Are we really in a new era of doubt as Stack claims?

[sjdawg]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

This would be an interesting new thread 😊

I have 5 siblings and I am the only one who is still attending church.  We are multi generational pioneer Mormons (both sides), all married in the temple and all 3 brothers served missions.  We all married in the temple.  5 out of 6 no longer believe and all but one of their spouses are out now too.  They are all wonderful, successful, great people.  But I'm sad and my parents are heartbroken.  However, all my siblings seem very happy and their kids are doing well too.

My husband has 2 siblings and they are both out of the church now too.  One of their spouses still attends; one nephew who plans on serving a mission, and a niece is at BYU-I.  All other nieces and nephews (mostly young adults) are not attending anymore either.

If you'd told me this would happen even 5 years ago, I'd say you were crazy!  All left over learning about church history info that they'd never heard about when we were growing up.  They read more and decided the church wasn't what they'd thought it was 😒

 

 

For our families my 2 siblings have been out of the church for probably 15 years now.   We left the church about 6 years ago, and my wife's family members left about 4-5 years ago.  All seem to have studied and decided they learned new things and determined the Church wasn't their own path to happiness.   On the flip side there are also some very well read people in the family who have learned the same things and decided to stay in the church.   I don't think there is any discernible difference on who is happier - those in the church or those out of the Church.  Everyone has followed their own conscience and tried to make the decision that is right for them.

[JulieM]

19 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I just did a search on LDS.org for conference talks on "Doubt"....there has definitely been an upward spike in the last 5 years, if everything is hunky dorrie as Scott Lloyd claims why the need to speak on doubts, why all the rescue firesides throughout the world (Sweden and Boise come to mind) if doubt is minimal, why all the new Deseret Books releases on how to over come doubt....each of these trends seem unnecessary if things are as Scott claims. Seems all of this things are happening due to the church recognizing more doubt causing believing members to disengage from the church ... These tends are not happening in a vacuum...they're the result of more doubt not less

I don't live in Utah, but reading more of Scott Lloyd's posts tonight leads me to believe he's in SLC, correct?  Maybe he's not seeing these things happening where he lives.  Each of us are posting about our own experiences in our wards and areas because that's what we see and know.

There definitely seems to be areas that are affected more than other areas.  But I know that more are feeling doubts and asking questions within my ward and family.  That's all I can report or speak to with any familiarity.

Edited February 16, 2016 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

52 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I just did a search on LDS.org for conference talks on "Doubt"....there has definitely been an upward spike in the last 5 years, if everything is hunky dorrie as Scott Lloyd claims why the need to speak on doubts, why all the rescue firesides throughout the world (Sweden and Boise come to mind) if doubt is minimal, why all the new Deseret Books releases on how to over come doubt....each of these trends seem unnecessary if things are as Scott claims. Seems all of this things are happening due to the church recognizing more doubt causing believing members to disengage from the church ... These tends are not happening in a vacuum...they're the result of more doubt not less

I never said there weren't challenges to be dealt with, just that the Church is not on the verge of collapse, as some would have us believe.

The so-called "Boise rescue" had nothing to do with members leaving the Church because of their doubts. It was a problem with some members in the area going off on weird tangents -- so-called "preppers" -- and trying to blend their fanaticism with gospel principles and beliefs. That's not the same thing.

And I already mentioned Sweden earlier. My eldest son is a missionary there now, and he has never mentioned anything about the Latter-day Saints there leaving the Church in epidemic proportions because of their doubts. In fact, the Church is stronger there now than it was when I was a missionary there 40 years ago.

If you're seeing "an upward spike" in references in general conference, maybe it's simply indicative of the attitude Elder Cook expressed:

Quote

Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, “remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.”²⁵ We reach out to everyone.

 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[sjdawg]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

I never said there weren't challenges to be dealt with, just that the Church is not on the verge of collapse, as some would have us believe.

The so-called "Boise rescue" had nothing to do with members leaving the Church because of their doubts. It was a problem with some members in the area going off on weird tangents -- so-called "preppers" -- and trying to blend their fanaticism with gospel principles and beliefs. That's not the same thing.

And I already mentioned Sweden earlier. My eldest son is a missionary there now, and he has never mentioned anything about leaving the Church in epidemic proportions because of their doubts. In fact, the work is progressing better than it was when I was a missionary there 40 years ago.

Who has said the Church is on the verge of collapse?  This is the first I have heard of that

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I don't live in Utah, but reading more of Scott Lloyd's posts tonight leads me to believe he's in SLC, correct?  Maybe he's not seeing these things happening where he lives.  Each of us are posting about our own experiences in our wards and areas because that's what we see and know.

There definitely seems to be areas that are affected more than other areas.  But I know that more are feeling doubts and asking questions within my ward and family.  That's all I can report or speak to with any familiarity.

That was the point I was making earlier. Those who are making doomsday predictions about where the Church is headed have been basing it on anecdotal observation. Elder Cook informed us a year ago, based on "demonstrably measurable" indicators that the Church "has never been stronger."

Here is the quote again:

 

Quote

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Has Never Been Stronger

We recognize that some members have questions and concerns as they seek to strengthen their faith and testimonies. We should be careful not to be critical or judgmental of those with concerns—great or small. At the same time, those with concerns should do everything they can to build their own faith and testimony. Patiently and humbly studying, pondering, praying, living gospel principles, and counseling with appropriate leaders are the best ways to resolve questions or concerns.

Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past. This is simply not true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger. The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past.²⁴ The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic. Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, “remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.”²⁵ We reach out to everyone.

 

 

[JulieM]

25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Where -- specifically or generally -- do you live, JulieM?

Hi Hamba, thanks for asking.   I live in the U.S. (out east).

(I should add that the rest of my family are out west where I grew up.)

Edited February 16, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That was the point I was making earlier. Those who are making doomsday predictions about where the Church is headed have been basing it on anecdotal observation. Elder Cook informed us a year ago, based on "demonstrably measurable" indicators that the Church "has never been stronger."

Here is the quote again:

 

 

Thanks for posting this Scott.  It gives me hope and I love Elder Cook's positive words of love and encouragement.

I have to say though that my own personal experience doesn't reflect what he's reporting.   I hope overall (world wide), he's still correct.  I just see many with doubts and questions.  Some still active but struggling, some are semi-active or some completely out (family and ward).  It does seem to be accelerating but that may just be my current view which I hope will change or turn around.  

[sunstoned]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That was the point I was making earlier. Those who are making doomsday predictions about where the Church is headed have been basing it on anecdotal observation. Elder Cook informed us a year ago, based on "demonstrably measurable" indicators that the Church "has never been stronger."

Here is the quote again:

 

 

Did Elder Cook ever produce the demonstrably measurable figures to back this claim?  

 

[Johnnie Cake]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I never said there weren't challenges to be dealt with, just that the Church is not on the verge of collapse, as some would have us believe.

The so-called "Boise rescue" had nothing to do with members leaving the Church because of their doubts. It was a problem with some members in the area going off on weird tangents -- so-called "preppers" -- and trying to blend their fanaticism with gospel principles and beliefs. That's not the same thing.

And I already mentioned Sweden earlier. My eldest son is a missionary there now, and he has never mentioned anything about leaving the Church in epidemic proportions because of their doubts. In fact, the work is progressing better than it was when I was a missionary there 40 years ago.

Well anyone who believes that the church is on the verge of collapse is a fool...

[sjdawg]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That was the point I was making earlier. Those who are making doomsday predictions about where the Church is headed have been basing it on anecdotal observation. Elder Cook informed us a year ago, based on "demonstrably measurable" indicators that the Church "has never been stronger."

 

 

 

Just to play Devil's advocate it is a organizational leaders job to project that their organization is strong and healthy.   I would expect nothing less from Elder Cook.   Heck, even Jeffrey Skilling said that Enron was the finest corporation in the world and that they were strong in all their major lines of business.

I don't mean to suggest that Elder Cook isn't light years ahead of Skilling in terms of honesty and integrity.  I purposely tried to find the most outlandish example possible.   In no way do I think the LDS Church is on the verge of collapse and I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of Elder Cook's comments.   I'm only suggesting he is doing his job when he is portraying the organization in the most positive light possible.

 

[Thinking]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In this case, the reservoir and dam have gotten larger while the leak has stayed the same or diminished.

Quote

Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!  2 Nephi 28:24-25

 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Just to play Devil's advocate it is a organizational leaders job to project that their organization is strong and healthy.   I would expect nothing less from Elder Cook.   Heck, even Jeffrey Skilling said that Enron was the finest corporation in the world and that they were strong in all their major lines of business.

I don't mean to suggest that Elder Cook isn't light years ahead of Skilling in terms of honesty and integrity.  I purposely tried to find the most outlandish example possible.   In no way do I think the LDS Church is on the verge of collapse and I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of Elder Cook's comments.   I'm only suggesting he is doing his job when he is portraying the organization in the most positive light possible.

 

I find that when one purports to be "playing devil's advocate," it is wise to consider the source.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Thinking said:

 

The context of that quotation is latter-day apostasy and the rise of false churches in the last days.

If you are applying that to Elder Cook, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, all I can say is, "Oh my!"

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Did Elder Cook ever produce the demonstrably measurable figures to back this claim?  

 

He said, "The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic."

Do you have good reason to suggest he's lying about this? Let's see it.

[sunstoned]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He said, "The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic."

Do you have good reason to suggest he's lying about this? Let's see it.

I made no such suggestion. I simply wanted to know if these demonstrably measurable results had been made public.  Apparently not.

[Thinking]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

From Elder Cook's general conference sermon last year:

Quote

Some have asserted that more members are leaving the Church today and that there is more doubt and unbelief than in the past. This is simply not true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been stronger. The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church has always been very small and is significantly less in recent years than in the past.²⁴The increase in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic. Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, “remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.”²⁵ We reach out to everyone.

(Emphasis mine)

Suppose I refuted Elder Cook's claims with this.

Quote

Some church leaders have asserted that fewer members are leaving the Church today and that there is less doubt and unbelief than in the past. This is simply not true. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never been weaker. The number of members removing their names from the records of the Church is significantly more in recent years than in the past.  The decrease in demonstrably measurable areas, such as endowed members with a current temple recommend, adult full-tithe payers, and those serving missions, has been dramatic. Let me say again, the Church has never been weaker.

The appeal for CFRs would be almost instantaneous. Just sayin'...

[Nevo]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And I already mentioned Sweden earlier. My eldest son is a missionary there now, and he has never mentioned anything about leaving the Church in epidemic proportions because of their doubts. In fact, the work is progressing better than it was when I was a missionary there 40 years ago.

You keep mentioning this whenever someone brings up the "Swedish Rescue." It's great that the Church is holding steady now in Sweden (if that is the case), but the number of disaffected Swedish Saints was significant enough in 2010 that the Church sent the Church Historian and Assistant Church Historian to conduct a special fireside (which didn't seem to go very well). This was around the time that former Area Seventy Hans Mattsson was holding discussion groups with some 600 questioning members. In 2012, Elder Jensen sent Swedish leaders a 30-page document (titled "The Swedish Rescue") detailing strategies for dealing with doubting members. So something was clearly going on there in the not-too-distant past.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Nevo

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

Suppose I refuted Elder Cook's claims with this.

The appeal for CFRs would be almost instantaneous. Just sayin'...

I've made this point before, but Elder Cook's remarks were made by way of assurance and encouragement to a friendly audience, people who love and trust him, of which I am one.

I don't think he was trying to win a debate. That's not the purpose of a general conference sermon.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[sunstoned]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I've made this point before, but Elder Cook's remarks were made by way of assurance and encouragement to a friendly audience, people who love and trust him, of which I am one.

He also made a claim, and if this claim correct it seems there should be no reason not to back it up with the facts.  My guess is that if the data was faith promoting it would have been made public.

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, Nevo said:

You keep mentioning this whenever someone brings up the "Swedish Rescue." It's great that the Church is holding steady now in Sweden (if that is the case), but the number of disaffected Swedish Saints was significant enough in 2010 that the Church sent the Church Historian and Assistant Church Historian to conduct a special fireside (which didn't seem to go very well). This was around the time that former Area Seventy Hans Mattsson was holding discussion groups with some 600 questioning members. In 2012, Elder Jensen sent Swedish leaders a 30-page document (titled "The Swedish Rescue") detailing strategies for dealing with doubting members. So something was clearly going on there in the not-too-distant past.

Elder Cook said, "Let me say again, the Church has never been stronger. But, 'remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.'²⁵ We reach out to everyone." (emphasis mine).

What he said in the bolded portion is reason enough for the Church to have taken steps to rescue those who were having problems, even if they constituted a somewhat isolated pocket within the broader population.

You mention Hans Mattsson. On New Year's Eve, our son was among missionaries who were entertained at the home of his twin brother, Leif and their family. While staying up on New Year's Eve playing board games, our family was delighted to receive from Leif some emailed digital images of our son and their New Year's Eve celebration. I wrote back to him in Swedish to thank him. He responded. Over the next couple of days we corresponded in Swedish. He is a wonderful man, a former stake president, still very stalwart in the Church with a strong testimony of the gospel, the sort of valiant member you would hope your missionary son would be exposed to and influenced by.

Just saying, apparently not everyone there got caught up in the wave of Dehlinism that hopefully has blown over by now.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

He also made a claim, and if this claim correct it seems there should be no reason not to back it up with the facts.  My guess is that if the data was faith promoting it would have been made public.

So you're guessing he was lying.

That and a buck fifty won't even buy a hot chocolate at Starbucks these days.

Whatever Elder Cook said, it is more solid than anything from those who are making extrapolations based on anecdotal observation.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[sjdawg]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Just saying, apparently not everyone there got caught up in the wave of Dehlinism that hopefully has blown over by now.

Why drag Dehlin into this?   

[sjdawg]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Whatever Elder Cook said, it is more solid than anything from those who are making extrapolations based on anecdotal observation.

In the absence of any firm statistics from either side there is really no way to judge that.  If you are basing it on your trust of Elder Cook as a person that is fine.  I agree he should be in a position to know however he didn't share anything concrete to back up his claim nor do I think it was necessary given the purpose/audience of his talk

Edited February 16, 2016 by sjdawg

[rodheadlee]

What is the point of this thread, I forget. The doubters doubting the doubter's article on doubting?

[ALarson]

7 hours ago, sunstoned said:

He also made a claim, and if this claim correct it seems there should be no reason not to back it up with the facts.  My guess is that if the data was faith promoting it would have been made public.

This is how I feel too.  No one is accusing anyone of lying (certainly not Elder Jensen or Elder Cook).  But the church does not release the stats regarding church resignations and until they do, all any of us can go on is what is happening within our own circles (wards, families, friends).  And, I see a lot of doubt and a lot of members leaving and taking entire families with them.  I have not known many who have actually resigned though, so those numbers may not be reflecting what is actually happening.

.

 

Edited February 16, 2016 by ALarson