Another One Bites the Dust

[readstoomuch]

So today, for the seventh time in the last three years a member of my ward has announced they no longer believe.  This sister is a returned missionary and told me she doesn't believe  Joseph Smith was a prophet and especially has First Vision questions.  She said today will be her last day going to church.  She told quite a few people besides me and I really didn't get to have much of a conversation with her.  Social issues were also brought up.  

Of these seven, 2 are women, the rest men.  The other woman removed her name, but comes to Church sometimes.  One of them men comes to church every week.  Another sometimes.  The others stopped coming to church, two of them being quite angry.  I have had at least something of a discussion with all of them.  My ability to make a difference or help?  Not very much.  

[Calm]

The seeds you may have been able to plant in all probability won't sprout and maybe even flourish for years.  It can take time to move beyond how we see the world now to a place we are open enough to listen to others when they speak of different ideas or beliefs than our own.

[Five Solas]

Of course, I can't speak to your examples nor what you might intend with any "help."  But I can speak to the title of your thread--and it's frickin awesome!!!  You can't go wrong with Queen and the late, great Freddie Mercury.  Consciously or subconsciously you chose to name your thread after a song containing the following lyrics--

 

How do you think I'm going to get along
Without you, when you're gone
You took me for everything that I had
And kicked me out on my own
Are you happy, are you satisfied?
How long can you stand the heat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

I'm quite curious (and perhaps others are too) what you might have intended with this.

--Erik 

[Tacenda]

35 minutes ago, readstoomuch said:

So today, for the seventh time in the last three years a member of my ward has announced they no longer believe.  This sister is a returned missionary and told me she doesn't believe  Joseph Smith was a prophet and especially has First Vision questions.  She said today will be her last day going to church.  She told quite a few people besides me and I really didn't get to have much of a conversation with her.  Social issues were also brought up.  

Of these seven, 2 are women, the rest men.  The other woman removed her name, but comes to Church sometimes.  One of them men comes to church every week.  Another sometimes.  The others stopped coming to church, two of them being quite angry.  I have had at least something of a discussion with all of them.  My ability to make a difference or help?  Not very much.  

Wow, I'd sure have appreciated someone like you. Kudos to you!!  I guarantee you've made a difference, I hope more on this board that are TBM do the same.  I often wonder if my bishop had done more to help or even asked someone in the ward like you, to help, if I'd be like Country Boy right now.

[readstoomuch]

41 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Of course, I can't speak to your examples nor what you might intend with any "help."  But I can speak to the title of your thread--and it's frickin awesome!!!  You can't go wrong with Queen and the late, great Freddie Mercury.  Consciously or subconsciously you chose to name your thread after a song containing the following lyrics--

 

How do you think I'm going to get along
Without you, when you're gone
You took me for everything that I had
And kicked me out on my own
Are you happy, are you satisfied?
How long can you stand the heat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

I'm quite curious (and perhaps others are too) what you might have intended with this.

--Erik 

Nothing in particular was meant by the title, other than so many have had this problem.  They seem to be dropping like flies so to speak.  I liked Another One Bites the Dust, but like many songs from the 70`s I never knew all of the lyrics and have found out that many of them were quite naughty.  I really do feel bad for them and several of these circumstances ended up in a divorce.   

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

 I often wonder if my bishop had done more to help or even asked someone in the ward like you, to help, if I'd be like Country Boy right now.

Why don't you just decide to be like Country Boy? Right now?

[sdc999]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

The seeds you may have been able to plant in all probability won't sprout and maybe even flourish for years.  It can take time to move beyond how we see the world now to a place we are open enough to listen to others when they speak of different ideas or beliefs than our own.

And this may work the other way around as well.  Who's to say that the seeds planted by the first couple that left have now manifested in the last couple that left?  Maybe readstoomuch now has a seed planted way down deep.  Some may say that this is not possible but then that would totally discount Calm's second sentence.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Of course, I can't speak to your examples nor what you might intend with any "help."  But I can speak to the title of your thread--and it's frickin awesome!!!  You can't go wrong with Queen and the late, great Freddie Mercury.  Consciously or subconsciously you chose to name your thread after a song containing the following lyrics--

 

How do you think I'm going to get along
Without you, when you're gone
You took me for everything that I had
And kicked me out on my own
Are you happy, are you satisfied?
How long can you stand the heat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

I'm quite curious (and perhaps others are too) what you might have intended with this.

--Erik 

Um, hate to break it to you, but "another one bites the dust" was a catch-phrase generations before anyone had ever heard of Queen.

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, sdc999 said:

And this may work the other way around as well.  Who's to say that the seeds planted by the first couple that left have now manifested in the last couple that left?  Maybe readstoomuch now has a seed planted way down deep.  Some may say that this is not possible but then that would totally discount Calm's second sentence.

That is where what we choose to nourish comes in. 

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is where what we choose to nourish comes in. 

Very true.  But it's terribly difficult to nourish something you don't know is true. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Very true.  But it's terribly difficult to nourish something you don't know is true. 

 

Quote

 

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

 31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

 32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

 

 

[sdc999]

What I do know is that Christ is True.    My religion is truer than your religion is what has really put people at odds and even wars for many years.  I know a few people that pray earnestly and seek answers way more diligently than I ever have (I do admire them).  They live great christian lives, have great marriages, etc.  So, has the Holy Ghost deceived them of a true answer because the do not believe as you do?

28  ....It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me....

I think this is pretty true of them.  But by the purest of definitions of the LDS church, they are wrong.  

Again,  Christ is True!

[jkwilliams]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

 28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

 29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

 30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.

 31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

 32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

 33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good

For some people, it's not enough just to want to believe. And of course, not everyone finds that participation in the LDS church is "good."

Edited June 13, 2016 by jkwilliams

[stemelbow]

11 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

So today, for the seventh time in the last three years a member of my ward has announced they no longer believe.  This sister is a returned missionary and told me she doesn't believe  Joseph Smith was a prophet and especially has First Vision questions.  She said today will be her last day going to church.  She told quite a few people besides me and I really didn't get to have much of a conversation with her.  Social issues were also brought up.  

Of these seven, 2 are women, the rest men.  The other woman removed her name, but comes to Church sometimes.  One of them men comes to church every week.  Another sometimes.  The others stopped coming to church, two of them being quite angry.  I have had at least something of a discussion with all of them.  My ability to make a difference or help?  Not very much.  

We are losing some of our best.  I guess it may be considered prophesied, no?  Does that mean we can't do anything about it?  I don't think so.  There have always been good people who leave and will continue to be many good people who leave.  We think that it effects their eternity, and it might even in a good way, at least some of the time.  Maybe it's not so sad a thing as we like to think.  Whatever the case, we'd be wise to get a better feel for why people are leaving.  Maybe it's more us, the Church, that needs fixing. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

We are losing some of our best.  I guess it may be considered prophesied, no?  Does that mean we can't do anything about it?  I don't think so.  There have always been good people who leave and will continue to be many good people who leave.  We think that it effects their eternity, and it might even in a good way, at least some of the time.  Maybe it's not so sad a thing as we like to think.  Whatever the case, we'd be wise to get a better feel for why people are leaving.  Maybe it's more us, the Church, that needs fixing. 

Yep. I've had countless people tell me why I left the church, but very few who were actually interesting in hearing my reasons. People assume we're just "patty-cake, taffy pull" lazy folks who, for whatever reason, couldn't hack it as church members. How exactly does that kind of labeling help anyone want to return to activity?

[Tacenda]

There will always be in the back of my mind two families, one in my current ward and one in my old ward who left the church in the last few years.  Or inactive, not sure if they've taken their names off.  Both husbands were very into the church and it's history, one of them named their son Porter after Porter Rockwell, for crying out loud.   

One was a GD teacher and knew everything there was to know about the church, I've been told.  The other family I'm more familiar with.  I worked with the wife in RS, and they both were our Home Teachers at one time.  I use to think the husband was a little on the thinking he was righteous side.  His talks were all that, but it felt like he thought he knew way more than the rest of us and needed to teach us.  This couple were stalwart and would travel to different temples for their anniversary each year.  

Not too long ago my husband and I were on a Sunday walk and we pass by their house and this guy has a tank top on out in his yard.  That was pretty shocking to see after knowing how he was before.  

Yes, the church really should have had better scope where church history was concerned.  I highly doubt these two families issues were over SSM or gay issues.  But maybe I'm assuming too much by thinking it was the history being hidden. 

[Jeanne]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Why don't you just decide to be like Country Boy? Right now?

Because she is not Country Boy.  She will or will not have her own testimony. 

[jkwilliams]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Why don't you just decide to be like Country Boy? Right now?

How would one do that? Are you suggesting people can and should merely decide to set aside all their issues and believe anyway? I don't think that works, most of the time. Or are you saying we should just start labeling anyone who disagrees with us as "negative" and therefore ignore whatever they have to say?

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Because she is not Country Boy.  She will or will not have her own testimony. 

Thanks, I didn't know how to answer why I'm not Country Boy now.  I should have phrased my post better.  

I think I probably would have been fine if I'd never heard another thing after reading about JS's polygamy, and might still be a believer today.  But after reading FairLDS and other internet sites that was impossible.  There was that darn rabbit hole I fell down.  Kind of difficult to climb out of.  The MMM, the ties to Masonry, and on and on.  

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks, I didn't know how to answer why I'm not Country Boy now.  I should have phrased my post better.  

I think I probably would have been fine if I'd never heard another thing after reading about JS's polygamy, and might still be a believer today.  But after reading FairLDS and other internet sites that was impossible.  There was that darn rabbit hole I fell down.  Kind of difficult to climb out of.  The MMM, the ties to Masonry, and on and on.  

I am glad you posted.  I was just going to PM you.  I had no right to answer for you.  It is just that where you land..has to come from you.  Just know I love ya want you to be happy! As far as I am concerned, you are loved no matter what. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks, I didn't know how to answer why I'm not Country Boy now.  I should have phrased my post better.  

I think I probably would have been fine if I'd never heard another thing after reading about JS's polygamy, and might still be a believer today.  But after reading FairLDS and other internet sites that was impossible.  There was that darn rabbit hole I fell down.  Kind of difficult to climb out of.  The MMM, the ties to Masonry, and on and on.  

Yeah, that's me. I tried at least 6 or 7 times to go back and regain my faith, and it just wasn't possible. Even trying to go through the motions just filled me with stress, and I had to let go.

Sometimes I think we must have a masochistic streak in us to keep coming back here. The bottom line seems to be that those who have left are guilty of some personal failing, whether it's "wanting to sin" or "not being like CountryBoy." I often wonder why I keep coming back for more. 

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

Yeah, that's me. I tried at least 6 or 7 times to go back and regain my faith, and it just wasn't possible. Even trying to go through the motions just filled me with stress, and I had to let go.

Sometimes I think we must have a masochistic streak in us to keep coming back here. The bottom line seems to be that those who have left are guilty of some personal failing, whether it's "wanting to sin" or "not being like CountryBoy." I often wonder why I keep coming back for more. 

i so understand.  My trust has been destroyed and I could not sit through it anymore.  Watching others struggle to perfection to something that was not honest was hard to take.

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

i so understand.  My trust has been destroyed and I could not sit through it anymore.  Watching others struggle to perfection to something that was not honest was hard to take.

But it's always your fault, right? You're the one who failed. At least that's how it's been for me.

[Jeanne]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

But it's always your fault, right? You're the one who failed. At least that's how it's been for me.

Oh yeah.  The frustration and inner struggle of it all still remains.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Oh yeah.  The frustration and inner struggle of it all still remains.

Jeanne, it's not your fault, and you did what you felt was right in your gut, I'm assuming.  I believe you and so many others have that inner struggle.  One reason we can't leave the church alone.  And those that leave or resign from the church were some of the most stalwart in the church.  If you were willy nilly I doubt you would have resigned.  You might have just became inactive and probably could care less about the church.  Hopefully I'm not over stepping with all my guessing here.