Of Faith, Trials, The Holy Ghost And Testimony

[Kenngo1969]

Sorry, Fly.  Remember: "Not all who wander are lost."  We can fervently hope and pray for certain blessings, and I think God might even earnestly desire to give them to us, but the one thing even He cannot do is override someone else's agency/free will.  I'm not comparing our respective trials in any way (I can only speak to what I know).  As much as I've wanted a job, I couldn't ask God to override an employer's agency to hire the person he felt was the most qualified candidate.  As much as I might want a family, another person must choose to use her agency to explore the possibility of pursuing an eternal relationship with me.

[Flyonthewall]

Sorry, Fly.  Remember: "Not all who wander are lost."  We can fervently hope and pray for certain blessings, and I think God might even earnestly desire to give them to us, but the one thing even He cannot do is override someone else's agency/free will.  I'm not comparing our respective trials in any way (I can only speak to what I know).  As much as I've wanted a job, I couldn't ask God to override an employer's agency to hire the person he felt was the most qualified candidate.  As much as I might want a family, another person must choose to use her agency to explore the possibility of pursuing an eternal relationship with me.

I would have been fine with an "attaboy" or a "peace be unto you", or "this too shall pass", something, anything, but silence. Silence is so ... deafening, lonely, and out-casting.

[JLHPROF]

I would have been fine with an "attaboy" or a "peace be unto you", or "this too shall pass", something, anything, but silence. Silence is so ... deafening, lonely, and out-casting.

 

Might I be so bold as to recommend a fast, possibly an extended one.

Sometimes it has been the only way I've been able to get a response.

[CCRW]

was there ever a time you felt you got answers and/or that the spirit was close?

[Flyonthewall]

Might I be so bold as to recommend a fast, possibly an extended one.

Sometimes it has been the only way I've been able to get a response.

Unfortunately I am diabetic so from dinner to breakfast is about as long as I can fast without adverse health issues.

[CCRW]

well, I'm that last one to be giving any advice here ... if you wanted to try something ... wait until the wife is gone or out for the night.  Forget the knees and hard floors, you need to get comfortable, open a prayer and concentrate on clearing your mind of all thoughts.  This for me was hard to do and takes time. then just listen.

 

This worked for me for years, and yet when the silence came for me, it also lasted for years.  Now I'm feeling drawn to it again.  Do you feel drawn to it from time to time?

[Flyonthewall]

was there ever a time you felt you got answers and/or that the spirit was close?

Yes. I am a BIC, returned missionary, temple married, very staunch believer. I felt I received an answer to prayer to adopt my youngest 3 kids. It is when issues arose with my adopted kids that I started to feel alone, abandoned, on my own.

I know what the Sprit feels like. I have experienced it. It has been absent for a long time.

When I knocked, it was not opened. When I asked, I was not answerd. When I sought, I did not find.

[Flyonthewall]

well, I'm that last one to be giving any advice here ... if you wanted to try something ... wait until the wife is gone or out for the night.  Forget the knees and hard floors, you need to get comfortable, open a prayer and concentrate on clearing your mind of all thoughts.  This for me was hard to do and takes time. then just listen.

 

This worked for me for years, and yet when the silence came for me, it also lasted for years.  Now I'm feeling drawn to it again.  Do you feel drawn to it from time to time?

I do not like being where I am right now, I want it to be better, but after years of the silent treatment, why should I expect it to be any different?

[Flyonthewall]

I apologize for the downturn on the thread. I know that the Lord can find me, and hope He does so.... the sooner the better.

[CCRW]

When I knocked, it was not opened. When I asked, I was not answerd. When I sought, I did not find.

 

Man do I know that one. I can not answer to it. Nor why you should expect different.  I've swung almost to atheist over this.  And yet with the feeling of being drawn of late I fear to pray as suggested, feeling that the voices would flood back in, I will error again and the pain of the silence is just too much.  Sounds crazy I suppose but I fear he will answer after all these years. 

[Avatar4321]

I do not like being where I am right now, I want it to be better, but after years of the silent treatment, why should I expect it to be any different?

Because He wants us to live on faith. I was reading Ether this morning and the Lord wants us all to pierce the veil of unbelief.

[CCRW]

I apologize for the downturn on the thread. I know that the Lord can find me, and hope He does so.... the sooner the better.

 

not at all man.  hey join us down in social, lets talk

[Avatar4321]

I apologize for the downturn on the thread. I know that the Lord can find me, and hope He does so.... the sooner the better.

No need to apologize. We are discussing trials.

I've been thinking a lot about sections 121 and 122 lately

[mormonnewb]

THIS is what we need in our Church!  REAL saints dealing with REAL problems, humbly and faithfully.  Perhaps, it's just my ward but I NEVER see this candor in my local ward, which is part of what makes it so hard for me to fully embrace this version of the Gospel; at least, not as being an option for ME.  Because I simply don't ever see myself in the people who get up and sing the Lego Movie theme song at every F&T meeting ("Everything is awesome! ...."). Being the ultimate doubting Thomas, I need to see your "wounds" because I don't follow anyone who doesn't walk with at least a little bit of a limp.

 

And while just about all saints will admit to "not being perfect," very few will ever name their perfections.  For example, I was teaching an EQ lesson on repentance.  I ask the guys if anyone in the room was in need of repentance for a recent sin.  Everyone raised their hands.  I then asked if someone would be willing to tell me what sin they had committed that required repentance.  This was about two months ago and I'll let all of you know when I hear back from the first responder.

 

How is our church supposed to be a hospital when no one will admit what ails them?  In the natural world, this is obviously absurd.  No one would show up to a hospital for treatment and then swear up and down that they felt just fine and start rattling off all the places that DON'T hurt.  But we seem to want to do that in Church.  Just about every F&T, some saint will stand at the pulpit and run through the laundry of things that are going well in their lives (e.g., kids getting married in the temple, going on missions, etc.).  And I'm tempted to shout, "Who cares?"  Not to be rude or because I'm envious of their blessings, but rather that I don't need to know how to praise HF when my bank balance is high, or when my wife and I are getting along, or when the kids are all doing what they are supposed to do.  I need to know how to praise Him when all hell is breaking loose.  I need to know how to praise Him even when it seems that He has forsaken me ... to know how to believe when it all seems so unbelievable ... and so on (sorry, the Baptist in me started taking over for a minute).

 

And I wonder why we have such an aversion to being vulnerable with fellow saints.  Is it because we think they will judge us and perhaps, pull away from us?  I'm new around here, so maybe that is the case.  But with me, that vulnerability has just the opposite effect.  I was genuinely touched by Ken's story and we have had one or two TINY disagreements on this board.  But now, after being touched by his honesty, I won't call him racist nearly as much as I used to (although I'm not making any promises).  Seriously, I have so much more respect for his faith in this Gospel because I now see that it has been tested.  In fact, it makes me think, "If he can maintain his faith after dealing with real affliction, then maybe I can drop my objections to the phrasing of the fourth paragraph in the blacks and priesthood essay." (once again, no promises)

[Raingirl]

For the past few years of my life (basically since I returned from my mission) I have felt cut off from the Lord. Many times I have felt like the prophet Joseph Smith felt when he asked the Lord why he had been forsaken. For the most part I feel as though I lived a good, Mormon life. I never stopped going to Church. I prayed on a regular basis (multiple times a day). I went to all my meetings (from the Sunday block to the Saturday evening Stake Conference sessions). I spent some time as an ordinance worker at a temple in Utah. I was doing a lot of the right things. I was never perfect. But I was trying. Yet, I felt as though my righteous desires and prayers were going unfulfilled and unheard. The times I did feel the influence of the Holy Ghost were few and far between.

 

A few years ago, when I first encountered some of the honest truth about Church history (not to mention a whole lot of the disinformation, distortion and conclusion jumping that seems to come with it), I was in the perfect situation to question what I *thought* I knew.

 

And I did.

 

After a few weeks of wondering what I really knew, I came to the conclusion that I was going to believe, because I wanted to believe. I lived in this state of testimony for a matter of months before upgrading to a level of faith where I believed because it made me happy and I truly believed it was true. That is essentially where I have been for the past few years.

 

That all changed a few weeks ago. I had a prompting one evening that I ignored at first. But I couldn't shake it. I followed the prompting and the fruit of that choice has been undeniable. Whereas the the Spirit seemed absent for years (about a third of my life's worth), now I can't seem to escape its influence in my life. The word outpouring comes to mind. I won't go into specifics. Suffice it say some things can't be explained by improbable coincidence or chance. I feel confident in exchanging the word believe with the word know when it comes to my testimony.

 

The interesting thing is, nothing I was personally doing changed. I didn't all of sudden start making better choices. I wasn't more perfect than before (in fact, probably the EXACT opposite; my strength was actually waning). I believe, and the Spirit seems to accord (thank you, BRM), that the Lord purposefully withdrew himself from me. I believe it was my trial. It was a trial with a designated time period; not one I could shorten by learning some thing or developing some trait. The only way to end the trial was to hold on for the ride and wait for it to stop. It feels as though it was designed to try my faith and confidence in the Lord.

 

I share this because I know I am not the only one who has felt this way. Based on my interactions with many on this board, I think it is safe to say that more than a few of you, after having done many of the right things, have been left to ask "What am I doing wrong? Why are the heavens closed to me? ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING? ARE YOU EVEN THERE?" 

 

In my experience the Lord does try our faith in very real ways. There are trials of our own making. Trials of living in a mortal, fallen world. Trials caused by the adversary of our souls. But I firmly believe that there are trials of testimony caused by the Lord, God Himself. And if my life is any indication they come at the most inopportune times and conflict with the most righteous and good desires of our hearts; desires placed their by the Lord! Yet, if we can no more than desire to believe, living our lives with faith and hope, never casting out our faith or eliminating any chance for it to take root by doubt and impatience, it is my testimony that the Lord WILL (in my case has) compensate us in ways we can't comprehend.

I used to believe your last sentence. I really did.

But too many things over the last few years have left me completely defeated. There is nothing good left and no good to come.

The last straw was learning at work today that they plan to fire me. Lies winning out over the truth.

And there is just no coming back from this.

It's time to give up.

[The Nehor]

I used to believe your last sentence. I really did.

But too many things over the last few years have left me completely defeated. There is nothing good left and no good to come.

The last straw was learning at work today that they plan to fire me. Lies winning out over the truth.

And there is just no coming back from this.

It's time to give up.

Why? Will giving up help?

[CCRW]

are you alone raingirl?

[Avatar4321]

I used to believe your last sentence. I really did.

But too many things over the last few years have left me completely defeated. There is nothing good left and no good to come.

The last straw was learning at work today that they plan to fire me. Lies winning out over the truth.

And there is just no coming back from this.

It's time to give up.

"My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

" And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes."

[Kenngo1969]

I used to believe your last sentence. I really did.

But too many things over the last few years have left me completely defeated. There is nothing good left and no good to come.

The last straw was learning at work today that they plan to fire me. Lies winning out over the truth.

And there is just no coming back from this.

It's time to give up.

I can't compare our respective trials, and wouldn't (even if I knew more about yours).  Even two people going through, theoretically, the exact same trial are apt to react differently to it because they bring different attitudes, aptitudes, life experiences, perspectives, and so on, to it.  But, since I can only speak to what I know ... heeding what I felt was inspiration to pursue a particular course of study; the dog of a certain behavioral diagnosis alternately nipping at my heels and threatening to devour me whole nearly throughout that course of study; wanting to give up more times than I can count; choosing a light in the distance (usually it was the end of the semester) and telling myself I could go only that far and no further (often, I could identify with Francis Webster, who spoke of pulling a handcart across the plains and being so weak that he picked a spot in the distance which would be his place to die and then reaching that spot, only to feel as though someone was pushing his handcart and turning around, but seeing no one); somehow finding the strength to go on, even at the end of each semester; finally reaching the top of the mountain at graduation ... only to find out, six months later, that I would be denied the license without which the degree (no matter how hard-won) essentially is useless; living at poverty level, which would be bad enough on its own, let alone doing so with massive student loan debt; paying every single cent due on my student loans, even though a certain school of thought (which overwhelmingly is promulgated by people with more earning capacity than I have: if nothing else, at least they can get jobs in manual labor, in retail, or in some other position for which I am not well suited) holds that if one cannot get a job in his chosen field of study he should simply default ... simply stop paying; not being able to find a job outside my field of study because that useless degree hung like an albatross around my neck (but not being able to describe on a resume what I did with those years of my life without mentioning it); not being able to find a job inside my field of study because I'm not licensed; having my occupational choices even further circumscribed by a physical disability along with, perhaps, the behavioral health diagnosis; volunteering thousands of hours in various capacities, vainly hoping those efforts would lead to a paid position ...

 

I don't even know if this latest grand experiment ... pulling up roots; moving what is, for me (at least at this point, given that it is where I've spent so much of my life) far from home; abandoning my well-constructed support system, and needing to construct another (in many respects, though fortunately not totally, from scratch); not having worked for pay in 4 1/2 years, and haven't worked in a full-time, paid, benefited position for nearly eighteen years ; I would have preferred to get this job 4 1/2 years ago, when it would have been the logical step in a natural progression, and I'm not sure I even have the stamina to work full time (though it probably depends on the demands of the job); as I say, to borrow and slightly alter a saying from one of the Marx brothers, not being sure I would want to work for any employer who would be [fill-in-the-blank-with-questionable-adjective-here] enough to hire me ... will work.  I have a hard time believing that certain things would have fallen into place as well as they have if Someone weren't looking out for me, but still ... maybe this thing blows up in my face after six months or a year; maybe I come crawling back here in disgrace with my tail between my legs after it does.  As Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin said, "Come What May, and Love It."  And ...

 

Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained.

 

So often, we can't choose our circumstances; so often, there is so much that is beyond our control; the only thing we can control is our reaction to those circumstances.  Like Francis Webster, the only thing of which I still am certain is that the Lord loves me.  If I give that up, what else do I have?

 

As I say, there's no possible way I could understand what you're going through, but I do wish you well.  

Edited April 17, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Mystery Meat]

I have felt forsaken by the Lord for too long now. The burning question I have is why is prayer such an important teaching if He remains silent. When prayers for help, guidance, comfort, etc. remain unanswered, what lesson does one come away with.

I am left to muddle through on my own.

It is like playing Marco/Polo without anybody responding. At some point, you stop saying "Marco" and go do something else.

I figure the Lord knows me, where I am, and how to communicate with me, if He desires to do so, He will.

Sorry. Still waiting for my happy ending.

 

Hang in there Fly. Much of what you said, i could have said as recently as two months ago. I did not do anything differently. I just kept doing my best. I really do think that the Lord is trying His people right now and seeing who will remain. It is worth the wait. 

 

I promise.

[Mystery Meat]

I used to believe your last sentence. I really did.

But too many things over the last few years have left me completely defeated. There is nothing good left and no good to come.

The last straw was learning at work today that they plan to fire me. Lies winning out over the truth.

And there is just no coming back from this.

It's time to give up.

 

I got to the point where I no longer believed my last sentence applied to me. I believed that the Lord's promises were applicable to people other than me. I went ten years without a win. I was doing all the right things, yet somehow I couldn't do anything right. Hang in there Rain; you are doing better than you think and the Lord listens and cares more than you know. 

 

Above all else: never, ever, ever give up. Keep doing your best, even if your best is not as good as it used to be. The Lord will respond in due time. He knows what he is doing, and I understand how easy that is for me to say, but I have absolute confidence that it is true.

[Mystery Meat]

THIS is what we need in our Church!  REAL saints dealing with REAL problems, humbly and faithfully.  Perhaps, it's just my ward but I NEVER see this candor in my local ward, which is part of what makes it so hard for me to fully embrace this version of the Gospel; at least, not as being an option for ME.  Because I simply don't ever see myself in the people who get up and sing the Lego Movie theme song at every F&T meeting ("Everything is awesome! ...."). Being the ultimate doubting Thomas, I need to see your "wounds" because I don't follow anyone who doesn't walk with at least a little bit of a limp.

 

And while just about all saints will admit to "not being perfect," very few will ever name their perfections.  For example, I was teaching an EQ lesson on repentance.  I ask the guys if anyone in the room was in need of repentance for a recent sin.  Everyone raised their hands.  I then asked if someone would be willing to tell me what sin they had committed that required repentance.  This was about two months ago and I'll let all of you know when I hear back from the first responder.

 

How is our church supposed to be a hospital when no one will admit what ails them?  In the natural world, this is obviously absurd.  No one would show up to a hospital for treatment and then swear up and down that they felt just fine and start rattling off all the places that DON'T hurt.  But we seem to want to do that in Church.  Just about every F&T, some saint will stand at the pulpit and run through the laundry of things that are going well in their lives (e.g., kids getting married in the temple, going on missions, etc.).  And I'm tempted to shout, "Who cares?"  Not to be rude or because I'm envious of their blessings, but rather that I don't need to know how to praise HF when my bank balance is high, or when my wife and I are getting along, or when the kids are all doing what they are supposed to do.  I need to know how to praise Him when all hell is breaking loose.  I need to know how to praise Him even when it seems that He has forsaken me ... to know how to believe when it all seems so unbelievable ... and so on (sorry, the Baptist in me started taking over for a minute).

 

And I wonder why we have such an aversion to being vulnerable with fellow saints.  Is it because we think they will judge us and perhaps, pull away from us?  I'm new around here, so maybe that is the case.  But with me, that vulnerability has just the opposite effect.  I was genuinely touched by Ken's story and we have had one or two TINY disagreements on this board.  But now, after being touched by his honesty, I won't call him racist nearly as much as I used to (although I'm not making any promises).  Seriously, I have so much more respect for his faith in this Gospel because I now see that it has been tested.  In fact, it makes me think, "If he can maintain his faith after dealing with real affliction, then maybe I can drop my objections to the phrasing of the fourth paragraph in the blacks and priesthood essay." (once again, no promises)

 

Fair to say you and I don't agree on much, but in this case we do. I think there is a place for real, heartfelt and genuine sharing of personal struggles. At the same time I think it is possible to over share. Suffice it to say, we do a really good job of portraying a "Facebook" shell (only sharing the very best moments of our lives OR even manufacturing them) and don't talk enough about the struggles, trials and challenges. This has the effect of people thinking they are alone. That everybody else's life is perfectly blissful. This is simply not the case.

[rockpond]

For the past few years of my life (basically since I returned from my mission) I have felt cut off from the Lord. Many times I have felt like the prophet Joseph Smith felt when he asked the Lord why he had been forsaken. For the most part I feel as though I lived a good, Mormon life. I never stopped going to Church. I prayed on a regular basis (multiple times a day). I went to all my meetings (from the Sunday block to the Saturday evening Stake Conference sessions). I spent some time as an ordinance worker at a temple in Utah. I was doing a lot of the right things. I was never perfect. But I was trying. Yet, I felt as though my righteous desires and prayers were going unfulfilled and unheard. The times I did feel the influence of the Holy Ghost were few and far between.

 

A few years ago, when I first encountered some of the honest truth about Church history (not to mention a whole lot of the disinformation, distortion and conclusion jumping that seems to come with it), I was in the perfect situation to question what I *thought* I knew.

 

And I did.

 

After a few weeks of wondering what I really knew, I came to the conclusion that I was going to believe, because I wanted to believe. I lived in this state of testimony for a matter of months before upgrading to a level of faith where I believed because it made me happy and I truly believed it was true. That is essentially where I have been for the past few years.

 

That all changed a few weeks ago. I had a prompting one evening that I ignored at first. But I couldn't shake it. I followed the prompting and the fruit of that choice has been undeniable. Whereas the the Spirit seemed absent for years (about a third of my life's worth), now I can't seem to escape its influence in my life. The word outpouring comes to mind. I won't go into specifics. Suffice it say some things can't be explained by improbable coincidence or chance. I feel confident in exchanging the word believe with the word know when it comes to my testimony.

 

The interesting thing is, nothing I was personally doing changed. I didn't all of sudden start making better choices. I wasn't more perfect than before (in fact, probably the EXACT opposite; my strength was actually waning). I believe, and the Spirit seems to accord (thank you, BRM), that the Lord purposefully withdrew himself from me. I believe it was my trial. It was a trial with a designated time period; not one I could shorten by learning some thing or developing some trait. The only way to end the trial was to hold on for the ride and wait for it to stop. It feels as though it was designed to try my faith and confidence in the Lord.

 

I share this because I know I am not the only one who has felt this way. Based on my interactions with many on this board, I think it is safe to say that more than a few of you, after having done many of the right things, have been left to ask "What am I doing wrong? Why are the heavens closed to me? ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING? ARE YOU EVEN THERE?" 

 

In my experience the Lord does try our faith in very real ways. There are trials of our own making. Trials of living in a mortal, fallen world. Trials caused by the adversary of our souls. But I firmly believe that there are trials of testimony caused by the Lord, God Himself. And if my life is any indication they come at the most inopportune times and conflict with the most righteous and good desires of our hearts; desires placed their by the Lord! Yet, if we can no more than desire to believe, living our lives with faith and hope, never casting out our faith or eliminating any chance for it to take root by doubt and impatience, it is my testimony that the Lord WILL (in my case has) compensate us in ways we can't comprehend.

 

Thanks for sharing your very beautiful and meaningful testimony with us.  Amen.

[rockpond]

Fair to say you and I don't agree on much, but in this case we do. I think there is a place for real, heartfelt and genuine sharing of personal struggles. At the same time I think it is possible to over share. Suffice it to say, we do a really good job of portraying a "Facebook" shell (only sharing the very best moments of our lives OR even manufacturing them) and don't talk enough about the struggles, trials and challenges. This has the effect of people thinking they are alone. That everybody else's life is perfectly blissful. This is simply not the case.

 

So very true!

[Kenngo1969]

I would have been fine with an "attaboy" or a "peace be unto you", or "this too shall pass", something, anything, but silence. Silence is so ... deafening, lonely, and out-casting.

Check your PMs.