Terryl Givens Vs. Alister Mcgrath On Doubt

[Hamilton Porter]

Well, I think the Given's would disagree with you. Fiona mentions she hopes the church provides a big tent for people that have questions or doubt, which would include alot of MS fans.

they should all be welcome, it's just hard for me to empathize.

[wenglund]

Well, I think the Given's would disagree with you. Fiona mentions she hopes the church provides a big tent for people that have questions or doubt, which would include alot of MS fans.

 

Fiona may have a warped perception of the Church/gospel--which is about a "narrow way" rather than a "big tent."

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[DBMormon]

Terryl Givens is my most-read author, but I think I'll skip this one and just read Dostoyevsky, from whom the title originates.

thought you were skipping it!

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Scott Lloyd]

What Fiona Givens says is: "My personal feeling is that the Lord wants as many people in his circle of influence as possible, so my feeling is that he wants that umbrella kept as wide as it possibly can be." I don't think it is particularly "warped" to want to see the Church retain—and bless the lives of—as many people as possible.

I agree with this.

 

I do believe, however, that the "big tent" imagery, particularly as it has become more and more pervasive, might convey a false impression about what is accepted or tolerated in terms of sin, dissent, evil speaking of Church leaders, etc. In that sense, I think wenglund has a point about the "strait and narrow way"; hence, my awarding of a rep point to his post.

 

For what it's worth, I'll give you one too.

[stemelbow]

Towards the end the Givens both spoke about how the Church is not superior to others as many LDS tend to paint it. it is merely another appendage for the invisible, near universal Church. While also acknowledging the Church is God's tool to accomplish ordinances (which incidentally, earlier in the interview, Teryl suggests are somewhat arbitrary (?) and in that they carry beauty and meaning--liked how he tied in giving his wife flowers).

I can appreciate their perspective as in many ways it rings good to me.

Edited August 29, 2014 by stemelbow

[SouthBayMC]

Is doubt the opposite of faith?

 

You of little faith, why did you doubt? - Jesus (Mark 14:31)  Doubt is the opposite of faith. In the Bible, doubt and faith are used as opposites repeatedly. Some examples include:

 

Matt. 21:21 - "if you have faith, and do not doubt"

Mark 11:23 - "does not doubt, but believes..."

Rom. 14:23 - "he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because not from faith"

James 1:6 - "ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea driven and tossed by the wind."

Mormon 9:27 - “doubt not but be believing”  (note: I realize that faith & belief are different).

 

Quotations on doubt --

A. Chinese proverb - "With great doubts come great understanding; with little doubts come little

         understanding."

    B. French proverb - "Only the one who knows nothing doubts nothing."

    C. Blaise Pascal - "One must know when it is right to doubt, to affirm, to submit. Anyone who

          does otherwise does not understand the force of reason."

    D. Francis Bacon - "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be

         content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties."

    E. Martin Luther - "Knowledge and doubt are inseparable to man. The sole alternative to

         "knowledge-with-doubt" is no knowledge at all. Only God and certain madmen have no

          doubts!"

    F. Alfred Lord Tennyson - "There lives more faith in honest doubt, Believe me, than in half the

         creeds."

    G. George MacDonald - "Doubt can be a tool in God's hand weilded, in the lives of those who

          allow it, for the strengthening, not the destruction of faith."

    H. C. S. Lewis - "If ours is an examined faith, we should be unafraid to doubt. If doubt is

           eventually justified, we were believing what clearly was not worth believing. But if doubt is

           answered, our faith has grown stronger. It knows God more certainly and it can enjoy God

           more deeply."

[Scott Lloyd]

Towards the end the Givens both spoke about how the Church is not superior to others as many LDS tend to paint it. it is merely another appendage for the invisible, near universal Church. While also acknowledging the Church is God's tool to accomplish ordinances (which incidentally, earlier in the interview, Teryl suggests are somewhat arbitrary (?) and in that they carry beauty and meaning--liked how he tied in giving his wife flowers).

I can appreciate their perspective as in many ways it rings good to me.

I wonder if you could transcribe that portion of the podcast for us. I ask, because the message, as you render it here, seems at odds with what Givens himself wrote in an entry on Mormons as a contributor to World Book Encyclopedia (online, student edition) to wit:

 

Mormons is the name commonly given to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They believe that the church as established by Christ did not survive in its original form and was restored in modern times by divine means through a modern prophet, Joseph Smith. Thus, they believe their church is the true and complete church of Jesus Christ restored on Earth.

Now, maybe I'm not grasping something here, but it seems to me that being the true and complete church of Jesus Christ restored on earth makes it superior to other churches professing to follow Christ, at least in that regard.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

I wonder if you could transcribe that portion of the podcast for us. I ask, because the message, as you render it here seems at odds with what Givens himself wrote in an entry on Mormons as a contributor to World Book Encyclopedia (online, student edition) to wit:

Now, maybe I'm not grasping something here, but it seems to me that being the true and complete church of Jesus Christ restored on earth makes it superior to other churches professing to follow Christ, at least in that regard.

Fiona: “what this chapter speaks to me is that we do not have a monopoly on truth and that’s really really important because I keep hearing people standing up and saying “we are the only true church”. And and and that would make God an incredible favoritist, if there is such a word (my word document is saying it is not). You know we are a community of what? A few million? And there are billions of people on earth and yet we’re the only ones that have the repository of truth, it makes absolutely no sense. I have traveled most of the globe, I have seen beautiful Christ-like men and women of myriad faith traditions. I think I was just reading in Alma 5 and pretty much, I can’t find it now, but he said everything that persuadeth us to do good is of God. Once you um, open the category to that, then all of the faith traditions and all of the peoples of different cultures are now involved in this process of moving the great work of God and goodness throughout the world. And this is what we were really trying to do in this chapter. And also talking about the $@#$%*(& onamala (couldn’t make it out, sorry) I think that’s what we’re talking about in this chapter as well, the church without walls. And then there is this scripture, um, that Teryl happened upon and it’s absolutely beautiful, darling can you comment on that it’s D&C 10:53-55…

Teryl: “uh D&C 10 which is remarkably enough given in 1829 before the organization of the Church we’re beginning in about verse 52, the Lord through Joseph Smith is expressing concern for those members of His Church who might be threatened or offended by the restoration. So it’s clear that He considers there is a Church that is not comprised in the institutional framework of the Church, so even in Joseph Smith’s revelations you find very firmly entrenched this notion of the invisible Church or universal Church that transcends any particular denominational boundaries. And so we just think that’s a lovely allusion that the LORD is making there to people He considers His beloved people who are not Mormons.

John: “And and yet there’s…so I love there’s clearly a universalistic impulse in this chapter I think it’s sorely needed. I celebrate it. And the only thing I’d say is there’s a difference in saying “we’re the best, and yet others have some truth”. And that stops short of where I’m comfortable. Where my egalitarian sort of impulses want to go is sort of where Elder Wirthlin went in one of the talks he gave before he past which was, You know what if every faith tradition and what if even the atheists and the agnostics what if we’re all part of this beautiful orchestra and just like the hand cannot say to the foot I have no need of thee. What if we’re all in some quasi-egalitarian way all God’s children and nobody can say they’re better. Because just saying that we have all the truth but they have some truth, that’s almost a bit of err…it’s not as important to me as to say we’re all legitimate children of God and nobody can say they are superior. I’m I going too far, or…

Fiona: “no no, John, You have hit the nail, right on the head. I mean you have said it absolutely eloquently. That’s exactly what we’re saying in this chapter. We are all God’s children.

Teryl: “I think…part of what we’re trying to do was shift the discourse from emphasizing truth because the Church, the Latter-day Saints don’t even have all the truth. Right? I mean clearly. Joseph Smith said, there are many things yet to be revealed..uh. we think when that expression “the true Church” is used what it has reference to is the fact that the LORD has designated this particular institution and it’s people to be the guardians of the temple ordinances that serve as the portal to salvation, but it is not the reservoir of the righteous. So there’s no monopoly on truth, but there is an important role the church plays relative to priesthood keys and ordinances

John: “But not a superior status to other traditions?”

Fiona: “Absolutely not”

Teryl: “nah..no”

I would just add saying that members believe their Church is the true and complete church of Jesus Christ restored on Earth does not suggest the Givens' also believe that.

[Scott Lloyd]

Fiona: “what this chapter speaks to me is [snip] ....

 

 

Thank you for your efforts in transcribing this.

 

I would just add saying that members believe their Church is the true and complete church of Jesus Christ restored on Earth does not suggest the Givens' also believe that.

 

 

So you're saying that Givens, in effect, is disavowing what he wrote in the World Book Encyclopedia entry?

[Scott Lloyd]

Thank you for your efforts in transcribing this.

 

So you're saying that Givens, in effect, is disavowing what he wrote in the World Book Encyclopedia entry?

By the way, this isn't the first instance in which Givens has expressed this thought orally.

 

Please see my report of a speech he gave back in March at the Church History Symposium at BYU. Note the paragraphs near the end of the article about the speech, in which Givens arguably expressed the idea better than he did in the Dehlin interview.

[stemelbow]

Thank you for your efforts in transcribing this.

It was fun. No problem.

 

So you're saying that Givens, in effect, is disavowing what he wrote in the World Book Encyclopedia entry?

Not at all. I'm saying that which was said in the World Book is describing what Latter-day Saints believe. Nothing more.

Thanks for the report. I'll give it a go when I get a minute more.

[Scott Lloyd]

It was fun. No problem.

 

Not at all. I'm saying that which was said in the World Book is describing what Latter-day Saints believe. Nothing more.

 

Presumably, he was describing what he understands to be the orthodox position of the Church, which would be a responsible thing for a person in Givens's position to do when faced with a task such as this (writing an entry on "Mormons" for a general-circulation encyclopedia). In fact, I as I read the entry, I was highly impressed with its accuracy and fairness. Then I saw that Givens was the author, and I said to myself, "No wonder."

 

But you appear to be implying that, having expressed that orthodox position, he is now publicly opposing it. I think it more likely that you are misunderstanding him.

 

 

Thanks for the report. I'll give it a go when I get a minute more.

 

The speech was delivered at a symposium co-sponsored by BYU and the Church History Department. And my report appeared on the official Church wesbsite and in a Church-correlated print and online publication. Which is why I deem it unlikely that Givens would be expressing a position in opposition to Church orthodoxy.

[stemelbow]

Presumably, he was describing what he understands to be the orthodox position of the Church, which would be a responsible thing for a person in Givens's position to do when faced with a task such as this (writing an entry on "Mormons" for a general-circulation encyclopedia). In fact, I as I read the entry, I was highly impressed with its accuracy and fairness. Then I saw that Givens was the author, and I said to myself, "No wonder."

 

But you appear to be implying that, having expressed that orthodox position, he is now publicly opposing it. I think it more likely that you are misunderstanding him.

I don't mean to. I merely reported what I heard from his recent interview, not paying much attention to what he had written in the encyclopedia. You brought that quote to question whether what I had reported conflicted. I'm not sure it does, but it seems like you thought it might.

 

 

The speech was delivered at a symposium co-sponsored by BYU and the Church History Department. And my report appeared on the official Church wesbsite and in a Church-correlated print and online publication. Which is why I deem it unlikely that Givens would be expressing a position in opposition to Church orthodoxy.

I hope he's not inconsistent depending on who he's talking to. We all do that, I guess, so I could give him some slack.

[DBMormon]

Terryl Givens to be on MormonDiscussion Podcast - What questions do you have?

 

I am interviewing Terryl & Fiona Givens next week.  I will talking about their book the Crucible of Doubt but also sprinkling in a few other questions.  I would be interested in what questions you would like me to ask.  I realize they have done AMA (ask me anything) on Reddit and have addressed issues on Radio West and Mormon Stories.  I do not neceassarily want to rehash those questions but rather am looking for questions that address the struggle of doubt and the doubters perceptions from a different angle.  What would you like to ask them?  

[Hamilton Porter]

Terryl Givens to be on MormonDiscussion Podcast - What questions do you have?

 

I am interviewing Terryl & Fiona Givens next week.  I will talking about their book the Crucible of Doubt but also sprinkling in a few other questions.  I would be interested in what questions you would like me to ask.  I realize they have done AMA (ask me anything) on Reddit and have addressed issues on Radio West and Mormon Stories.  I do not neceassarily want to rehash those questions but rather am looking for questions that address the struggle of doubt and the doubters perceptions from a different angle.  What would you like to ask them?  

 

 

I'd like to ask them about this line from The God Who Weeps. 

 

The new sensibility began innocently enough with the lyrical expression of William Blake, who suggested that God might be better found in the solitary contemplation of nature than in the crowded pews of churches. It took a Marxist critic, Terry Eagleton, to point out that the gospel of Matthew teaches us that 'Eternity lies not in a grain of sand but in a glass of water. The cosmos reolves on comforting the sick. When you act in this way, you are sharing in the love which built the stars.' (103)

 

Since unraveling nature through science has long been considered a form of worship ("The heavens declare the glory of God" Ps. 19:1), like (my hero!) John Dehlin, can you make sure that your audience knows you are not a science hater?