reject the creeds of sectarian Christianity. I wouldn't even know how to believe in Christ where i reject both the Mormon perspective of Christ and the trinitarian perspective.

You're right. I do have the "advantage" of something to fall back on. I've known CHRIST outside of the context of Mormonism, so I wouldn't feel lost in that way. Also, I see the concept of "church" a little differently than most Mormons. I see the Church as a body of believers in Christ, in the most expansive definition of the term "belief." And to me, the key bond that I have to Mormonism is my bond to the SAINTS. The institution of the Church and its official dogma and doctrine are a source of fascination for me and something to spend a three-hour layover at DFW arguing about. But at the end of the day, I don't see Christ through the lens of the Church. It is through the lens of CHRIST that I attempt to see my fellow saints.

And as for leaving behind the things you love about Mormonism, I don't see why they aren't portable, For example, I'm going back to my black Baptist roots come the new year. I feel called to be in community with those who will be working to make it safe for my teenage sons to survive a traffic stop, which is currently our greatest fear for our boys (living in a gated community of Mormons, we are spared the concerns about gangs or random street crime). But I will take some of the best aspects of Mormonism with me. I will even try to get my Baptist brothers to adopt modified versions of home teaching (being good shepherds), the RS (preparing meals for the sick and elderly), the EQ (helping with moves), etc. On a doctrinal basis, I will probably even take the Mormon vision of seperate personages with me. I won't try to get my triniterian brothers to adopt it because I really don't think that it impacts the "Church" (ie, how we interact with one another).

Interestingly, I could have been perfectly happy to stay in fellowship with the Saints, despite the fact that I think that it's a 50-50 chance that JS made the whole thing up. Because what I love about the Church is NOT the KF discourse. Nor is it apostolic succession or Mormon-specific ordinances. In fact, I suspect that HF looks down at us in the temples and thinks that our work there is "cute." Just as I might think that it's cute that my 5 yo son has crawled underneath his motorized car and is using a plastic screwdriver to make "repairs." Yet, I strongly suspect that He is appreciative of the fact that we are TRYING to bring salvation to our dead. In fact, that is another part of Mormonism that I will take with me -- that I don't achieve salvation all by myself. That my "household" rises and falls together. As Dr. King would say, "We are inextricably linked in a web of mutuality, I can never be all that I was meant to be until you are all that you are meant to be."

In any event, I just don't see the institution of the Church as something that shapes my relationship with divinity. I see it as an instrument through which I can learn to be more Christ-like, by serving those inside and outside of our body of believers. In that sense, whether that institution calls itself Baptist, Catholic or Mormon isn't nearly as important as whether it is a good instrument for our progression.

Edited December 20, 2014 by mormonnewb

[VideoGameJunkie]

I had a faith crisis scare a couple months ago with Joseph Smith's polyandry, and I found out about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and some science buddy tried to disprove and poke holes in the Book of Mormon and I questioned if there's really an afterlife and a loving God waiting for me when I pass on. Because of my mental condition I still sometimes have that fear pop into my head about what if there's nothing. I know that's Satan getting to me because I've felt the spirit during my patriarchal blessing and during a blessing by my Bishop. So If I ever fell away, I would still believe in Heavenly Father and Jesus.

[Spammer]

My experience with prayer is so exquisite and profound it is entirely consuming of my faculties and enlightens my mind and fills my heart in light, peace, love and knowledge. I practice meditative prayer daily and record my experiences and spiritual impressions and manifestations after each session in a prayer journal. It is my own personal scripture of God's word directly to and for me personally. I call it the Book of Ryan (that's my name). I just finished the 3rd Book of Ryan. Cheesy I know! The experiences and light that I have been given are so intertwined with the doctrines of the restoration and with my knowledge of Christ that I cannot dissect them. I cannot reject my experiences, and I cannot reject the words I have written, they are more sacred to me then the Book of Mormon, and Bible combined. They are consistent with the gospel of Christ and in harmony with his principles. What is one to do, and where is one to go who has such experience? To reject such would be to reject myself in many ways. I cannot do so.

I cannot deny God's presence in my life, I cannot deny my relationship with him, I cannot abandon the clear path he has sent me on. Remove that path (Mormonism) and all is lost. It is unimaginable. 3DOP, I hope this helps to understand where I am coming from when I say if you remove Mormonism, you remove everything. My faith in Christ is entirely intertwined with the gospel of the restoration and is beyond the grasp of reason and logic, I do not believe because it makes sense. I believe because I have experienced Him and follow his indelible impressions on the tablet of my heart. I cannot doubt in my path without doubting in the perceived source and guidance on my path - Christ.

Thanks for sharing these personal experiences.

[saemo]

For myself, I am first a Christian because of Christ. He is The Gospel, The Good News. He is my God. My conversion is to Him.

 

  I am second a Catholic, mainly because this is where God led me, and the means by which I was led to Christ. The Sacraments are gifts that I cannot deny, and the Communion of Saints is the big bonus, if you will. Being in God's family is a place I couldn't leave. Like all families we have our extremely spiritual gifted, and our weirdos. Probably I fall in with the latter.

[rodheadlee]

You're right. I do have the "advantage" of something to fall back on. I've known CHRIST outside of the context of Mormonism, so I wouldn't feel lost in that way. Also, I see the concept of "church" a little differently than most Mormons. I see the Church as a body of believers in Christ, in the most expansive definition of the term "belief." And to me, the key bond that I have to Mormonism is my bond to the SAINTS. The institution of the Church and its official dogma and doctrine are a source of fascination for me and something to spend a three-hour layover at DFW arguing about. But at the end of the day, I don't see Christ through the lens of the Church. It is through the lens of CHRIST that I attempt to see my fellow saints.

And as for leaving behind the things you love about Mormonism, I don't see why they aren't portable, For example, I'm going back to my black Baptist roots come the new year. I feel called to be in community with those who will be working to make it safe for my teenage sons to survive a traffic stop, which is currently our greatest fear for our boys (living in a gated community of Mormons, we are spared the concerns about gangs or random street crime). But I will take some of the best aspects of Mormonism with me. I will even try to get my Baptist brothers to adopt modified versions of home teaching (being good shepherds), the RS (preparing meals for the sick and elderly), the EQ (helping with moves), etc. On a doctrinal basis, I will probably even take the Mormon vision of seperate personages with me. I won't try to get my triniterian brothers to adopt it because I really don't think that it impacts the "Church" (ie, how we interact with one another).

Interestingly, I could have been perfectly happy to stay in fellowship with the Saints, despite the fact that I think that it's a 50-50 chance that JS made the whole thing up. Because what I love about the Church is NOT the KF discourse. Nor is it apostolic succession or Mormon-specific ordinances. In fact, I suspect that HF looks down at us in the temples and thinks that our work there is "cute." Just as I might think that it's cute that my 5 yo son has crawled underneath his motorized car and is using a plastic screwdriver to make "repairs." Yet, I strongly suspect that He is appreciative of the fact that we are TRYING to bring salvation to our dead. In fact, that is another part of Mormonism that I will take with me -- that I don't achieve salvation all by myself. That my "household" rises and falls together. As Dr. King would say, "We are inextricably linked in a web of mutuality, I can never be all that I was meant to be until you are all that you are meant to be."

In any event, I just don't see the institution of the Church as something that shapes my relationship with divinity. I see it as an instrument through which I can learn to be more Christ-like, by serving those inside and outside of our body of believers. In that sense, whether that institution calls itself Baptist, Catholic or Mormon isn't nearly as important as whether it is a good instrument for our progression.

So you reject your sealing to your wife for all eternity? You reject the Holy Priesthood of Melchizedek? You reject the Doctrines and Covenants? The Pearl of Great Price? Do you also reject the Book of Mormon? or you're just going under cover and you'll be bringing some of your black brothers with you when you come back? I strongly suggest you read D&C 84. Be careful out there. My 2 cents are that when you reject the Church you are rejecting the works of Jesus Christ.

Edited December 20, 2014 by rodheadlee

[pogi]

But at the end of the day, I don't see Christ through the lens of the Church. It is through the lens of CHRIST that I attempt to see my fellow saints.

 

That's a nice little couplet.  I like the second part a lot, but I don't believe that your religion doesn't shape your perspective of Christ.  For Mormons, the church is not just a "body of believers", it is organization through which Christ directs His people as the head of the Church.  The Church is the body of Christ with Christ as the head.  The perspectives and teachings of the Christ in the Church are given through "the lens of Christ" (revelation).  Because the church is the source of revelation to man, to abandon the church would be to abandon His revelations.  You can't keep the fruits and ditch the tree.  If the fruits (revelations of Christ) are good, so is the tree.

 

I will probably even take the Mormon vision of seperate personages with me.

 

You see though, you do see Christ through the lens of the Church.  You cannot ditch Joseph and keep his vision.  He either saw what he saw, or It is heretical perspective of Christ.

 

In any event, I just don't see the institution of the Church as something that shapes my relationship with divinity.

 

I don't know how you can say that.  Your faith is the direct result of the Church, even before you became a Mormon.  You are indebted to Christ's church for your faith in Christ, for teaching you about the most intimate relationship that you can have with divinity -prayer, for learning of the teachings and revelations of God, you are not a Christian without his Church.  It gave you everything.  The modern church is simply the restored church that you are indebted to for everything.

"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15).

 

And as for leaving behind the things you love about Mormonism, I don't see why they aren't portable,

 

You can take the culture, but you cannot take the revelations and live in spiritual integrity.  They are heretical outside of Mormonsim.  If you reject the church then you reject "the lens of Christ" which made you able to perceive of these fruits which bear testimony of the goodness of the tree.  You cannot graft apples onto an orange tree, the tree (church) will reject it and reject you.

Edited December 20, 2014 by pogi

[pogi]

It just occurred to me that it is perhaps The Book of Mormon and modern day revelation is another reason that makes it difficult for a person to leave Mormonism and remain Christian.  This is because the same spirit which bears witness when reading the Bible bears witness of the Book of Mormon and modern day revelation.  They are equally true through the same spirit to a Mormon.  How can you dissect the Bible from the Book of Mormon and modern day revelation when it is the same spirit that binds them in your heart as true?  If you question the Book of Mormon, you have to question the same spirit that binds the Bible in your heart.  Other sectarians don't have to dissect anything.  It is not a task that one can do with any degree of spiritual integrity.

Edited December 20, 2014 by pogi

[JLHPROF]

For myself, I am first a Christian because of Christ. He is The Gospel, The Good News. He is my God. My conversion is to Him.

 

  I am second a Catholic, mainly because this is where God led me, and the means by which I was led to Christ. The Sacraments are gifts that I cannot deny, and the Communion of Saints is the big bonus, if you will. Being in God's family is a place I couldn't leave. Like all families we have our extremely spiritual gifted, and our weirdos. Probably I fall in with the latter.

 

In order to be a "Christian because of Christ", to understand and be converted to the Good News of Christ's atonement, we need to have beliefs concerning Christ.

Any beliefs concerning Christ come from the religion providing them.  We speak of "nondenominational" Christianity, but in the end, isn't it just another interpretation of who Christ is and what he did for us?

 

I think any separation of our belief in Christ from our religious/Church interpretation of the writings about Christ is largely artificial.

We only know about Christ through the Bible (and any other writings we revere, such as the Book of Mormon).  To believe in Christ without the Bible isn't really possible.  That then requires some kind of interpretation or understanding of what is written about Christ in the Bible.  We call those Mormonism, Catholicism, Evangelicalism, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, or our own non-denom belief.

Either way, whatever your interpretation of those writings, that's your Church/Religion and I don't see how we can separate our Christianity from the interpretation or religion that brings us to Christ..

[Teancum]

I've just heard for the umpteenth time on a podcast about how a committed saint lost his/her faith in the Church upon learning about JS' polyandry.  And, as is almost always the case, the person's loss of faith in the Church resulted in a complete loss of faith in Christ.  And I just don't get it.

 

And let's be clear.  I TOTALLY understand how somehow could lose faith in the Church.  I just don't get throwing out the baby (Jesus) with the polyandry.  In my studies of Mormon history, I've come to believe that there are many parts of our founding narrative that are either misunderstood, exaggerated, whitewashed or just plain not true.  But there is NOTHING that you could tell me about JS, BY, President Monson, my beloved bishop (or even my very own mother) that would cause me to abandon my belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

 

And don't get me wrong.  I'm not claiming that my faith in Christ is bullet-proof.  I could imagine losing faith in Christ if I suffered some horrendous personal tragedy that caused me to doubt the existence of a god or, at least, that a loving god could allow me to experience such pain.  I just can't imagine losing faith in my Savior because I felt lied to by a MAN.

 

Yet, I hear that time and again from Mormons.  They come to the conclusion that JS was not truthful or mistaken and pretty soon, there is no Jesus.  How do these two things become conflated?  After all, JS didn't "discover" Jesus Christ.  Nor did he "invent" the figure of a Savior out of whole cloth.  So even if JS was completely wrong about the Restoration, it wouldn't affect Christ's earthly ministry or any of the marvelous acts attributed to him in the Gospels.  So why is that when someone rejects Mormonism, they so often reject Christ too?

 

To me, it would be like going to the Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter movie and later discovering that it wasn't a "true life story," and then concluding that there must have never been an Abraham Lincoln at all.

 

To my knowledge, this doesn't happen with, say, Lutherans or Calvinists.  I've certainly never heard of anyone learning about Luther's horrifying anti-semitism or his allowing Philip's bigamy and then swearing off the Savior as a "fiction."  Most often, these people don't even consider leaving Lutheranism.  But even if they do decide that they must find a new church, it isn't the Church of Secular Humanism.  They simply move to another sect of Christianity or hope that their new church is slightly less flawed than their old church.

 

But what is it about Mormonism that creates such brittle Christians?  And is there a way to allow saints to come through the furnace of disaffection with their Christianity still largely intact?

 

 

It is quite simple. When one critically examines the LDS Church, its founding claims and history and concludes it is not what it claimed to be then they may decided to investigate Christianity and all religion with the same critical analysis.  At times they then conclude that those are found lacking as well.

 

Many full fledged Christians in many traditions have examined Christianity and ultimately rejected it. They just have one less step than Mormons.

[saemo]

In order to be a "Christian because of Christ", to understand and be converted to the Good News of Christ's atonement, we need to have beliefs concerning Christ.

Any beliefs concerning Christ come from the religion providing them. We speak of "nondenominational" Christianity, but in the end, isn't it just another interpretation of who Christ is and what he did for us?

I think any separation of our belief in Christ from our religious/Church interpretation of the writings about Christ is largely artificial.

We only know about Christ through the Bible (and any other writings we revere, such as the Book of Mormon). To believe in Christ without the Bible isn't really possible. That then requires some kind of interpretation or understanding of what is written about Christ in the Bible. We call those Mormonism, Catholicism, Evangelicalism, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, or our own non-denom belief.

Either way, whatever your interpretation of those writings, that's your Church/Religion and I don't see how we can separate our Christianity from the interpretation or religion that brings us to Christ..

Right, but "true church" as Mormonism teaches is a Mormon thing. As Spammer already said, "true church" for Catholics, Orthodox and most mainline Protestants encompasses all the validly baptized. Protestant denominations of later birth, like Mormonism, have a narrowed view of "church".

And yes, of course, I am Catholic by faith and reason. I have faith in Jesus, and that what is His, is everlasting, including His Church. He is the Church and the Church is Him. The Church is an the image of Christ, and so it lives as Christ lives. I accept this by faith and reason. Christ established His Church for one reason, to bring people to Him. Of course I am brought to Him by His Church. How else would I or anyone else know Him? Jesus didn't establish the New Testament of the Bible in order to know Him. He established a Church. The NT comes from the Church He established, not the other way around.

Anyway, I could be Lutheran or Presbyterian or Orthodox and remain in Christ's Church. But as I said, this is where God led me and I can't deny the experiences that got me here.

Edited December 20, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

Other sectarians don't have to dissect anything. It is not a task that one can do with any degree of spiritual integrity.

I don't agree. An often made argument in Catholic-Protestant discussions is the canon of the Bible. It is was decided by the authority of a Church that Protestants say failed at some point. This is problematic for sola scriptura as the NT itself came from something that existed before it did. Namely, Christ's Church. Mormonism has the same problem, accepting the scriptural canon of two so-called failed testaments not really failed. I see no rhyme or reason to what LDS accept as failed or not failed, other than, if it is Catholic it is failed. Which to me, is not rational.

Edited December 20, 2014 by saemo

[Calm]

" I see no rhyme or reason to what LDS accept as failed or not failed"

 

In general, that which has been revealed as acceptable is accepted, that which has not been revealed at all about is accepted depending on the individual's experience, that which has been revealed as unacceptable is unaccepted.

 

Pretty straightforward.

[pogi]

I'm going back to my black Baptist roots come the new year.

 

As in you are leaving the Church, or you are moving your Mormon self into a black Baptist community?

 

Just curious, do Baptist's have something similar to the "baptism of desire" that the Catholics have or do Baptists reject the Mormon baptism all together giving us no hope for salvation if we die Mormon?  If you maintain your belief of the Mormon Godhead as separate individuals, yet call yourself a Baptist, would you be accepted as a "true" Christian among your Baptist brothers and sisters?  Would you not believe in a "different" Christ as I so often hear?  Seems like an uncomfortable juxtaposition to me.

 

I can only hope for your sake that there is hope for Mormons in the Baptist beliefs.  I could not imagine the turmoil of soul that you would suffer, knowing that the very people that attracted you to Mormonism in the first place - the very people that you served with in the Elders quorum or canned food beside down at the Bishop's store house, and those who served you and your family in Christlike love are hopeless without an authorized Baptist baptism.

[saemo]

" I see no rhyme or reason to what LDS accept as failed or not failed"

In general, that which has been revealed as acceptable is accepted, that which has not been revealed at all about is accepted depending on the individual's experience, that which has been revealed as unacceptable is unaccepted.

Pretty straightforward.

Not really straightforward at all but rather circular.

I accept a Person as God's perfect and full Revelation. I have yet to hear from a Mormon what Jesus left out. What is not perfect about the Revelation of Jesus Christ? What is not fully revealed in Him?

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories.

Edited December 20, 2014 by saemo

[JLHPROF]

Not really straightforward at all but rather circular.

I accept a Person as God's perfect and full Revelation. I have yet to hear from a Mormon what Jesus left out. What is not perfect about the Revelation of Jesus Christ? What is not fully revealed in Him?

I'm not interested in conspiracy theories.

 

Absolutely nothing was left out of Jesus Christ's gospel.  But we don't have all of Jesus Christ's gospel.  No conspiracy theories necessary.

 

John 21:25

"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."

 

Acts 1:3

"To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:"

 

The idea that the BIBLE contains 100% everything of Christianity without any error or missing information is neither biblical OR accurate.  But CHRIST himself was the perfect and full revelation.

[Teancum]

My belief in Christ is so intertwined in Mormon theology that I could not divorce myself from Mormonism and not feel completely lost in terms of who Christ is.  Where is a Mormon to turn?  Are they to turn to a Christ that sends all Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. to hell?  Are they to turn to an incomprehensible Christ of the trinity?  Are they to turn to a Christ that condemns innocent children to hell for not being baptized?  Are they to turn to a Christ that condemns all Mormons (family, friends and associates) to hell?

 

You see, other Christians do not struggle with these same predicaments because they grew up believing all of this already.  They do not need to change from a comprehensible and approachable being to an incomprehensible trinitarian mess.  They don't need to condemn their family and friends to hell because their baptism is acceptable and transferable between sects.  The concept of Christ is transferable between Christian sects for the most part, and where it isn't (JW's) I would suspect that you would see the same phenomenon that you see in Mormonism.

 

If I left Mormonism, I would probably become some independent new age spirituality dude - free from any sect or creed.

 

 

Hmmm me thinks maybe you should explore other Christian doctrines a bit more. They are not all quite the way you portray them. 

[pogi]

Mormonism has the same problem, accepting the scriptural canon of two so-called failed testaments not really failed. I see no rhyme or reason to what LDS accept as failed or not failed, other than, if it is Catholic it is failed. Which to me, is not rational.

 

I don't understand exactly what you mean by "two so-called failed testaments not really failed."  Are you referring to the old and new testaments?  I don't understand what your argument has to do with my statement.  We believe that the Bible contains the word of God, which is determined through the spirit - "he who has eyes to see..."  Our understanding of Biblical truths is both a prophetic process and a personal one.  The same spirit the burns in my heart when I read the Bible burns in my heart when I read the Book of Mormon.  I cannot at this point question one without questioning the spirit.  If I reject the BoM, thereby rejecting the spirit, what leg does the Bible have to stand on when you remove spiritual witness?  I am not interested in the game of secular evidence - it is not convincing enough to me.

[omni]

Anyway, I could be Lutheran or Presbyterian or Orthodox and remain in Christ's Church. But as I said, this is where God led me and I can't deny the experiences that got me here.

If you don't mind sharing, would you say you received a spiritual confirmation of your choice to leave the LDS Church and join the Catholic Church?